Bali 4.6 blue water or not?

[Neeves]

Yep, I think the mistake that some people make when comparing cats and monohulls is length for length they are very different. Lots of marinas charge at least 1.5 times the monohull rate due to the beam of a cat. Cats new cost a lot more than a monohull of the same length. If you compare on the basis of cost new rather than equal length then you get a lot bigger monohull for the cost of a cat. A 50ft monohull has a huge amount of volume and is very spacious and comfortable at anchor but costs less in a marina berth than a 40ft cat. Like you say horses for courses.

I did some windage measurements of cats vs monos. I was given the detailed drawing of a number of Bavarias and I had the same for our catamaran. My conclusion was that looking at both beam and length a Bav 45 had the same windage as our 38' cat. Now there are cats and cats - and Monos and Monohulls - a Lagoon is very different to our cat and a Deck Saloon Moody very different to the 'cruiser'? version of the Moody - as based on. the Hanse iterations. The other thing I noted was that if you stripped out the weight of the Bav keel the Lightwave and Bav 45 were a similar weight - so maybe contained a similar amount of fibre glass - I appreciate this is crude and worthy of a critical thread sponsored by acidic comment - but the numbers are not uncompelling. And yes I am aware mast and engines are different

Similar volumes, similar windage. I have not done the price comparison - but suspect $ for $ offers different length but a similar level of accomodation. By similar I mean - more similar than different.

One big difference is that a cat accomodation is above the water level - you look out on the anchorage from the galley, berth or saloon.

Marina costs don't worry us - I cannot recall the last time we were in a marina - we don't like the costs. - and we are more comfortable at anchor than living in a marina (and there are surprisingly few marinas between Sydney and SW Tasmania - in fact south of Sydney - none). We have good anchorages, strategically located fuel wharfs (but no Tesco (or its Oz equivalent) - hence the need to stock up as part of preparations.

The danger with multis, not true of performance tris (which do not have the volume), is that it is easy to load them down - there is simply so much space. Load them down and they are dogs on AND off the wind. You need to be strict - and have an understanding, both of you, before you commit. The weight issue is why we have focussed on aluminium anchors, smaller high tensile chain and snubbers, why we have a desalinator and only a 2hp O/B. We also found the supplied self tacking jib a waste of time, unless head winds were to be 25 knots or greater, and replaced with a 150%, 35 sq m genoa along with the 45 sq m screecher (45 sq m main).

Go on many 40+ foot cats and you will find a full sized domestic automatic washing machine, yes easy to fit but.... etc etc

- its a weight, sail power focus - with compromises

Jonathan

 

[Chiara’s slave]

We don't do oceans - so we can be picky.

If its up wind, we don't move. Go for another walk, fish - a cruising multi compromising comfort at anchor with performance will be a dog upwind. If I were sailing a monohull upwind - I would want to be on the helm - you cannot do that with a multi (one hull too many).

We are sailing coastal waters - we can pick and choose. We sail south from Sydney to the bottom SE corner of Oz, sail across Bass Strait to NW Tasmania and then south down Tasmania's west coast to the south west of Tas. Crossing oceans is different.

I am sure there are better multihulls to sail upwind - but they would sacrifice comfort at anchor.

Horses for courses

Jonathan

Ours is fast upwind, we managed a VMG average from Poole to Cowes of well over 8 knots, in 15 knots true, wind right on the nose from Bournemouth onwards. Even monos with black sails were left trailing. But as you will know, creature comforts are a bit lacking, and we’re carrying 50 litres of water and max 20 of fuel.

 

[Neeves]

Ours is fast upwind, we managed a VMG average from Poole to Cowes of well over 8 knots, in 15 knots true, wind right on the nose from Bournemouth onwards. Even monos with black sails were left trailing. But as you will know, creature comforts are a bit lacking, and we’re carrying 50 litres of water and max 20 of fuel.

I don't know 'yours' but we have many Corsairs nearby. Don't feel insulted by I liken them in terms of accomodation to a J 24 and performance to a J24 on steroids (I liked J24s). If I was young I'd really hanker after one like 'yours'.

Yours and ours are both multis - but chalk and cheese - both have their place.

Jonathan

 

[geem]

Ours is fast upwind, we managed a VMG average from Poole to Cowes of well over 8 knots, in 15 knots true, wind right on the nose from Bournemouth onwards. Even monos with black sails were left trailing. But as you will know, creature comforts are a bit lacking, and we’re carrying 50 litres of water and max 20 of fuel.

Wow! We use 50 litres of water per day with two of us onboard. Very different us of our boats. Ours is a floating home. Yours is a speed machine?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Wow! We use 50 litres of water per day with two of us onboard. Very different us of our boats. Ours is a floating home. Yours is a speed machine?

Theres little on board to use water for. No shower, the heads uses salt water, so it’s a bit of tea, washing up and hand washing.

 

[Zing]

Looking for our round the world boat and saw the Bali 4.6 catamaran at the Southampton show. Quite a lot of innovations including no trampoline - but the forward deck extends to the front end of both hulls.

Will this flood or slam in big seas? Is it good for offshore, or mostly coastal / charter only?

I’m seriously contemplating a similar purchase. Bali are totally off my shopping list as are any boat where bulkheads are not fully laminated for the reasons of seaworthiness, noise, peace of mind, and long life of the boat. Also in the case of the Bali, sailing performance will be another downside. With a low bridge deck will slam. I don’t like the vulnerable patio doors also. Of course they can do the job and some important bits of it excellently, like sitting at anchor, but I doubt they are the best choice for the job you described. Unfortunately if you want one of the better built cats the waiting list is truly ridiculous right now, up to 4-5 years, such is the craziness of the global economy.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

May I refer you again to Dazcat. Darren spent lockdowns laminating hulls, I believe. He is therefore in a position to offer 2023 delivery for some of his range, 1295 in particular.

 

[Zing]

May I refer you again to Dazcat. Darren spent lockdowns laminating hulls, I believe. He is therefore in a position to offer 2023 delivery for some of his range, 1295 in particular.

It says 2024 for that one on their website. I did look at their bigger models, but price put me off.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Not when I looked just now

 

[Yngmar]

Balis are an extreme design. That is, extremely biased towards bay cruising in calm weather. Think northern Ionian in summer - light winds, no waves, beautiful bays.

They're also extremely ill suited to any sort of rough weather. We've crossed from Santa Maria di Leuca over to Korfu parallel with one. That part is always a bit choppy, as the wind usually either blows up or down the Adriatic with a long fetch perpendicular to your route. On our Bavaria 40 Ocean it was what we would rate a "little rough" ride. We rolled, but nothing dramatic apart from a cargo ship trying to mow us down. The Bali, which was berthed next door in Leuca the day before, so we got a good look, shipped their ladies by ferry to Greece and two guys spent the crossing clinging white-knuckled to the top of their fly bridge, nodding their heads the entire time because the high fly bridge really amplifies the pitching of their boat. Meanwhile we watched the show while eating a meal prepared during our slightly rolly ride (unlike them, we got a gimballed cooker to cope with this).

Last winter a brand new Bali was berthed across from us and I talked to the owner a bit. He said the front door doesn't seal tight and lets in water under pressure (waves or wind blown rain). The rear door, which on his boat was actually part of a rear wall that can be lifted up and locked under the hard-top is so drafty, it leaks in cold air because there's gaps between the foam seals and the sides when the boat is sitting still. On a stormy day with waves in the marina, you can watch these gaps open and close as the cabin top deforms from the waves.

You're probably better off on a Lagoon with cracked bulkheads

Since you mentioned Amels and Oysters, I'd go that way, and while I love the Oysters, after years of boat maintenance I'd love the Amel more, because it's just such a very practical boat. I don't know what the Catamaran equivalent of an Amel is, but it's probably expensive.

 

[EugeneR]

Bali are totally off my shopping list as are any boat where bulkheads are not fully laminated for the reasons of seaworthiness, noise, peace of mind, and long life of the boat. Also in the case of the Bali, sailing performance will be another downside. With a low bridge deck will slam. I don’t like the vulnerable patio doors also. Of course they can do the job and some important bits of it excellently, like sitting at anchor, but I doubt they are the best choice for the job you described.

Do you mind sharing which ones you know are fully laminated?

 

[EugeneR]

Balis are an extreme design. That is, extremely biased towards bay cruising in calm weather. Think northern Ionian in summer - light winds, no waves, beautiful bays.

They're also extremely ill suited to any sort of rough weather. We've crossed from Santa Maria di Leuca over to Korfu parallel with one. That part is always a bit choppy, as the wind usually either blows up or down the Adriatic with a long fetch perpendicular to your route. On our Bavaria 40 Ocean it was what we would rate a "little rough" ride. We rolled, but nothing dramatic apart from a cargo ship trying to mow us down. The Bali, which was berthed next door in Leuca the day before, so we got a good look, shipped their ladies by ferry to Greece and two guys spent the crossing clinging white-knuckled to the top of their fly bridge, nodding their heads the entire time because the high fly bridge really amplifies the pitching of their boat. Meanwhile we watched the show while eating a meal prepared during our slightly rolly ride (unlike them, we got a gimballed cooker to cope with this).

Last winter a brand new Bali was berthed across from us and I talked to the owner a bit. He said the front door doesn't seal tight and lets in water under pressure (waves or wind blown rain). The rear door, which on his boat was actually part of a rear wall that can be lifted up and locked under the hard-top is so drafty, it leaks in cold air because there's gaps between the foam seals and the sides when the boat is sitting still. On a stormy day with waves in the marina, you can watch these gaps open and close as the cabin top deforms from the waves.

You're probably better off on a Lagoon with cracked bulkheads

Since you mentioned Amels and Oysters, I'd go that way, and while I love the Oysters, after years of boat maintenance I'd love the Amel more, because it's just such a very practical boat. I don't know what the Catamaran equivalent of an Amel is, but it's probably expensive.

It's good to hear some actual experience and feedback - thank you.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Do you mind sharing which ones you know are fully laminated?

Privilege for starters...

At the other end of the scale, Broadblue...

 

[Zing]

Do you mind sharing which ones you know are fully laminated?

Catana, Outremer, Gunboat, Marsaudon, Privilege, Garcia (welded), Discovery, Dazcat, Seawind, Balance, Knysna, HH Cats. Apologies if I missed any, I‘m sure I have, but these are in my sights, as well as monohulls. I’m not stuck on the cat/mono question.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Catana, Outremer, Gunboat, Marsaudon, Privilege, Garcia (welded), Discovery, Dazcat, Seawind, Balance, Knysna, HH Cats. Apologies if I missed any, I‘m sure I have, but these are in my sights, as well as monohulls. I’m not stuck on the cat/mono question.

That being a list of what many of us would say are the best, it’s clearly more expensive to do. There’s nothing in the world that can’t be made cheaper by being made worse.

 

[Kelpie]

Wow! We use 50 litres of water per day with two of us onboard. Very different us of our boats. Ours is a floating home. Yours is a speed machine?

We went five weeks between fills last time, which works out at 13l/day for the three of us.
You probably smell better than we do...

 

[Chiara’s slave]

We went five weeks between fills last time, which works out at 13l/day for the three of us.
You probably smell better than we do...

That's about the same for us. We go 3-4 days. But as coastal cruisers, that is absolutely fine. We’d be hungry too if we stayed out longer.

 

[Frogmogman]

I rather like the current Nautitech range. They appear to be a bit lighter than Lagoons etc, but not so expensive as outremers etc. The reviews I’ve read have all praised their sailing ability. For sure, they are squarely aimed at warmer climes, with so much of the living space being outside. As to bulkheads, I seem to recall from the one I looked over that the structural ones were made of composite.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

As to bulkheads, I seem to recall from the one I looked over that the structural ones were made of composite.

I don't think it matters what they are made of. It's more important that 1) they are substantial enough for the job and 2) they are properly attached to the hull. Lagoons seem to fail on both with weedy thin bulkheads attached to the hull with goop from a tube rather than fully tabbed.

 

[E39mad]

I think Nautitech are now part of Bavaria Yachts. Nothing wrong with that and don't know if they are built to similar stds.

If you can find a second hand Freebird 50 I would jump at the chance! Only about 10 built (there were more but open cockpit charter versions) but boy those things were superbly engineered and well built.