Azimut 46 - new battery charger system plus service/house batteries, engines battery and gen. battery

[PaulRainbow]

To make the story short: We had been one night on anchor, we did not know, that where the irregular connenctions / switches from the generator bat. and the engine bat. to the service bat. system ... next morning, after 8 hours our boat was in an emergengy situation: gen battery down (10.8V) - no generator start!, engines bat. down to 11.5V and service bat. down to 10.5V ... ...: we could no more move the boat: no service = caterpillar electric will not start, no generator = no charging overall.
The solution was: the boat engeneer from a big yacht nearby provided an emergency battery starter => we could start KOHLER gen. => charging service bat. => start of main engines ... ...

But that doesn't make the system stupid, it's just that you didn't understand it and used the switches incorrectly, as per post #59.

A8 and A9 are emergency switches and should normally remain open (off). A8 allows emergency starting of the generator from the engine battery. A9 allows emergency engine starting from the domestics.

It is not a bad system, It's very common. I have installed similar systems on countless smaller boats where it was not standard. I do mine slightly different, in that i parallel from the load side of the main isolators, not the battery side. This has the added advantage that a dead battery can be isolated and systems temporarily operated from another battery. For instance, if the engine battery explodes it can be isolated using its normal isolator, the emergency parallel switch then connects the domestic bank to the engines to get you home.

If you are concerned that the emergency switches might be accidentally turned on, use key switches if they are remote solenoids/relays, or if the are manual switches fit ones with removable keys. Also, label all of the switches.

 

[Skipper Felice]

If you are concerned that the emergency switches might be accidentally turned on, use key switches if they are remote solenoids/relays, or if the are manual switches fit ones with removable keys. Also, label all of the switches.

It is not a bad system, It's very common. I have installed similar systems on countless smaller boats where it was not standard. I do mine slightly different, in that i parallel from the load side of the main isolators, not the battery side. This has the added advantage that a dead battery can be isolated and systems temporarily operated from another battery. For instance, if the engine battery explodes it can be isolated using its normal isolator, the emergency parallel switch then connects the domestic bank to the engines to get you home.

I will have the correct bat. isolators, as you say > and I will all do on the load side. And I will make shure, that on normal running conditions NOTHING is connected together for "something" or is not clearly indicated. All switching will be done manually with clearly labeled removable keys.
I thing what you have on your boat is the only valuable solution. I had to do a complete reengeneering as I only had the original base schematics from Azimut 2000 - but this was changed x x x times over the last 20 years ... ...

If you are concerned that the emergency switches might be accidentally turned on, use key switches if they are remote solenoids/relays, or if the are manual switches fit ones with removable keys. Also, label all of the switches.

The point is: They have NOT been correctly labeled / I had no real explanation / and in our emergency situation ALL 3 batteries were down.

 

[Skipper Felice]

I’d suggest investing in a jump pack yourself. It’s a good fallback to have and I’ve used mine to get myself and others out of shitty situations numerous times before.

NOCO Boost GB150

You can get bigger ones that would spin your main engines up with ease but they are more money

NOCO GB251+ Boost MAX 3000A 24V UltraSafe Lithium Jump Starter with Power Bank

YES ... I will order one as soon as possible ... ... In fact - the smart deckhands from the yacht nearby came with a NOCO xyz to help us!

 

[jakew009]

If the switches are used correctly there are ample options to start the engine or generator from other batteries. This was simply a case of user error.

Yes, but next time he can help some other poor sod in an anchorage with flat batteries

 

[Portofino]

The connections on my boat called “X over switch’s “ were spring loaded . You had to press down with your thumb to connect up the domestic to the engine batts . Also the back up geny batt had a spring loaded connection switch .
So you couldn’t permanently link all three circuits together .

With the two fridges they had a low volts cut off built in . So they didn’t drain catastrophically the domestic batts .
They also had a auto switch built in ….so when the Shore power was hooked up they automatically used that 220V and dropped using the domestic batts . The reverse happens when you disconnected the shore power .
You could have course turned them off at the console , we never did when on the boat .

In other words you couldn’t permanently link up the three batt systems .

We had a geny of course and normally when at anchor would run it for 1 hr in the AM and another 1 hr in Thr pm to top up the domestics .

A long day @ sea motoring the engine alternators top up the batts .

As I said earlier limiting factor on tour that dictated how long we could last without spending a night at a marina ( other than the weather ) wasn’t power it was water .

 

[prinex]

The "parallel battery" switch is also usually a remote switch and you need to keep it pressed so that they are connected together.

The idea of course is to bail you out in case a engine battery (or genset battery) dies.

So looks the previous owner went the cheap route and installed just a simple battery connector and that was it... Nothing new, I spent already tons of time redoing botching jobs by the previous owners. And more will come!

The most egregious... The azi would smell of grey water after taking a shower... Turned out the air relief tube was clogged and the inspection cover had no gasket anymore, it was just sitting on the opening... Now new gasket, tube unclogged, did a "soap bubble" test and all is sealed now - no more smell. Such an easy repair but the old owner did not bother spending 6 Euro... Or maybe he never understood where the smell came from...

 

[MapisM]

The point is: They have NOT been correctly labeled / I had no real explanation / and in our emergency situation ALL 3 batteries were down.

I sort of guessed that lack of understanding of how the setup works was the real reason behind that outcome.
I'm not saying this to blame you, though - let him who is without sin cast the first stone!
What I would rather suggest is that the configuration you've got doesn't seem bad to me, all considered.
I mean, I'm not sure in your boots I'd spend anything just to make it more user friendly and/or more fool proof.
Maybe put some clear labels here and there, if your memory is as bad as mine...
...Though I suspect that after experiencing a total electrical blackout (and understanding why!) you won't make the same mistake again, even without any labels!
OTOH, from a functionality standpoint, it does its job and gives you a good degree of flexibility, when used correctly.
In fact, I struggle to think of any modification which - aside from possibly improving the user friendliness - would allow you to do anything that you now can't.

PS: if you're going to replace the charger with a Victron inverter/charger, I'd rather spend a bit of additional money for a good battery monitoring system.
THAT would definitely give you a valuable visibility on what's going on with the electrical system, which now you can only run blindfolded.
But that would work just fine also with all your current wirings, without requiring any modification.

 

[PaulRainbow]

The connections on my boat called “X over switch’s “ were spring loaded . You had to press down with your thumb to connect up the domestic to the engine batts . Also the back up geny batt had a spring loaded connection switch .
So you couldn’t permanently link all three circuits together .

With the two fridges they had a low volts cut off built in . So they didn’t drain catastrophically the domestic batts .
They also had a auto switch built in ….so when the Shore power was hooked up they automatically used that 220V and dropped using the domestic batts . The reverse happens when you disconnected the shore power .
You could have course turned them off at the console , we never did when on the boat .

In other words you couldn’t permanently link up the three batt systems .

We had a geny of course and normally when at anchor would run it for 1 hr in the AM and another 1 hr in Thr pm to top up the domestics .

A long day @ sea motoring the engine alternators top up the batts .

As I said earlier limiting factor on tour that dictated how long we could last without spending a night at a marina ( other than the weather ) wasn’t power it was water .

The "parallel battery" switch is also usually a remote switch and you need to keep it pressed so that they are connected together.

The idea of course is to bail you out in case a engine battery (or genset battery) dies.

So looks the previous owner went the cheap route and installed just a simple battery connector and that was it... Nothing new, I spent already tons of time redoing botching jobs by the previous owners. And more will come!

The most egregious... The azi would smell of grey water after taking a shower... Turned out the air relief tube was clogged and the inspection cover had no gasket anymore, it was just sitting on the opening... Now new gasket, tube unclogged, did a "soap bubble" test and all is sealed now - no more smell. Such an easy repair but the old owner did not bother spending 6 Euro... Or maybe he never understood where the smell came from...

Momentary parallel relays are all well and good, but what happens when you get a catastrophic battery failure ? Suppose the engine battery has exploded, internally shorted etc, You can't use your momentary button now.

I would move the cable on the isolators to the load side of the parallel switches, this way you can turn the engine isolator off, isolating the dead battery, then turn the emergency switch on, using the domestic batteries to run the engines and get you home. Makes no real difference whether the switches are remote relays or manual switches. If you're worried that the emergency switches might get turned on by accident use key switches for remote relays, or manual switches with removable keys.

 

[prinex]

> Suppose the engine battery has exploded, internally shorted etc, You can't use your momentary button now

Also there is the issue why this happened, if this was a alternator fault causing the explosion not sure I would try to run this engine on the other batteries and get them also to explode. Also batteries will need to be paralleled all the time while running, if the alternator runs without a battery as a load this could fry your complete electronic on board...

Basically a nightmare situation specially if you have one engine only.

When I still had the trawler I remember seeing solution like having a electric 220v engine with a pulley that could be connected to the shaft so in emergency you could at least limp back home at 2-3 knots using the generator but looks a bit overkill..

 

[PaulRainbow]

> Suppose the engine battery has exploded, internally shorted etc, You can't use your momentary button now

Also there is the issue why this happened, if this was a alternator fault causing the explosion not sure I would try to run this engine on the other batteries and get them also to explode. Also batteries will need to be paralleled all the time while running, if the alternator runs without a battery as a load this could fry your complete electronic on board...

Basically a nightmare situation specially if you have one engine only.

When I still had the trawler I remember seeing solution like having a electric 220v engine with a pulley that could be connected to the shaft so in emergency you could at least limp back home at 2-3 knots using the generator but looks a bit overkill..

Alternators almost never cause a good battery to explode, it's usually a shorted cell. But, if it was a faulty alternator, disconnect it before starting the engine, it won't further harm the alternator.

Yes, the parallel switch has to remain closed all of the time the engines are running, that's the point of not using a momentary switch, i said this in post #68. The parallel switch parallels the loads, not the batteries, so you can leave it on as long as you need to.

Of course, if it's just a flat engine battery you use the switch to start the engine, then turn it off again.

Another benefit of this system is that it isn't restricted to the engine batteries, you can use it just the same if you have a failed domestic battery, use the engine batteries to keep the electronics running to get you home, just don't stop the engines until you are somewhere safe.

 

[Portofino]

Alternators almost never cause a good battery to explode, it's usually a shorted cell. But, if it was a faulty alternator, disconnect it before starting the engine, it won't further harm the alternator.

Yes, the parallel switch has to remain closed all of the time the engines are running, that's the point of not using a momentary switch, i said this in post #68. The parallel switch parallels the loads, not the batteries, so you can leave it on as long as you need to.

Of course, if it's just a flat engine battery you use the switch to start the engine, then turn it off again.

Another benefit of this system is that it isn't restricted to the engine batteries, you can use it just the same if you have a failed domestic battery, use the engine batteries to keep the electronics running to get you home, just don't stop the engines until you are somewhere safe.

Modern diesels electrotwackery ECU s need power . It’s surprising a lot btw to run .
Obviously a ancient canal boat Lister or mobo Gardner with a mech inj pump doesn’t.

In the circumstances you describe with momentary cross over switch’s that the engine bats are goosed for what ever reason , you carry suitable jump leads and connects . Disconnect the knackered engine bank and connected it to the domestic . Turning off as many domestic consumers as you can do without…..to retain power for the engines to get you home .

Modern engines ( my MAN s ) had a pretty comprehensive display and alarms so you could see the alternator outputs when running . More of a belt slipping thing , but nether the less if the charging output diminished the alternators themselves knacker , the engines ( ECU ) will falter after draining a lot of power .


I suppose with the lead acid trad set up ….the reliability depends on the maintenance, wether you routinely replace them or wait for grief ?
There are tell tail signs ….looking at there discharge rates particularly when unattended and the charger is off .

By way of example with Ferrari you get a new battery every 3 yrs @ service . No ifs no buts they just throw one in and add it on to the bill .Ok by big boat standard it’s relatively easy to do in terms of man handling, hassle etc .
I enquired once ( gently not complaining) and they said something along the lines of they get many cars flat bedded in and spurious phone calls regarding check engine lights , mysterious symptoms etc ….all basically down to a aged batteries . Not talking the traditional click at starting , this is way before that .
So it’s easy to simply put the batteries on the list of consumables rather than await breakdowns.

That how I looked at lead acid in my mobo boating history ( 19 yrs med use ) .
Timely changed , got a guy to do the humping and disposal every few yrs .

If the systems balanced , in terms of capacity, charging rate and consumption…..then lead acid with a bit of user know how works perfectly.

 

[MapisM]

In the circumstances you describe with momentary cross over switch’s that the engine bats are goosed for what ever reason , you carry suitable jump leads and connects . Disconnect the knackered engine bank and connected it to the domestic . Turning off as many domestic consumers as you can do without…..to retain power for the engines to get you home .

Modern engines ( my MAN s ) had a pretty comprehensive display and alarms so you could see the alternator outputs when running ...

And how exactly can this affect someone whose boat is powered by engines that, in the event of a catastrophic electrical breakdown, would keep running till they run out of fuel, unless you go inside the e/r and shut them down manually?
Which BTW is true also of the MANs powering my own boat, built after Fiammetta, IIRC - just to say that you don't have to go back in time as far as Gardner age, to find boats powered by proper engines.

 

[Portofino]

And how exactly can this affect someone whose boat is powered by engines that, in the event of a catastrophic electrical breakdown, would keep running till they run out of fuel, unless you go inside the e/r and shut them down manually?
Which BTW is true also of the MANs powering my own boat, built after Fiammetta, IIRC - just to say that you don't have to go back in time as far as Gardner age, to find boats powered by proper engines.

It would not like I said .
You would be surprised how much power “ modern diesels require ( or any modern ICE ) .

Obviously EDC that’s a give. but consider say a say simple stop solenoid ? Those that need voltage from the batt circuit to stay open energised to run . No batts = engine dies .

I suspect if you ( don’t try this btw ) run your engines and turn off / disconnect the engine batts assuming they are separate to any other power source your engines will stop . The alternator (s) will be killed as well with nowhere to dump there load(s) .

Hence carry leads and a bit of know how how to connect up the doms if for what ever reason your engine bank can’t function as it should . I never experienced this btw but would have I hope been able to figure out how to do this should a catastrophic thing have happened in the almost 2 decades of Med boating . I throw in Med as the ER temps are a pretty hostile environment s for batts .

Just pushing back the immediate dive into costly lithium and Victron this and the other , inverters etc etc at the first whim of a lead acid power failure on a sizeable mobo with a functional geny .
A power failure which is sounding like operator error ….so doubt will be repeated .

Btw all part of the fun of discovery with a new to the op used boat ….even a shiny brand new .

As said get the balance right between the batt capacity, anticipated useage pattern , the chargers , + pre emptive maintenance ( renewal) and they are fine . Talking mobos with genys here and a few hrs cruising/ day .

The marine insurance industry has woken up to fire risk with Lithium , even the extra hassle of getting yet another types of fire extinguisher to keep in date as well as “ certified “ instals . This agro is only going to deepen .

As far as learning the switches or labelling them ….with the spring loaded x overs there is zero chance of operator error .

I have had guys take mine to the yard , supposedly plug in shore power , del it back to the berth , put it back where I left it console wise .

Fly in to find it works , nothing dead , drained , inadvertently knackered etc etc .
Never worried “ Christ hope they haven’t switched this or that on “
Never wondered “ what state is gonna be in “

 

[petem]

It would not like I said .
You would be surprised how much power “ modern diesels require ( or any modern ICE ) .

Obviously EDC that’s a give. but consider say a say simple stop solenoid ? Those that need voltage from the batt circuit to stay open energised to run . No batts = engine dies .

I suspect if you ( don’t try this btw ) run your engines and turn off / disconnect the engine batts assuming they are separate to any other power source your engines will stop . The alternator (s) will be killed as well with nowhere to dump there load(s) .

My stop solenoids require power to energise them and stop the engines (if you disconnect power from them then they can't stop the engines).

Also, my engines will run, even when disconnected from the batteries (it's not advisable though).

 

[Portofino]

My stop solenoids require power to energise them and stop the engines (if you disconnect power from them then they can't stop the engines).

Also, my engines will run, even when disconnected from the batteries (it's not advisable though).

Some run for a while but eventually stop when the juice / power runs dry and indeed there are two ways to energise the stop solenoids . Depends on there age . I did say “ Modern “ and qualify that with indicative examplex of none modern .
That list of Gardner / Lister wasn’t exhaustive, nor should it be and iam not sure why the focus is now on expanding this list ad infinitum ?

I don’t want to give folks the impression it’s doesn’t matter if you goose the engine batts in a modern mobo it’s ok not to connect them up to alternative power .
I agree it’s not advisable to run yours without batteries connected as you will fry the alternator.

Not sure why folks are hell bent on running the engines without power in the advent of engine batt catastrophic failure assuming they were already running of course.

You either have a x over parallel switch …..spring loaded so it can’t drain the whole system .This temporarily connects

Or a permanent switch to connect up everything. Which runs the risk of operator error leaving it or them permanently on and running down the engine starting and geny starting batts which is exactly what’s happened here .

With the parallel version and a modern EDC set up - you figure out , carry connects , leads so in an emergency you can link up the engine(s) to the domestic if the engine starters are goosed for what reason .

The ideology is a bit like carrying a liferaft and ERIB the same mentality….you don’t really want to use them but if the boat sinks - go figure . Your chances of survival vastly increase . I never used mine btw , nor had to phaff with leads in the ER connecting up batt banks either . But I knew I could call on them in n emergency.

I have used the X over s a few times …..to start up then replaced the engine batts bcz the very nature of reliance of the X over switch told me the engine batts were goosed not holding charge long enough @ anchor .
To be fair I could usually tell by the sound , the cranking time if the starter batts were on there way out . A fresh set fires up in an instant .

 

[MapisM]

I suspect if you ( don’t try this btw ) run your engines and turn off / disconnect the engine batts assuming they are separate to any other power source your engines will stop

No, they won't.
As in most 100% mechanical engines (including the OP's Cat 3208), the stop solenoid is energized to stop, not energized to run.
That's the reason why I said you can only kill those engines manually inside the e/r, in the event of a total electrical loss.

 

[MapisM]

Not sure why folks are hell bent on running the engines without power in the advent of engine batt catastrophic failure assuming they were already running of course.

I don't think anyone is hell bent about it - I for one am not, that's for sure.
Actually, most folks (OP included, I suspect) are even unaware of that, and wouldn't know what to push in order to stop the engines in such emergency.
Which BTW could be an even bigger problem for anyone whose mechanical engines are mated to electronic levers, so neither the engines could be stopped, nor the gear engaged/disengaged.

The only reason why I mentioned that is to reassure the OP that absolutely nothing in your post #71 (as well as the following ones so far) is relevant for him, that's all.

 

[Portofino]

No, they won't.
As in most 100% mechanical engines (including the OP's Cat 3208), the stop solenoid is energized to stop, not energized to run.
That's the reason why I said you can only kill those engines manually inside the e/r, in the event of a total electrical loss.

Those engines then fail to fall into the definition ( which I thought I exhausted ? ) the definition of “ Modern “
He will still fry his alternators running the engines with nothing connected batt wise .

Not sure what point you are making ?

 

[MapisM]

Not sure what point you are making ?

See post #77: essentially, my only point was that your comments are pointless.

 

[Portofino]

I don't think anyone is hell bent about it - I for one am not, that's for sure.
Actually, most folks (OP included, I suspect) are even unaware of that, and wouldn't know what to push in order to stop the engines in such emergency.
Which BTW could be an even bigger problem for anyone whose mechanical engines are mated to electronic levers, so neither the engines could be stopped, nor the gear engaged/disengaged.

The only reason why I mentioned that is to reassure the OP that absolutely nothing in your post #71 (as well as the following ones so far) is relevant for him, that's all.

Fitting X overs will prevent his predicament happening.
Also i was , quoting Paul R .
Pushing back on marine diesels running without being connected to batteries ( assuming you got them stated )
Modern ones can’t . Simply clarifying that .
You know things drift off on tangents and such . Helpful.