Belgian flag used by Spanish yachts

[Irish Rover]

Not a dodge. Perfectly legal as Delaware only requires the corporation to be resident, not the shareholders. Same in principle as the UK Part 1, but less onerous paperwork. As said a way for Turks to avoid high local taxes, but comes with some constraints on usage as I understand it.

There was an amnesty last year which allowed Turkish citizens and residents who had foreign flagged yachts to transfer to the Turkish register. You just had to pay a small fee to the Harbour Master's Office, 1% VAT on the value of the boat and an agents fee. It cost me about €750 total to transfer my Irish flagged boat and I was then able to sell it to a Turkish buyer. The scheme is still open for boats which were owned by Turkish citizens/residents prior to 24 January 2017. Otherwise it is almost impossible to register a second hand boat in Turkey. Most of the Delaware boats in my local marina availed of the amnesty and there are very few of them left. As far as I understand it Delaware or any other State registration in the USA is not actually a valid form of registration outside US waters. I believe only USCG is acceptable internationally. It is widely rumoured here in Turkey that the authorities are planning to crack down on Delaware registrations and may impound boats until they secure a proper international registration or pay around 70% tax to get Turkish registration if they don't qualify for the amnesty.

 

[GTom]

The only way Turkey can enforce that, is prohibiting its citizens to own a foreign company and use company assets in Turkey. I suspect this would go much further than pleasure craft operation though...

 

[Irish Rover]

The only way Turkey can enforce that, is prohibiting its citizens to own a foreign company and use company assets in Turkey. I suspect this would go much further than pleasure craft operation though...

I think you're missing the point. State registration in the USA is recognised nationally in the USA but only United States Coast Guard registration is valid internationally. This is not just about Turkey. Same applies in all other countries in Europe [I know nothing about the rules in North America but it wouldn't surprise me if Canada, Mexico etc recognise US state registration. I could be wrong but I think that the Delaware registration requires that the boat be in Delaware waters for at least 60 days in the year.

 

[jeanne]

I saw an interesting snippet in the Spanish press a few years ago. There was a raid on an examination for the spanish sailing qualification, clearly after a tip-off.
Of a class of about 20 candidates, a few were straight, some were being taken by ´ringers´, someone sitting the exam for someone else, and the rest were being coached by someone outside, via bluetooth type earpieces!

 

[GTom]

I think you're missing the point. State registration in the USA is recognised nationally in the USA but only United States Coast Guard registration is valid internationally. This is not just about Turkey. Same applies in all other countries in Europe [I know nothing about the rules in North America but it wouldn't surprise me if Canada, Mexico etc recognise US state registration. I could be wrong but I think that the Delaware registration requires that the boat be in Delaware waters for at least 60 days in the year.

That's correct, the Turkish gov.t has an easy legal ground then. BTW lots of small registrations are accepted worldwide, like the British SSR, Swedish sxk, etc.

 

[Irish Rover]

Yes but they are all National schemes and that's the difference. Can you imagine turning up in Athens with a certificate issued by the Norfolk council.

 

[Tin Tin]

Maybe there are corporate stuctures involved in the offers of various agencies then...

Detailed requirements here, if my rusty French is right, 50% must be owned by a belgian national or 100% by a belgian corporation:

https://mobilit.belgium.be/fr/navigation/navigation_de_plaisance/bateau/immatriculation

Nothing wrong with your rusty French

But, as you can see there ARE residency/nationality requirements.
What I could learn from a friendly Gendarme Maritime in Dieppe last year was that France put a lot of pressure on Belgium to make the conditions to qualify for Belgian registry a lot stricter.
The link seems to confirm this.

 

[GTom]

There isn't much left then... Offshore flags for those, who are not EU-resident and prepare for more paperwork/curiosity from the authorities. And keep all marina bills in case the boat is VAT paid...

The Dutch flag is interesting too, but AFAIK the cheaper option is limited to Europe, no idea if it's accepted Overseas, the Worldwide option is prohibitively expensive.

 

[Tranona]

Yes but they are all National schemes and that's the difference. Can you imagine turning up in Athens with a certificate issued by the Norfolk council.

Think you are going off beam here. Flag State registrations (including Delaware) are acceptable internationally - That is their purpose. This does not necessarily mean that individual states cannot prohibit its citizens from using another register. Norfolk council (nor any other council) does not register boats, although many harbour or river management authorities do require boats to be registered to use them. However, this is nothing to do with Flag State registration.

 

[BrianH]

Nothing wrong with your rusty French

But, as you can see there ARE residency/nationality requirements.
What I could learn from a friendly Gendarme Maritime in Dieppe last year was that France put a lot of pressure on Belgium to make the conditions to qualify for Belgian registry a lot stricter.
The link seems to confirm this.

Yes, the residency requirement is a relatively new change to the Belgium registration. This has caused problems for a couple of Italians I know in my marina whose yachts are Belgian-flagged. They are unlikely to be able to renew their registration when the current 5-year period expires.

 

[GTom]

Yes, the residency requirement is a relatively new change to the Belgium registration. This has caused problems for a couple of Italians I know in my marina whose yachts are Belgian-flagged. They are unlikely to be able to renew their registration when the current 5-year period expires.

They might try Malta, or some other country that doesn't need residency for registration. The Dutch register is open, however I am not sure if their cheaper option is accepted worldwide. The full Dutch registration is quite pricey.

 

[Irish Rover]

Think you are going off beam here. Flag States registrations are acceptable internationally - that is their purpose. this does not necessarily mean that individual states cannot prohibit its citizens from using another register. Norfolk council (nor any other council) does not register boats, although many harbour or river management authorities do require boats to be registered to use them. However, this is nothing to do with Flag State registration.

I am aware you are an expert on such issues and I'm loathe to debate it with you. This arose because of a comment earlier from another poster about the number of Delaware flagged boats in Turkey. I'm not very well up on the correct terminology but as far as I'm aware state registration in the USA [EG Delaware] is valid only in the USA [or possibly North America] and the only form of internationally recognised registration is US Coast Guard registration. Am I wrong about this?

 

[JumbleDuck]

I am aware you are an expert on such issues and I'm loathe to debate it with you. This arose because of a comment earlier from another poster about the number of Delaware flagged boats in Turkey. I'm not very well up on the correct terminology but as far as I'm aware state registration in the USA [EG Delaware] is valid only in the USA [or possibly North America] and the only form of internationally recognised registration is US Coast Guard registration. Am I wrong about this?

As far as I can see from http://www.dnrec.delaware.gov/fw/Boating/Pages/Delaware_Boating_Registration.aspx, registration in Delaware is more like registration for the Norfolk Broads, Chichester Harbour or, in my case, Loch Ken. It doesn't seem to be anything like proper flag state registration.

 

[BrianH]

A few years ago, the Adriatic had many boats with USA ensigns - strangely very small ones. Then, while waiting for the Ilovik island post office to open in Croatia, I was joined by a Slovenian national and we got chatting, when he disclosed that he himself had such an ensign, that he paid a Delaware company $100 per annum for his DL registration. This was to avoid a 70% import tax on new boats in his homeland, intended to protect the Slovenian boatbuilder Elan. Eventually the EU forced that protectionism to cease and the Delaware registrations faded away.

Slovenia naturally enough refused to recognise DL registration but Croatia accepted it, so Slovenes, like my new contact, kept their boats in nearby Croatian Istria, which was a much better cruising area anyway. Slovenia had good grounds in refusing to recognise the Delaware registration because, as noted above, a Delaware registration is a state registration, not a true national one, and applies to the waters of the issuing state’s jurisdiction*. Probably many nations and their harbour officials are not aware of the distinction and accept the Delaware registration as a bona fide US national registration. Those who use it should be prepared to take the risk and avoid those destinations that have openly declared it as illegal, such as Slovenia and Germany.

Croatia's acceptance of the Delaware registration had nothing to do with ignorance but a lot to do with residual rivalries and fishing-rights conflicts between the fellow ex-members of the Yugoslav confederation that rumbles on still today. Also, no doubt the revenue brought by their neighbour's boats had something to do with it - as with anything to do with Croatia, 'follow the money'.

Incidentally, the small size of the ensigns was dictated by the dearth locally of true US ensigns - all that was available were courtesy flags.

* "The Delaware registration is legal for yachts used on the waters of the State of Delaware only. All other Delaware registered yachts are registered using false or fraudulent statement that the yachts are used on the waters of the State of Delaware.
If the yachts registered in Delaware are used on foreign waters for over 60 consecutive days, the Delaware registration becomes invalid."
State of Delaware Boat Registration Regulations

 

[Roberto]

Re Belgium, two different regimes

https://mobilit.belgium.be/fr/navigation/navigation_de_plaisance/besoin_pour_naviguer

different registrations for inland waters and maritime navigation.
For inland waters, a "immatriculation" is required, it has a residency requirement
For maritime/foreign waters navigation, a "lettre de pavillon" is required, there is no residency requirement, just being EU citizens.

Fwiw, in real time (meaning these very days), "lettres de pavillon" are being issued to non-Belgian residents (a lot of French and Italians), as usual they just need to attach a copy of their EU passport to the application.

 

[GTom]

Sounds good, but why did the Pavillon-Belge guys say:

Attention, from 12 March 2012, it is not possible to get a Belgian flag certificate anymore, if your nationality is not from the European Union and that you have no address of residence in Belgium.

 

[Roberto]

Sounds good, but why did the Pavillon-Belge guys say:

That is for non-EU nationals: the sentence construction is probably not clear but it says "starting 2012, a non-EU national cannot register under Belgiam flag unless they are resident". Simply commenting that site faq, I do not know how it works for non-EU nationals, the site is probably right.

Otoh I have direct knowledge of dozens of French and Italians having registered under Belgian flag during the past few years, or recently renewed their registration, or obtained a new one even these first days of 2018.

In France it is gradually losing appeal (see previous message), especially for compulsory motorboat operator certificates, which now applies to any resident flying any foreign flag.
In Italy still a lot af followers: just as an example, the legally required first aid equipment in Italy requires one kilo of sanitary cotton, one kilo! Also, they wrote the percentage wrong (wrong position of the decimal point) on the law text so it is also mandatory to have clorexidine at a concentration which being used on skin would cause severe burns. Most people buy ready-made medical boxes, those selling them must state they are type approved, so everyone is having these totally useless/dangerous products onboard.

 

[Tin Tin]

Re Belgium, two different regimes

https://mobilit.belgium.be/fr/navigation/navigation_de_plaisance/besoin_pour_naviguer

different registrations for inland waters and maritime navigation.
For inland waters, a "immatriculation" is required, it has a residency requirement
For maritime/foreign waters navigation, a "lettre de pavillon" is required, there is no residency requirement, just being EU citizens.

Fwiw, in real time (meaning these very days), "lettres de pavillon" are being issued to non-Belgian residents (a lot of French and Italians), as usual they just need to attach a copy of their EU passport to the application.

Wrong.

Link to 'letter de pavillion' - https://mobilit.belgium.be/fr/navigation/navigation_de_plaisance/bateau/lettre_de_pavillon

Si le propriétaire est une personne physique: un certificat de nationalité et de résidence ou une impression des données de la carte d’identité électronique avec un lecteur de cartes .

If you are a personou have to provide proof of nationality and residency (which I assume is for non-Belgians) or a read-out of your electronic ID card (which I assume is for Belgians).

Si le propriétaire est une personne morale: un certificat de nationalité et de résidence ou une impression des données de la carte d’identité électronique des membres de l’organe de gestion ou de direction responsable ainsi qu’une copie à jour des statuts complets.

If it's a company proof of nationality and residency or read-out of the electronic ID cards of all the members of the board as well as copy of the company statutes/

 

[GTom]

They don't seem to say where those residency papers should come from, may also be EU/EFTA resident?

 

[Roberto]

Wrong.

Link to 'letter de pavillion' - https://mobilit.belgium.be/fr/navigation/navigation_de_plaisance/bateau/lettre_de_pavillon



If you are a personou have to provide proof of nationality and residency (which I assume is for non-Belgians) or a read-out of your electronic ID card (which I assume is for Belgians).



If it's a company proof of nationality and residency or read-out of the electronic ID cards of all the members of the board as well as copy of the company statutes/

It s proof of "European" nationality. Anyway believe what you want, it is a fact that Belgium is currently keeping on issuing "lettres de pavillon" to French and Italian nationals with residency in their home countries. See link to a 75page forum thread with tens and tens of Italian nationals/residents announcing "I ve got my lettre"; last few ones in early 2018; no need of residency, nor even a postal address in Belgium, all done by email.
http://forum.amicidellavela.it/showthread.php?tid=86432

Anyway, should anyone be interested, just try by yourself and see what happens rather than believing whatever people say in the internet