Basic yacht questions & contemplating buying Beneteau First 20 - good idea?

[AntarcticPilot]

You mention RYA level 1 and 2. Aren't these dinghy qualifications? The equivalent for a yacht capable of going places is Day Skipper, which includes navigation and things like Collision regulations on top of the sailing skills. There's a LOT more to taking a yacht any distance than the sailing skills that a dingy course will have taught you. When at sea you will be meeting other vessels including commercial craft, and must know the basics of avoiding conflicts with them. There's also the issue of things like traffoic separation zones, which you certainly need to know about for crossing the Channel; yachts have been fined serious money for not obeying the traffic separation zone regulations! Further, there's more difference between sailing a dinghy and a yacht than your post indicates; there is little or no chance of capsizing most yachts in anything but the most extreme conditions. A yacht will certainly heel and may become uncontrollable if not reefed according to the conditions, but it would be regarded as an extreme event even to be knocked flat - and a yacht would normally be expected to recover even from that.

 

[ian-]

A note on your experience, it is good that you are confident, and being able to consistently nail MoB manoeuvres is obviously a good thing. However I urge you to treat these courses as learning experiences and gain as much as possible from the instructors' knowledge. The real challenge of sailing is not going as fast as possible, but being able to deal with all situations effectively (which hopefully your dinghy experience will give you a headstart in). The reason that you will get general answers is that these are general questions, specific to each boat and the conditions it is in. For the fastest route, have a look a polar diagrams (though in general best way to be faster is to sail better, which comes from practice), and the fastest 'tilt' is almost always to have a flat boat.

I felt the instructor did not have enough experience, unfortunately. I was looking to understand conditions and the boat itself, and asked him what's the fastest route to that point X. I hoped for something like "with this wind / tide we should take left first for broad-reach, then 90-degree turn to close-reach, followed by final correction on beam reach". But instead he commented it's up to me and depends how you want to sail, could go either way, etc, etc. No experience in my view, so nothing to share.. Very disappointing and, you will not believe how frustrating: when teaching yourself you need these tips, that final 20% of knowledge to be good at it.

 

[jac]

Sorry I did not include these points. As soon as I get level 2, I plan to join local club and hire a yacht, to try it with the wife. It is perfect weather in Brighton now, so want to enjoy it at sea.

I would strongly support a try before you buy approach but be warned - Level 1 and Level 2 are dinghy / keelboat courses. Whilst they are great for teaching you how to sail, they won't cover the skills required for handling a yacht - e.g. simple things like use of winches, navigation, mooring, anchoring etc . If going down the yacht route - look for dayskipper , coastal skipper courses.

You may find a local place that will let you charter without dayskipper but most insist on at least that. The other alternative would be to do flotilla holiday in the med - getting to peak season now but maybe just after the kids go back to school you could get some bargains.

Local yacht club is also good. You may have lots of opportunities to sail with people and try different boats.

Assume that you and your wife are comfortable sailing a yacht ( rather than hobie ) then don't get too focussed on a particular model, just go for a reasonably modern design from a volume builder - maybe Bavaria, Beneteau, Jeanneau, Dehler etc - something from 29 -33 feet and made this century in good condition.

Probably best to assume that you will need to spend say £5k on tackling issues so look at boats that you can purchase for maybe £30k. The big expenses are new sails - ballpark £800-1000 each but depends massively on quality - standing rigging - Maybe £1000 - £1500 if done professionally - Electronics - £500 up to ?????? new engine - £5k - £8k fully fitted but again depends on the job.

That said a boat that is say 15-20 years old is unlikely to NEED any of that stuff replaced yet ( maybe rigging) so as long as you buy a good one ( get a surveyor to check) then you should be fine.

You also don't need much in the way of expensive equipment for the sort of sailing you're doing so again don't worry if the boat you fall for doesn't have radar or a freezer or a high end spinnaker. Keep it simple!

 

[jac]

I felt the instructor did not have enough experience, unfortunately. I was looking to understand conditions and the boat itself, and asked him what's the fastest route to that point X. I hoped for something like "with this wind / tide we should take left first for broad-reach, then 90-degree turn to close-reach, followed by final correction on beam reach". But instead he commented it's up to me and depends how you want to sail, could go either way, etc, etc. No experience in my view, so nothing to share.. Very disappointing and, you will not believe how frustrating: when teaching yourself you need these tips, that final 20% of knowledge to be good at it.

That is getting way above L2 though. Usually the fastest route is directly to it but expecting a discussion of tidal strategy, local wind shadows / sea breezes, longer term weather patterns, tacking angles etc to choose your route is pretty sophisticated stuff usually involving some fairly sophisticated software and or years of experience. He could have answered but I think his answer was probably an accurate one in the circumstances - I doubt he could tell which point of sailing that boat with that crew would perform best on so difficult to answer truthfully.

 

[ian-]

You mention RYA level 1 and 2. Aren't these dinghy qualifications?

The course was based on Keelboats and "Basic rules of the road" were covered in Level 1 - avoid collision, power/sail, port/starboard, overtaking boat, windward boat. Is this what you're referring to? Of course, if looking to cross the Channel I will need to take on Day Sailing / Seamanship Skills course too, for my understanding and safely before anything else.

 

[ian-]

That is getting way above L2 though. Usually the fastest route is directly to it but expecting a discussion of tidal strategy, local wind shadows / sea breezes, longer term weather patterns, tacking angles etc to choose your route is pretty sophisticated stuff usually involving some fairly sophisticated software and or years of experience. He could have answered but I think his answer was probably an accurate one in the circumstances - I doubt he could tell which point of sailing that boat with that crew would perform best on so difficult to answer truthfully.

Totally agree, but I was pointing at a buoy 2 miles away, nothing really complex. Sorry for another car analogy, but if one was looking for the fastest route to drive to Berlin, then there would be room for specialist software, experience, careful planning and so on, totally agree, but when that point X is 2 miles away in local waters that they should know well, he should really have something to recommend...

 

[jac]

The course was based on Keelboats and "Basic rules of the road" were covered in Level 1 - avoid collision, power/sail, port/starboard, overtaking boat, windward boat. Is this what you're referring to? Of course, if looking to cross the Channel I will need to take on Day Sailing / Seamanship Skills course too, for my understanding and safely before anything else.

Those would be the absolute minimum but is also extends into things like trawlers / fishing boats, vessels constrained by their draft etc. Whilst you correctly state that a further course would be needed for crossing the channel I would suggest that coastal skipper would be more the level. The passage from the IOW to Cherbourg counts as one of the qualifying passages for Yachtmaster Offshore and shouldn't be underestimated.

You mention the desire to go the isle of Wight. Given the intensity of the traffic in the solent, knowing the rules to at least DS level is probably more important there than at sea where there may only be 1 or 2 other boats to miss!

The other course worth doing would be VHF operators enabling you to talk to Marinas, coastguard etc.

 

[jac]

Totally agree, but I was pointing at a buoy 2 miles away, nothing really complex. Sorry for another car analogy, but if one was looking for the fastest route to drive to Berlin, then there would be room for specialist software, experience, careful planning and so on, totally agree, but when that point X is 2 miles away in local waters that they should know well, he should really have something to recommend...

I'm not sure though what else he could say. As you say it was 2 miles away. You don't mention the type of boat but assuming a keelboat then maybe 20 minutes. SO not enough time for tide or wind to change radically in most places. If upwind then some conversation about a tacking cone might have been appropriate but otherwise the fastest route is probably the direct one for most boats. The only exceptions for that would be boats where flying a spinnaker / asymmetric might make one direction faster so maybe sailing above the course for 5 minutes before bearing away to fly the kite might have worked but that is getting quite technical.

To use the car analogy, it's a bit like sitting on a dual carriageway with your destination 20 miles down the same dual carriageway andf asking what is the fastest way to get to the destination. There could be lots of reasons why taking a 4x4 offroad and going direct may be quicker or why cycling through the town centre to avoid the blocked dual carriageway could be faster but as a general piece of advice to a new driver on that road you usually just say head south down the road till you get to your destination.

 

[TLouth7]

Moving on from the issues with your last course (I hope you find level 2 more rewarding), are there other questions you have about selecting a yacht, given the input so far?

I would suggest that you prioritise having a look round a First 20 (or similar) as soon as possible, this will tell you pretty quickly whether you could hack the accommodations. If so then you can start looking for boats of that type that are for sail in your area (and be open about vintage - far better in my opinion to buy something a little older, that is ready to sail away, and have something in the bank for future upgrades). Alternatively if you realise that such a small boat is not going to suit, then you will have to widen your search to larger yachts.

If you were to join a club right now then you could get out on the water on a whole host of boats and develop a feel for what they offer. Time spent crewing a yacht is also invaluable and this is the easiest way to do it. In my experience any sailing club with regular yacht racing will have skippers crying out for crew with any level of experience.

 

[bitbaltic]

Agree with others that buying a 20ft daysailer for 35k when cruising, not daysailing, is your mid-term ambition is madness.

There is a lot to be said for buying the biggest boat you can afford in a condition that is acceptable to you right at the start. Your wife will thank you for the comforts and you will not lose on having to upsize much sooner than you think (factor that in).

For 35k you can buy a huge range of proper cruising yachts, Bav 32 34 come to mind, built in the last 15 years and quite likely in an interior condition you would not tell from new.

Berthing and maintaining bigger boats will cost more though, so if for your 35k you are thinking to be maintenance cost free, adjust the purchase price down to 25k and go looking.

Boats are never a sensible financial deal- they are never an ‘investment’ they are toys from a financial POV. Best to realise that when buying. That said, through the naughties the purchase price of my own boat (a Hanse 301) stayed close to its new value essentially depreciating by inflation.

Go looking at 30ft plus 25k cruisers and keep 10k for maintenance and berthing, your wife will be much happier and iow and France easily in reach.

Give up on the dinghy quals and thinking and do a day skipper course (practical and theory).

Just as an aside as you are looking for a sporty turn, 25k should just about get you a Hanse 301 in good nick and it will take a 20ft dayboat to the cleaners, round the cans on passage or when pouring sundowners. One of many options at that price. Have a look around.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Hi Ian

You are probably suffering from information overload by now, but I fully agree with everyone who has suggested you join a local sailing club, especially one which holds winter RYA onshore courses which provide a whole lot of knowledge that will be invaluable to you when you hav your boat.
Other advantages of joining a club include opportunity to see lots of different boats, the chance to crew on different boats and of course contact with other members who among them will have a wealth of experience.
All the best

 

[jwilson]

Thank you. Sorry for naive point, but how reliable is an older vessel? I would not own a 21-year old car (any make, any model) as repairs would be inevitable and costly. A good example seems to be a 20 year old car for £10k, e.g. Porche 911. You just know any service / repair bill is going to be a massive chunk from the price you've paid, 20%, 40%, maybe 60%...

But with boats - I am not sure. What am I getting into with an older yacht? - 20% repair bill is £7k!

Cars tend to go on and on with regular small bills (tax, insurance, tyres, servicing, etc) until a biggie hits such as a cambelt wrecking engine or a gearbox dies, at which point many 10+ year old cars become scrap.

Cruising yachts go on and on with regular bigger bills, (moorings, storage ashore, engine servicing, running rigging, etc.). However the engine is a smaller proportion of the value and GRP boats don't rust away or depreciate nearly as fast as cars.

A new boat gives you a reasonable chance of minimal equipment replacements for about ten years, though by then (or sooner) you'll probably want to replace the original cheap "factory sails" if you value sailing performance. About then or shortly afterwards you're into a rolling replacement of bits that die, mostly small in relation to the boat value. At 10-12 years you'll probably want to put on new standing rigging wires, and may want to update the electronics, if the boat has any. Tens of thousands of boats are however cruising around with 30 or 40 year old inboard diesels, quite a few with original instruments and standing rigging. Funnily enough apart from replacing an inboard engine, one of the biggest one-off replacement costs can be interior upholstery.

If you buy new you get hopefully a brief "snagging" period, as boats are not built in 100,000s like cars and don't have as consistent a build quality. Then you get maybe ten years of most things working well with occasional smaller bills.

The next ten years for most boats are upgrade time, in that period many will get new sails, new standing rigging and new electronics. Once that has been done they are in a "sweet spot" for a secondhand buyer. As the engines are probably only the equivalent of that in a 10,000 mile old car, you are getting a well sorted boat with probably a few cosmetic defects for a lot less than a new boat.

After 20 years or so boat values decline more, and some owners are less and less inclined to fix small defects as they arise. The hulls themselves are mostly probably very sound, in fact no-one knows just how long GRP hulls can last. Maybe only 0.5% of 1960s cars are still around, probably 95% of 1960s GRP boats are still here. Once you get into older boats there is a very big difference in condition between "looked after" boats and "a bit neglected" boats. A really good one can be pretty much as smart, shiny and trouble-free as a new boat, a bad one can be a money pit.

It wouldn't suit you, but this GRP boat https://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/boats/j77418/j77418.htm is over 50 years old, and my question would not be "could I cross the channel?" but "could I go round the world?". The answer is yes, if I wanted to, which personally I don't particularly wish to do.

 

[RichardS]

My advice would be go for a second hand boat 25 - 30 foot for the same money which has proper loos and probably a proper engine and could take you to France without a second thought.

When we got our boat my Wife wasn't keen on the manky old toilets so I took those out and for £100 quid each replaced them with brand new Jabsco Twist and Locks and changed the hoses at the same time. The fittings are all identical so it's a simple replacement. Whilst they were out she fettled the compartment so it was like new.

We are now 4 years later and still have two gleaming loos fit for the Queen!

Richard

 

[rwoofer]

I own a Jeanneau Sun 2000, which is very similar to the First 20, 21.7 etc. It is the boat that I have owned the longest, having owned much bigger boats up to 44ft. What that says is that the best length of boat is the one that suits your needs best.

I think it is so easier to be tempted into bigger boats because they appear to offer so much more. It took me quite a few years to realise that I was not actually making the use of the more and having to put up with the significant disadvantages. Most people cite cost as the biggest downside of bigger boats, but cost was actually fairly low down my list of disadvantages. The biggest downside in my books was complexity and hassle. I have enough of these in normal life and I go sailing to get away from these things. Bucket and chuckit means no residual smells, no having to clean heads and no having to fix heads. Small outboards are extremely reliable, can be removed for servicing and don't have the associated maintenance issues of diesel spills, stern glands etc. At the end of the season, I can pretty much lock the boat up without having to do any winterising or removing of soft furnishings. At the beginning of the season I can apply a coat of antifoul to the boat in an hour. When sailing I can always squeeze into harbours at the very end of the day, whether it is Newtown Creek or Yarmouth, whereas bigger boats need to be booked in or get in early. The list goes on...

The point I'm making is don't be swayed into getting a bigger boat because everyone says so. Your situation and requirements don't necessarily shout bigger boat to me, but that is assuming they don't change. I would spend a bit more time sailing some boats to refine your priorities and if a First 20 meets those requirements, go for a used one. If your requirements stay the same after a few years use, you can always treat yourself to a new one later on.

 

[langstonelayabout]

My experience (some of which is pretty bad) suggests that you:
1 - Don't rush into buying a boat: there are more boats for sale than buyers.
2 - When buying a boat, treat it as a long term thing: you must take your wife with you and she must like it too. Otherwise you'll be sailing without her and she will organise anything else to do for her weekends. She MUST tell you if she doesn't like the boat.
3 - Buy something a bigger. a 20 is a boat that isn't a dinghy nor a cruiser. You can't cruise it in comfort.
4 - Buy something a little older: More boat for your money and more comfort. I sailed my Jeanneau 25 from Brighton to the IOW easily in a day but it would have been an 'expedition' in a 20.
5 - Small boat? Make sure you buy a lift keel boat otherwise it will be horrendous to sell. I've been there...
6 - Chemical toilet? Don't. Sea toilet is a minimum and I'd recommend one with a holding tank too these days.

But happy shopping. Your route into sailing learning in a small boat is the best way as you'll understand what the boat wants to do and how to get it doing what you want. The Solent is a lovely place to sail, just make sure if you sail it at low tide you plan your passage, use your charts and use your depth sounder. (always plan on paper, don't just rely on the chart plotter)

 

[dragonvc]

There are 25-30 ft boats for sale of considerable age but have been really kept up together but may have some expense to have a boat that will not incur a great deal of expense for 5 yrs or more.Last year I bought a 28 ft cruiser racer which had in the last 5 yrs a new inboard Volvo engine,a new mast,new electronic instruments,new mast ,and a new set of racing sails and new Jabsco toilet.The downside is the interior needs a proper updating but cost would be estimate of £3,000 but paid £9000 for boat ,resale value not dissimilar but a relatively unknown make but a good designer.
The boat is 1977 built crossed Channel with no problems,is fast for its size beating many fast cruising 35 ft boats less than 5 yr old in two Round the Island Races.My crew like sailing it.
When I was looking to buy there were others for sale that had good engine sails etc but a realistic price in today's market was available with patience or just make a low offer as if seller wants the cash there is always outgoings even if just sat on the hard in a boatyard.If the boat you require is to go cruising look at cruiser racers as they are very suitable provided they are reefed well and provide a better sailing experience.

 

[Balbas]

Back in the dim and distant past when I did my dinghy quals, RYA 1 & 2 were billy basic and both were covered easily in a single week. The we moved on to RYA 3 & 4 (or 'advanced skills' as we were told at the time), which was a further week. IIRC part of 3 & 4 was an intro to racing - which is probably where you'd get your 'fastest course' lesson. My memory of it all was that it was OK for dinghy sailing, but Day Skipper was much more useful for 'big' boat sailing.

Without meaning to seem rude (because I've been there too as a younger man), I think you may be a bit over confident and that perhaps you don't know what you don't know. I remember 'teaching' myself to fly using a book and a flight sim. And then scaring the daylights out of my instructor. I know that it's hard to slow down if you're a 'learn by doing' type, but I've found that it really does work.

So what I'm suggesting is go do a dayskipper course (with dinghy sailing behind you don't need to do comp crew I'd argue), or volunteer as crew at your local sailing club. I suspect you'll learn quite a lot quite quickly and then when the time comes to buy your shiny new toy, you'll be better placed to enjoy sailing it.

 

[shan]

Don't rule out older boats. We have a Beneteau First 26 and there is absolutely nothing wrong with her. We did update the interior: refrigerated the ice box, changed the chemical loo for an electric flush loo, replaced the headlining, added Eberspacher heating and changed a few other bits and bobs. The result is a good compromise because I like my home luxuries and Mr Shan wanted to go sailing. We have since changed to a motorboat because being in the Bristol Channel, you are constantly fighting tide and time. We do still have the sailboat - hard to let go but we will have to at some point. I would consider the environment in which you want to sail because time and tide are such big factors.

 

[Jungle Jim]

Sorry I did not include these points. As soon as I get level 2, I plan to join local club and hire a yacht, to try it with the wife. It is perfect weather in Brighton now, so want to enjoy it at sea.

That might be a baptism of fire! My entry to big boat sailiing was dinghy L1 and 2, then a keelboat conversion plus all sorts of extra dinghy courses. The first time I set foot on a yacht I realised that there was a vast amount I still did not know. If you get the chance before hiring try and crew with someone, that way you get some experience of the real world stuff with someone experienced on board. Plus it`s good fun (at least with everyone I crewed for)

I am with you on your instructor, I would have expected more discussion if I had asked that question on my courses. The instructors I had might have been as young but all were experienced racers and would have answered I suspect with discussion on sail trim for conditions and best combination of points of sail to reach the destination.

 

[William_H]

All the above advice is good. Sail boats are not like cars. The fibreglass hulls tend to last forever. All the rest can and will be replaced over time but in a cost effective way. My own boat is 35 years old. No real problems with the age but most items have been replaced multiple times. Mast rigging sails ropes windows etc. Around here there were in the 70s 5 or 6 boat builders pushing out a lot of GRP sail boats. The builders have all disappeared because the boats they built are still good and people are not buying new. Improvements of design are only small.
The trick is to buy your last boat first. Or at least one you will be satisfied with for a long time. Now this is difficult because you don't know how much you will use it, how much you will love sailing and how your partner and friends like it.
One thing for sure is that boats shrink when you put them in the water. Huge out of the water but seeming tiny when you get out to sea. The only reason for buying a 20 or so ft boat is that it can be trailered. This can be a huge advantage. If you do not want to do that then 24 to 27ft is far more comfortable faster and roomier than 20ft. But even then bigger is better.
I have a 21ft which I have owned for 34 years. It suits me because it goes on a trailer but I keep it on a mooring all summer and bring it home for winter where I love pottering around with it fixing things up. Now it is definitely my last boat. However I still don't know if the boat (size) dictates the type of sailing I do or if I have the right boat for what I want. So my sailing is restricted to short estuary sailing usually only 3 hrs. But then when I was younger we did several days camping with family of 4. Certainly any size boat will do anything if you are robust enough to put up with harsh conditions. So as said unless you specifically want to trailer the boat then go for much bigger second hand and get into the DIY maintenance. PS I am a fan of outboard power for a sail boat. But actually I leave my motor home and rely entirely on sail. But not every one can do that. good luck olewill