Bav arias

[charles_reed]

I had the opportunity of getting to know a nearly new Bavaria 37, overlanded here from Ouistreham where it was a demonstrator.
In view of the subjective opinions oft expressed on this (and other boards) I'd like to offer some balanced opinion and invite other (contradictory or supportive) views.
The hull is certainly slippery, in 8 - 12 knots of wind we were able to get along quite adequately at 3-4 knots.
There is a lot of form stability, but leeway is appalling, up to about 12 degrees. The Elvstrom sails are obviously built down to a price - the leech on the 100% genoa had already stretched and was motorboating.
The quality of deck and other equipment was good Harken winches and first class blocks, but general QAS was similar to Westerly in the bad old days (galvanised screws in instrument fittings, self tappers projecting through inside mouldings).
Anchoring, with inadequate length of 10mm chain, a very suspect CQR lookalike and no winch was probably not feasible.
Internally the wiring was extremely professionally done and well finished as was the plumbing. though drainage of the shower tray was totally inadequate.
Electronic equipment was good - ST 60 instrumentation, Raytheon chartplotter and radar (the latter desperately in need of calibration as was the wind indicator which was about 75 degrees out).

In short an ideal "marina cottage" with easily achieved light-air performance and lots of go-faster stripes, but not a seagoing cruiser, unless you spent a lot of time, money and effort on it (at which point I'd be seriously suspicious of the layup being sufficiently robust).

I've no doubt this post will last about 20 seconds before IPC moderators sieze and rend it.
I will point out that this has no connection at all with Bavaria in the UK being entirely a French boat.
Bernard Bosse's comment was "typiquement une bateau du vendredi soir".

 

[oldsalt]

Just delivered a Bav 32 on a 300 mile passage. Lovely to sail in light winds, horrible downwind in F6- broaching everywhere unless you really drop the speed. Lost of silicone beading inside hiding uneven joints. Cooker did not swing far enough on gimbals to prepare food in bumpy weather, bog seat cover fell down regulary.

Sails really crap- order without and source your own.

Not much room to walk behind the wheel, helm cannot adjust mainsheet himself.

Overall a nice marina hopping boat, but not for frequent shorthanded offshore passages

 

[zefender]

Re: TGIF

doh, c'mon Charles. Why should your post be banned? Seemed to be reasonable observations to me - goes well in light airs, good general specification, spoiled by cost cutting on fine points of finish here and there. But then you go and ruin it by name calling - "marina cottage" and "seriously suspicious of the layup".
Bit of a sting in the tail eh?

As you know, I, alongside doubtless others this season in Bavarias, crossed Biscay, found a few storms on the way, cracked along into wind and wave and returned safely to Portsmouth after nearly 3,000 miles logged - all of which I would consider "serious cruising". Niggles along the way, sure, but never anything seriously questionning the sea-going capability of the boat. Like all lighter boats, it demands to be sailed 'actively' in rougher conditions but that's not a particular feature of the marque, more an issue of modern designs. On what do you base the questions about the layup? Thickness? Bavarias have panels of Kevlar along the bows. How much thicker does a hull need to be to have equal strength, using conventional/traditional plastic build?

You have a lot more experience of cruising than me Charles. But surely the issues are:

If people want a boat for friday nights and weekend pottering, what is exactly wrong with that and does it make the boats inferior?

If it is true that these boats are less able to withstand every bit of might the elements might throw at them (a point I'd happily accept), what is wrong with balancing this with a more cautious approach to weather forecasts and bad weather preparations?

Given that these boats cost remarkably less than so called classics of a previous age, might it not be safer, assuming a wallet of reasonable size, to spend the difference on decent safety equipment instead of what I have seen all too often - sound looking 'classics' going out to sea with frighteningly poor safety equipment?

If you'll forgive me, your kind of serious cruising is very different to the kind of life the typical UK berthed boat might have. You will be looking for things that matter to you and maybe ignoring the issues that a family/weekend sailing family be look for. My point is that neither is better. Just different. A Farmer might think a 4x4 is the best vehicle for him/her. It might not be for dwellers of Highgate.

All the best, by the way.

 

[bedouin]

Isn't 3-4 knots in 8-12 knots of wind a bit slow? I would have thought a modern design would hope to do better than that.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: yup - slow

I thought my old Victory was slow in light airs - but we can at least do 4-5 knots to windward in 12 knots apparent (9 true) - surprised about the amount of leeway though - that sounds absolutely dreadful.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Pride and joy?

Despite my general dislike of Average White Boats, they do excel in many areas, and if those things are what you want from a boat, then that's great.

But Charles' 'Friday Afternoon' comment is a disappointment. Whoever (charter co's excepted) buys these boats, and whatever they use them for, the boat should be their pride and joy. To discover shoddy workmanship (or engineered-in least-cost manufacturing solutions) can only dent the delight of ownership, which is a shame.

I'm always intrigued by the number of nearly new (say less that 3 years old) AWBs that are for sale. I wonder if disillusionment with the product is a key reason?

 

[bedouin]

Re: Nearly new AWBs

I suspect a lot of the nearly new AWBs are people upgrading/changing to a similar type but a bit bigger.

A well maintained boat from the volume manufacturers will hold its value well for the first few years at least, and so it is feasible to change it on a regular basis. It may even be cheaper to replace it every 3 years than keep it for say 6 when depreciation may be higher

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: Nearly new AWBs

I'm sure in many cases you are right, and I know a lot of the brokers' details say "Owner trading up". But they're hardly likely to say "Owner hacked off" are they?

 

[david_e]

Re: Owner hacked off

..at least not in print.

 

[billmacfarlane]

Re: yup - slow

Agreed , surely it's quicker than that. My boat would be sailing at , at least 6 kts , assuming the wind is forward of the beam. I'm a bit surprised by the leeway . Do they do different keel options , e.g a deep lean fin keel ?

 

[Twister_Ken]

Don\'t forget NBG sails.

Poor sails will do for any boat, both in terms of speed and leeway.

 

[billmacfarlane]

Re: Don\'t forget NBG sails.

True. I've heard that the sails that come with the Bavs aren't particularly well cut. Sounds like the usual Bav problem - cutting corners to keep the price as low as possible . The boat sounds OK if you're prepared to do a DIY job on the rough edges and spend a lot on good quality gear to get the boat well specced up. Can't agree with your comments re lay up - I think it's be fine for most purposes. If you want to chase polar bears you'd be buying something else but for a typical offshore boat I'm sure she's be fine.

 

[billmacfarlane]

Re: TGIF

I've already made my point re hull lay up. Don't forget that just because a hull is thicker it isn't necessarily " stronger ". One of the reasons old time sailing caravans had thicker hulls was due to the fact that not enough was known about GRP. The Bavs sound fine as offshore cruisers if you're prepared to take the rough edges that can be rectified. Glad you're enjoying your boat.

 

[Strathglass]

Re: TGIF

We must face the facts. It is more cost effectiveto mass produce a simple product than to hand craft a more visually satisfying one. To do this the French manufacturers used their politicians a few years ago to set laws into being that helped the generation of a large home market. This allowed them to start mass producing when most other countries were still hand crafting. The advantages gained by this help from their government has not been lost and they have used this to their benifit. Market research has shown them where the volume markets are and what this market wants. Investment in research has enabled them to value engineer the products to just the quality required for that market by using whatever technology is available to them.
The result is that they produce yachts which meet the majority of the users requirements within their sector of the mass market.
How many people really intend to sail between continents? or go to other exotic places.
Much of the market is either for charter craft and new boaters.
Do they really know or indeed care if the sails are setting correctly? . Does it really matter if a few screw heads are showing?
The prospective purchasers can always (and do) ask on a forum such as this for advice on what can be added as 'essentials' before purchasing a new craft (if it will all get in).
There is nothing wrong with the present breed of mass produced yachts. They are built to satisfy a specific market and they do that very cost effectively, and they are very well engineered. There are bound to be people who, brought up on heavier more stable long keeled yachts will not enjoy sailing them and the details in their finishing. They will voice their opinions if given any oppertunity.
But there will be an increasing number of people who treat them as the norm and expect the lighter and more responsive handling.

It reminds me of a parallel process which has occured in dinghy sailing. I remember the past European champion in a 16ft hand crafted ply trapease dinghy who changed to more modern GRP craft for the following reasons. More performance, bigger fleets, more competative sailing and half the cost.

Let us hope that there is always a market for hand crafted individual craft but what those mass producers are doing is bringing down the price of new boats and this cannot be ignored.

iI personally like to sail all types of craft whether it be a dinghy, gaff rigged, long keeled, lightweight racing yacht or even a cruiser. It doesn't realy matter it's all sailing.

Iain

 

[tony_brighton]

As an owner of an AWB (Bav 34) - its perfect for what I want which is a bit of marina hopping on weekends and an occasional couple of weeks holiday when I can get Down From London. As a general rule its the other skipper and I looking for an easy time having a little fun witha good pub/restaurant at the end of the day. For this type of sailing the boat is very adequately equiped and built. We are certainly thinking about a year off in the Med with it although I wouldn't cross the Atlantic in her.

 

[brianhumber]

Re: TGIF

I agree, its all horses for courses

 

[halcyon]

Re: Pride and joy?

Or is the reason for the number of boats for sale the new car syndrom. After 2 / 3 years they are concidered old, and it is important to be seen to have a new boat.

Brian

 

[pandroid]

<font color=red>.....Elvstrom sails are obviously built down to a price - the leech on the 100% genoa had already stretched and was motorboating.....</font color=red>

My full-spec (Hallberg-Rassy) Elvstrom jib motorboated on the leech right out of the box. It seems to be the way they cut them. Dudicious use of the leech line is required in anything 14kn+

 

[steve_cronin]

Same experience on our Bav 42 on maiden voyage. I was looking all around for the two stroke diesel!

Steve Cronin

 

[pugwash]

Motorboating..?

What is "motorboating on the leech?" Sounds dreadful.