Best Bluewater Cruising boats?

[GHA]

These responses contradict an earlier claim that windvanes are "reliable", the best that can be claimed is that they are diy repairable.

As electro/mechanical science improves the chance of a trouble free atlantic crossing shifts in favour of an autopilot. Who wants unscheduled abdomninal surgery performed by an aft cleat half way across the Atlantic when hanging off the end of a rediculously pinched IOR corrupted stern of some mabby ancient Brit design like a Salder while such an unstable hull, fundamentally unsuited to downwind sailing, rolls 40 degress side to side.

One 20 minute repair in 15,000 miles plus however many thousand before i got it isn't bad going, flawless until a few weeks ago, north and south atlantic. No problem downwind either, even in light airs round the equator. Long distance with electric you're not only stuck hand steering for weeks if one component goes, also reliant on the charging system working and stuffed if you want to kid glove your old batteries 'til getting to a country where you can get decent ones.
Maybe a one off atlantic circuit where all the kit is new and there are plenty of marine services to fix bits there's a stronger argument for electric, but long distance further afield - wind has so much in it's favour. Self reliance is everything. And add to the negative list waiting weeks in a dirty port somewhere for an overnight delivery of spares to arrive to some random office on the island when everyone else has headed of to the idyllic anchorages.
Self reliance is everything

 

[jonjo]

Self reliance is everything

You make many good points and I don't always agree 100% with everyting I post here. However this online den of nautical Little Englanders with its mabby'esq outlook does occasionally need an injection of modern real world actuallity for balance.

 

[GrahamM376]

I find some of the comments quite amusing with varying opinions about what's best. My post #58 lists one guy's troubles on a crossing. Wind vane failed, repaired in Cape Verde, failed again on way to Bermuda. 1st backup linear drive then failed (most likely hadn't been updated with steel gears) and second backup, a tiller pilot on emergency steering tiller, couldn't cope in those seas. From his experience, hard to tell what's best

 

[tcm]

Why just not stay in bed? It's a bad, bad world out there.
When you cross the street, you could get run over by a car. The best perpared boat can still get struck by lightning or hit a half-submerged container at night.
The bullet-proof, perfect boat does not exist.
If I choose to wait till I've got a bullet-proof, perfect boat I'll never go anywhere.
I know my boat is 'less than perfect' in some aspects, but I'm still going anyway. We all do our own risk assesment, and after more than 30 years at sea - in one capacity or another - I like to think I'm more than qualified to make my own.

As for rigging: under previous ownership, our boat has been around the world once and crossed the Atlantic 4 times. In 2010 I had the rigging replaced. The rigger (who I trust implicitly) said that it was still the original rigging - 26 years old. His comment: 'Your old rigging didn't owe anyone a living, but it wasn't about to come down anytime soon'.
I'm not going to worry about my new rigging in the near future.

Um, you have completely mis-interpreted my response. It was YOU who questioned he validity of making checks - even a free rig check. Your attitude seemed to be Pah! who needs this or that check? Losers! Now you are mocking me, saying "why not stay in bed?" as though I'm an over-cautious wimp. I'm definitely not - but I know that once out there there's not much opportunity to fix things. And of course, you aren't a rigger, a dietician, a diesel mechanic - so why do you demand that crew or others accept your sayso regarding things in which you do not have pre-eminent expertise? Just buying/owning the boat doesn't mean a thing.

I've done lots of trips, across oceans and so on, so the notion of me "staying in bed" isn't valid.

BUT ... you are exhibiting all the traits of some of the very worst ocean skippers. That is, you've decided YOUR risk assessment - and nobody else's - is valid. Yet you will ( or should) have people/crew on board who might ask about the medical kit, or the tools, the spares and lots more. For some of these people, they will already have sailed with others who take the "I'm skipper" option. For a transat, that's not quite good enough. You need to find the best crew and try make THEM completely happy about things. You duck a free rig check and it isn't a question of maybe hmm thinking that isn't the best option - the fact is that you have proved yourself a total tosspot, right there.

Often, you will )or should) find people who know about their area of expertise often MORE than you do and the choice is that you listen and learn and act OR you pull rank and dismiss their input, as you have done here. And of course, sometimes you'll be right e.g. the rig check well, yes, if your rig is new, all fine, or should be. Although the way in which the rig is put together (swageing etc) means that one minute it's fine - the next minute a cable can pop out, even with brand new stuff. In fact the new stuff could be most at risk, whereas the older stuff already had a good beating, hm? But reluctantly perhaps, you'll have a rig check and then it'll be fine and then oh gawd you were right after all... which might then cause another blimmin argument on the next subject which also doesn't need checking either, I bet? See?

A good test for an ocean passage is - once you've briefed the crew, shown them where everything is, given them free rein to "get happy" with absolutely everything... you pretty much shouldn't need to be on board. You WILL need to be on board cos your crew will be the type who know nothing much and are entirely reliant on your sayso.

So obviously but sadly, your crew are gonna be the ones who are going to be fine about you ducking the rig check, or any rig check for the next what - the next 25 years really? The skipper says it's fine so that's that. Well, bollox actually - I'd like Mr Rig check who sometimes finds issues with brand new rigs, please?

Of course, it will almost certainly all be fine. Unless it isn't in which case whatever, no big deal - I won't be on the boat and neither will anyone else of much value to the human race, tralah! ....

 

[capnsensible]

These responses contradict an earlier claim that windvanes are "reliable", the best that can be claimed is that they are diy repairable.

As electro/mechanical science improves the chance of a trouble free atlantic crossing shifts in favour of an autopilot. Who wants unscheduled abdomninal surgery performed by an aft cleat half way across the Atlantic when hanging off the end of a rediculously pinched IOR corrupted stern of some mabby ancient Brit design like a Salder while such an unstable hull, fundamentally unsuited to downwind sailing, rolls 40 degress side to side.

How many times have you crossed an ocean on a yacht and what type of autopilot did you use?

 

[jonjo]

How many times have you crossed an ocean on a yacht and what type of autopilot did you use?

Once, the first ARC and with a windvane.

My point is technology advances and the world changes which is a fact many here fail to grasp.

I have clocked up about 4000 miles on my autopilot in Northern Europe, just one failure in the first year that related to a manufacturing defect associated with Raymarine's newly offshored factory in Hungry.

 

[steve yates]

Once, the first ARC and with a windvane.

My point is technology advances and the world changes which is a fact many here fail to grasp.

Windvanes are technology too are they not?

Never having crossed an ocean or sailed much at all, I would still hazard a guess that a mechanical system might be more reliable and fixable than an electronic one in a salt water environment?

I'm sure both work, I'd take one of each but I would expect a windvane to last longer over time, no?

 

[tcm]

Windvanes are technology too are they not?

Never having crossed an ocean or sailed much at all, I would still hazard a guess that a mechanical system might be more reliable and fixable than an electronic one in a salt water environment?

I'm sure both work, I'd take one of each but I would expect a windvane to last longer over time, no?

Yes, two AP's is ideal, both driving hydraulic rams, driving the rudder, switchable from one to the other.

 

[capnsensible]

Once, the first ARC and with a windvane.

My point is technology advances and the world changes which is a fact many here fail to grasp.

I have clocked up about 4000 miles on my autopilot in Northern Europe, just one failure in the first year that related to a manufacturing defect associated with Raymarine's newly offshored factory in Hungry.

I got fed up with my autopilot breaking, resulting in my wife and I hand steering across most of the Atlantic and back. So we fitted a hydrovane for our second cruise.

Have taken several other yachts around the Atlantic.

One had an unrepairable autopilot five days away from Antigua. Another took a wave down the companionway steps and shorted out the autopilot switch. Not repairable. we tried very hard!

Another blew a big hole in the exhaust, fixing that took a couple of days. No engine to recharge batteries, no autopilot.

A friend had the starter motor fall to bits on a previously very reliable engine a week from the Azores. No battery charging, no autopilot.

Thats why I prefer Hydrovane.

 

[dom]

Another blew a big hole in the exhaust, fixing that took a couple of days. No engine to recharge batteries, no autopilot.

A friend had the starter motor fall to bits on a previously very reliable engine a week from the Azores. No battery charging, no autopilot.

A portable solar panel with its own built in regulator like this might be an idea for long trips?
http://www.theecostore.co.uk/eco-store/folding-solar-panel-kit/

 

[capnsensible]

He now has a wind generator and solar panels! No idea if there are enough amps for a hungry autopilot though.

 

[Koeketiene]

Um, you have completely mis-interpreted my response. It was YOU who questioned he validity of making checks - even a free rig check. Your attitude seemed to be Pah! who needs this or that check? Losers! Now you are mocking me, saying "why not stay in bed?" as though I'm an over-cautious wimp. I'm definitely not - but I know that once out there there's not much opportunity to fix things. And of course, you aren't a rigger, a dietician, a diesel mechanic - so why do you demand that crew or others accept your sayso regarding things in which you do not have pre-eminent expertise? Just buying/owning the boat doesn't mean a thing.

I've done lots of trips, across oceans and so on, so the notion of me "staying in bed" isn't valid.

BUT ... you are exhibiting all the traits of some of the very worst ocean skippers. That is, you've decided YOUR risk assessment - and nobody else's - is valid. Yet you will ( or should) have people/crew on board who might ask about the medical kit, or the tools, the spares and lots more. For some of these people, they will already have sailed with others who take the "I'm skipper" option. For a transat, that's not quite good enough. You need to find the best crew and try make THEM completely happy about things. You duck a free rig check and it isn't a question of maybe hmm thinking that isn't the best option - the fact is that you have proved yourself a total tosspot, right there.

Often, you will )or should) find people who know about their area of expertise often MORE than you do and the choice is that you listen and learn and act OR you pull rank and dismiss their input, as you have done here. And of course, sometimes you'll be right e.g. the rig check well, yes, if your rig is new, all fine, or should be. Although the way in which the rig is put together (swageing etc) means that one minute it's fine - the next minute a cable can pop out, even with brand new stuff. In fact the new stuff could be most at risk, whereas the older stuff already had a good beating, hm? But reluctantly perhaps, you'll have a rig check and then it'll be fine and then oh gawd you were right after all... which might then cause another blimmin argument on the next subject which also doesn't need checking either, I bet? See?

A good test for an ocean passage is - once you've briefed the crew, shown them where everything is, given them free rein to "get happy" with absolutely everything... you pretty much shouldn't need to be on board. You WILL need to be on board cos your crew will be the type who know nothing much and are entirely reliant on your sayso.

So obviously but sadly, your crew are gonna be the ones who are going to be fine about you ducking the rig check, or any rig check for the next what - the next 25 years really? The skipper says it's fine so that's that. Well, bollox actually - I'd like Mr Rig check who sometimes finds issues with brand new rigs, please?

Of course, it will almost certainly all be fine. Unless it isn't in which case whatever, no big deal - I won't be on the boat and neither will anyone else of much value to the human race, tralah! ....

Several times you seem to misinterpret/misrepresent what I said.
I am still not sure whether this is deliberate or not.

1. I said we all do our own risk assessment. What I deem valid for us and our boat may be totally different what you deem valid for yourself and your boat. At no point did I argue that my risk assessment was correct across the board and that it did apply to everyone.

2. Neither did I argue did having your rigging (and other essential parts of your boat) checked was superfluous or reserved for the overcautious. I do, however, think little of these free rigging checks carried out in Gran Canaria at the start of the ARC. Quite often these are just riggers touting for business.
Indeed, a whole flock of UK 'marine professionals' migrate to Gran Canaria every year to offer 'support'.
To them, it must be like shooting fish in a barrel.
The time to checked your boat properly checked is before you leave these shores and ideally by people you know and trust.
I will also stick to my point that if you already crossed Biscay and a good part of the Eastern Atlantic without mishap your boat is more than capable of completing an Atlantic crossing.

3. You then proceed to go on a mini rant about crew management and making sure the crew feels happy and safe...
I am fully aware that you have made may Atlantic crossings with crew, but your situation is entirely different from my own. For one, I have just two ocean crossings under my belt - once as a deckhand on a square rigger when I was just a lad and one Atlantic crossing as XO of a naval sail training ship. For another: I don't sail with 'crew'. My crew consists of the wife and kids. We have been sailing together for nigh on 15 years. Everyone of them knows the boat stem to stern and everyone knows what I expect of them. To suggest that I would wilfully put my nearest and dearest at risk is a bit much. They trust me to act in their - and the boats - best interest at all time.
If I were indeed such a bad skipper as you suggest, I very much doubt they would still be willing to go to sea with me.
I am more than willing to accept that my character is an acquired taste and it is for that reason that if for some reason or another the wife or one of the children were not available to make the trip to the West Indies with me, I would sooner cross alone than introduce an unknown factor (crew) into the equation.

 

[tcm]

Several times you seem to misinterpret/misrepresent what I said.
I am still not sure whether this is deliberate or not.

1. I said we all do our own risk assessment. What I deem valid for us and our boat may be totally different what you deem valid for yourself and your boat. At no point did I argue that my risk assessment was correct across the board and that it did apply to everyone.

2. Neither did I argue did having your rigging (and other essential parts of your boat) checked was superfluous or reserved for the overcautious. I do, however, think little of these free rigging checks carried out in Gran Canaria at the start of the ARC. Quite often these are just riggers touting for business.
Indeed, a whole flock of UK 'marine professionals' migrate to Gran Canaria every year to offer 'support'.
To them, it must be like shooting fish in a barrel.
The time to checked your boat properly checked is before you leave these shores and ideally by people you know and trust.
I will also stick to my point that if you already crossed Biscay and a good part of the Eastern Atlantic without mishap your boat is more than capable of completing an Atlantic crossing.

3. You then proceed to go on a mini rant about crew management and making sure the crew feels happy and safe...
I am fully aware that you have made may Atlantic crossings with crew, but your situation is entirely different from my own. For one, I have just two ocean crossings under my belt - once as a deckhand on a square rigger when I was just a lad and one Atlantic crossing as XO of a naval sail training ship. For another: I don't sail with 'crew'. My crew consists of the wife and kids. We have been sailing together for nigh on 15 years. Everyone of them knows the boat stem to stern and everyone knows what I expect of them. To suggest that I would wilfully put my nearest and dearest at risk is a bit much. They trust me to act in their - and the boats - best interest at all time.
If I were indeed such a bad skipper as you suggest, I very much doubt they would still be willing to go to sea with me.
I am more than willing to accept that my character is an acquired taste and it is for that reason that if for some reason or another the wife or one of the children were not available to make the trip to the West Indies with me, I would sooner cross alone than introduce an unknown factor (crew) into the equation.

Very comprehensive reply, thanks. I fully agree with the idea of you going without taking any crew.

 

[jonjo]

1. I said we all do our own risk assessment. What I deem valid for us and our boat may be totally different what you deem valid for yourself and your boat. At no point did I argue that my risk assessment was correct across the board

Why am I worried?

Oh yes I know, "risk assessment" is an essential phrase in the arena of public sector incompetence, cover-up and vacuous defences in response to avoidable disaster.

Rather than convening some happy-clappy liberal risk assessment committee and high-fiving each other across the saloon table, why not get your wife to hoist you up the mast for a routine rig check. Then crawl into the rudderstock space with a torch and spend 10 minutes speculatively looking around for signs of trouble.

 

[GHA]

......, why not get your wife to hoist you up the mast for a routine rig check. Then crawl into the rudderstock space with a torch and spend 10 minutes speculatively looking around for signs of trouble.

You mean, do your own risk assessment...

 

[tcm]

Why am I worried?

Oh yes I know, "risk assessment" is an essential phrase in the arena of public sector incompetence, cover-up and vacuous defences in response to avoidable disaster.

Rather than convening some happy-clappy liberal risk assessment committee and high-fiving each other across the saloon table, why not get your wife to hoist you up the mast for a routine rig check. Then crawl into the rudderstock space with a torch and spend 10 minutes speculatively looking around for signs of trouble.

I agree. But if the engine was ok getting us all the way here, it's BOUND to be ok, isn't it? Course it is!...

 

[GrahamM376]

I agree. But if the engine was ok getting us all the way here, it's BOUND to be ok, isn't it? Course it is!...

That's what we all think until it stops unexpectedly

 

[geem]

While the article does not capture the independent sailors' preferences, it does reflect an inevitable trend that moire and more people will use modern boats for all sorts of reasons. it is inevitable because old style boats are wearing out and the numbers available in relation to the number of people taking up ocean voyaging is declining. The growth in numbers is from non UK sailors who do not have access (nor nostalgic attraction) to old British boats. The cost of the latest boats is just a reflection of growing affluence which leads people to have larger amounts of disposable income to spend on boats.

The real lesson is in the narrative that accompanies the "stats" - and that is modern boats make very satisfactory ocean cruisers.

Sat at anchor here in Dominica there are a surprising number of French steel boats that are set up for ocean sailing. The ARC probably doesn't attract so many French but a lot cross in these home built steel yachts.
I suspect the ARC has a high percentage of new ocean sailers who choose a production boat for their adventure. I wonder what boat they would choose once they had crossed West To East across the Atlantic? The return trip is a different beast which may explain why so many return on a ship. Having done both ways our second ocean sailing yacht was a little more tailered to ocean sailing and living on the anchor than a production yacht. We haven't been into a marina other than to buy diesel for 14 months and that's just the way we like it.
The very experienced sailers we have met that have circumnavigated have specific ideas about what they want out of a yacht and it is rarely delivered in a production yacht.
I wouldn't judge the list in the article as definitive. There are a few good yachts in the list and a few I would never consider for ocean sailing when the going gets tough.

 

[Lyndsey Doyle]

... a few I would never consider for ocean sailing when the going gets tough.

Dear Geem, I wonder if you would be kind enough to mention them by name? Or would that be just too incendiary! LD

 

[geem]

Dear Geem, I wonder if you would be kind enough to mention them by name? Or would that be just too incendiary! LD

I think that may ruin a couple of good friendships.
These boats have very poor layout below for bashing to windward. No handholds, no adequate sea berths, poor galley design that in my mind would make preparing any food when the seas pick up, impossible. Very exposed cockpits where you would spend all your time soaked to the skin. I could go on but you get the idea. They do however make lovely boats to lounge about in good weather. Everything is a compromise.