AWB's? Durable enough for liveaboards?

[asteven221]

Okay I really don't want to start any sort of AWB vs MAB debate as I know the prejudices that arise whenever this is brought up. I guess I am really looking for only AWB liveaboards to comment as they can answer with genuine experience. Apologies if this has come up before but I am new to the Liveaboard Link, but been around on the Yachting & Motorboat forums for years. Simply mentioning ben/bav/jen etc... causes many to become very vocal.

Let me first of all declare that both myself and my wife (wife in particular) much prefer new (ish) AWB's to older style (or just old) boats. We even prefer new (ish) AWB's over (for the same money) older so called premium brands like HR etc.... Yes I know some will say we are crazy thinking that way but we can't help it! Of course we might have to change our minds depending on the comments posted! LOL.

We are seriously considering the liveaboard cruising lifestyle in less than 3 years with the Med as our target. Having owned a Beneteau Oceanis 423, (which we really liked), I couldn't help but notice a couple of things (relatively minor I suppose to some) that made me wonder about longer term durability when living on it all the time. I am really not talking about engineering failures or dare I say it - keels falling off (oh no I shouldn't have mentioned that!). I suppose I am talking about a steady decline in the general condition of the boat and it's fittings when subject to daily life. I know that things break and need fixed which is fine. That's the same on any boat at any price, but doors falling off, drawers sticking, hinges breaking, light fittings falling out the ceiling etc... will I am sure start to become very annoying. Again I accept that to many these things are unimportant and even I admit myself that they are arguably of little importance - but maybe that's why we like new (ish) boats instead of old boats - if that makes sense.

Anyway, back to our old boat - our Benny 423. First of all we liked the nice high gloss interior, but geez it marked extremely easily. Even a bunch of keys would almost lift off the lacquer. What's it going to end up like in a few years? The hinges for the internal doors were to my mind very light and the screws were tiny. Indeed I had cause to take one off and the impression I got was that the small screws going into the soft wood would fall apart in the not too distant future. The screws were really tiny. There were other things, but I am sure you get my point.

So having said all that - can I ask AWB liveabord owners out there - please tell me, do they stand up well to daily life over a period of many years? Or do they slowly disintegrate and become the motoring equivelant of a Ford Mondeo taxi cab that's done 200,000 miles?

Thanks.

 

[Tranona]

You are right that some of the details may be less than good - but that is not exclusive to AWBs. Few boats are built for constant liveaboards and some of the well used equipment such as electrics, toilets and water systems are the same irrespective of the price of the boat.

A good guide is to look at the condition of boats after 5 or more years of chartering in the Med. The level of usage of the "living" systems is arguably even higher than a couple living full time, and users generally take less care. On the other hand many popular charter type boats are relatively simple recognising the need to be easy to maintain.

From my own experience, my 2001 Bavaria survived 7 years of intense chartering relatively unscathed. Leaving aside the couple of basic design problems, the things that suffered most were light fittings, electrics in general and toilet and water sytems, but none difficult to fix. The big question mark for me looking at newer boats is exactly the things you identify - lightly constructed furniture, non-durable finishes and inadequate hinges, locks etc. My boat does not suffer from them as it is the last of the range that retained the old "woody" style interior.

It really is quite difficult to get a compromise that has some of the "better" features of the more expensive boats with the lower costs associated with mass production - and there is a definite trend toward narrowing the gap with specs of mass produced boats getting more comprehensive and semi custom boats adopting production techniques from the mass producers - but not lowering prices to reflect it!

 

[silver-fox]

You are clearly able to distinguish between the quayside appeal which sells boats to the inexperienced and what will really matter to you as a liveaboard. I honestly think you have answered your own questions.

Its not necessarily about brand.

Whatever you choose you can see there are trade offs.

Whatever you choose you will be doing more maintenance than you thought possible.

If you are looking for rationale debate, you may well be disappointed as boat owners are a notoriously partisan about boat choice.

Good luck

 

[jonjo]

The high-gloss Benni finish is peculiar to that brand of a certain vintage and should not feature in a general AWB durability debate.

 

[jonic]

No right or wrong answer here.

It depends on the model, some will stand up well, some won't.

Generally speaking a high quality yacht is going to wear better compared to an AWB....................but not always.

 

[vyv_cox]

It is now the height of the summer liveaboard season. There are plenty of charterers also but the majority, until the start of July, are older, retired people.

Some, such as us, are in MABs, which have all sorts of custom biminis, passerelles, boarding platforms, etc. Some are beautifully made and no doubt cost a fortune, others are clearly DIY and often don't seem to work very well. Many of these boats don't reverse well, or at all, and are forced to berth bows-to, with its attendant problems. Many of northern European manufacture have inadequate ventilation, cumbersome cockpits and various features designed for colder climates.

Others are in AWBs that are designed for living aboard in the Med. They have off the shelf, big wide biminis, built in swimming platforms and ladders. With walk-through transoms and well designed drives they are ideal for stern-to berthing, as practised by the vast majority for its clear benefits. Many I have visited are spacious, for the same overall length as mine, they are often considerably cooler below and their cockpits are a delight to live in.

If I were starting again now, there is no doubt which I would buy.

 

[JamesFrance]

Just as an example, when we were real liveaboards and not part timers our toilets were Baby Blakes and not Jabscos. If you check out the current prices you will see why they are rarely fitted today.

If your quality boat has equipment of that sort it may need less replacements, but remember that a bareboat charterer will expose weaknesses long before a private owner would, especially with larger models hired to single sex groups.

I would expect any designs popular with hire fleets to need minimal maintenance and if bought new far less attention under warranty.

The interior of our Oceanis 311 still looks as new after 9 years of ownership.

 

[Carl Edwards]

Sorry for being silly chaps but what does AWB stand for ?

 

[vyv_cox]

Sorry for being silly chaps but what does AWB stand for ?

Average White Boat. Generic term for Bavarias, Beneteaux and Jeanneaux.

 

[paulingreece]

Sorry for being silly chaps but what does AWB stand for ?

Average White Boat.

Beaten to it again,

 

[Talulah]

All White Boat.

AWB: Another white boat

 

[paulingreece]

AWB: Another white boat

Or Average, or All White, there are lots of differant AWB's, some better than others, in the main though as already said, the Charter companys like easy to maintain boats, some of the older types fare better than the new ones, all down to personal choice.

 

[Talulah]

Or Average, or All White, there are lots of differant AWB's, some better than others, in the main though as already said, the Charter companys like easy to maintain boats, some of the older types fare better than the new ones, all down to personal choice.

I was merely adding to the list. Average and All White had already been mentioned.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Okay I really don't want to start any sort of AWB vs MAB debate as I know the prejudices that arise whenever this is brought up. I guess I am really looking for only AWB liveaboards to comment as they can answer with genuine experience. Apologies if this has come up before but I am new to the Liveaboard Link, but been around on the Yachting & Motorboat forums for years. Simply mentioning ben/bav/jen etc... causes many to become very vocal.

Let me first of all declare that both myself and my wife (wife in particular) much prefer new (ish) AWB's to older style (or just old) boats. We even prefer new (ish) AWB's over (for the same money) older so called premium brands like HR etc.... Yes I know some will say we are crazy thinking that way but we can't help it! Of course we might have to change our minds depending on the comments posted! LOL.

We are seriously considering the liveaboard cruising lifestyle in less than 3 years with the Med as our target. Having owned a Beneteau Oceanis 423, (which we really liked), I couldn't help but notice a couple of things (relatively minor I suppose to some) that made me wonder about longer term durability when living on it all the time. I am really not talking about engineering failures or dare I say it - keels falling off (oh no I shouldn't have mentioned that!). I suppose I am talking about a steady decline in the general condition of the boat and it's fittings when subject to daily life. I know that things break and need fixed which is fine. That's the same on any boat at any price, but doors falling off, drawers sticking, hinges breaking, light fittings falling out the ceiling etc... will I am sure start to become very annoying. Again I accept that to many these things are unimportant and even I admit myself that they are arguably of little importance - but maybe that's why we like new (ish) boats instead of old boats - if that makes sense.

Anyway, back to our old boat - our Benny 423. First of all we liked the nice high gloss interior, but geez it marked extremely easily. Even a bunch of keys would almost lift off the lacquer. What's it going to end up like in a few years? The hinges for the internal doors were to my mind very light and the screws were tiny. Indeed I had cause to take one off and the impression I got was that the small screws going into the soft wood would fall apart in the not too distant future. The screws were really tiny. There were other things, but I am sure you get my point.

So having said all that - can I ask AWB liveaboard owners out there - please tell me, do they stand up well to daily life over a period of many years? Or do they slowly disintegrate and become the motoring equivalent of a Ford Mondeo taxi cab that's done 200,000 miles?

Thanks.

Hi
I think it may be a question of the age of your AWB. Mine is a 1988 Jeanneau Sun Magic 44.
I have owned her since 1992. Its has a Yanmar 55 hp engine that uses no oil,the doors are wood as is the flooring,(need a re varnish),nothing has broken or fallen off in this time "Except the mast" that was due to Turkish stainless steel bolts.

The insurance company offered me a total constructive loss at 77,000euro I declined as it would not have been possible to replace, with a modern boat of the same quallity, even if I put another 30.000euro to the pot.

I have nothing at all against modern AWB, although I do not believe that the latest Ben`s Jen`s Bavaria are as well constructed. And I have been on a considerable amount, of what is known as quality Swedish thoroughbreds HR ect, over the years and cannot see the extra value placed in these marques, they have the same make of engine, mast and winches .
Mine, also, has a beauitiful teak deck!!!! and a Delta 26kg anchor "that should get em going"

Though, I could be persuaded into a Bavaria 55 cruiser to live a comfortable Marina based retirement with pleasant trips across the Aegean.

And if LUDD replies It would need a built in washing machine for Lynne

not for sale i will add

 

[asteven221]

Thanks everyone for your interesting comments. I am pleasently surprised by the positive and common sense comments as I had really half expected and AWB slagging match, even although that's the last thing I was after!

So in summary I am pleased to see that my own observations and thoughts are in line with most of you and that AWB's are fine for living on. It's a case of not lumping every AWB into the same pot and assuming they are all the same in regard to strenght and weaknesses. They are all different and have pros & cons. Much like everything else I suppose!

Maybe we should have a thread of actual models that people use and on a scale of 1 (fell to bits) to 10 (looks the same as it was when new) or something along those lines. For someone like me starting on the road to buying a liveaboard, it can be really difficult to sort out the misinformation which often due to prejudicies of some sort.

The upshot for most of us I suspect is that we want a safe sea boat, that's reliable and a nice floating home - for what we can afford or are prepared to pay. Sounds simple doesn't it. LOL.

Thanks.

 

[Talulah]

So what makes a new boat start to look tatty?
The following are some of the things I have come across and others can add to the list.

1. Chips to the worktops especially around the edges of the sink.
2. Door edging missing/pulled off.
(The chips and edging pulled off are as a result of edging protruding slightly above the flat surface. As bags are brushed past the door they catch the edging and pull it off.
3. Toilet head doors wicking water up from the base.
(Showers with head doors not sealed properly.)
4. Floors boards distorted/raised etc.
(Inadequate support of floors for thickness of ply.)
5. Multiple screw holes in panels.
(Caused by "nothing of substance" to screw into because the materials used are too light weight or screws were used where bolts should have been used. Numerous holes are where the owner is constantly repositioning.)
6. Worn Cushions
(Fabric is one area you can cut build costs.)
7. General chipping of surfaces, both vertical and horizantal.
8. Mirrors in heads where water is wicking between glass and silver backing sheet.
9. Floor in showers looking dirty despite being cleaned.
10. Base of cupboard door scorched above cooker.
(Once the kettle is on you open the door to get the coffee/tea out and the base of the door enters the flame.)

On a lot of new builds now you see stains on the side of the white hulls vertically below the cleats.
This is where the water drains off the deck.

 

[Tranona]

So what makes a new boat start to look tatty?
The following are some of the things I have come across and others can add to the list.

1. Chips to the worktops especially around the edges of the sink.
2. Door edging missing/pulled off.
(The chips and edging pulled off are as a result of edging protruding slightly above the flat surface. As bags are brushed past the door they catch the edging and pull it off.
3. Toilet head doors wicking water up from the base.
(Showers with head doors not sealed properly.)
4. Floors boards distorted/raised etc.
(Inadequate support of floors for thickness of ply.)
5. Multiple screw holes in panels.
(Caused by "nothing of substance" to screw into because the materials used are too light weight or screws were used where bolts should have been used. Numerous holes are where the owner is constantly repositioning.)
6. Worn Cushions
(Fabric is one area you can cut build costs.)
7. General chipping of surfaces, both vertical and horizantal.
8. Mirrors in heads where water is wicking between glass and silver backing sheet.
9. Floor in showers looking dirty despite being cleaned.
10. Base of cupboard door scorched above cooker.
(Once the kettle is on you open the door to get the coffee/tea out and the base of the door enters the flame.)

On a lot of new builds now you see stains on the side of the white hulls vertically below the cleats.
This is where the water drains off the deck.

I think a lot depends on where the boat is used, particularly if chartered. I compared charter/sailing school boats in the UK and mine in the Med. The differences arise from the environment and the way the boat is used. In the med, most of the living is "outside" and you don't get crew going down below with wet weather gear, harnesses boots etc on. Less of a problem with condensation, particularly as few do any cooking on board. Lots of wear on saloon upholstery, but little on sleeping cabins. High usage of water, showers, loos, saloon tables, fridges and main saloon lighting. Externally very little wear and tear on deck hardware as little heavy weather sailing, but high usage of windlass and wear or damage to stanchions and toerails from regular docking in congested harbours.

More recent AWBs (and some of the more expensive brands) do seem to have less robust furniture and fittings. Lots of straight edges and lightweight fittings that can fail but more importantly not easy to repair well.

Having said all that a private owner is more likely to be aware of the limitations and take more care about how things are used. As Vyv said above, the functional advantages of many AWBs for Med living are clear. On balance there is no reason why they should not prove satisfactory, just as an older more northern orientated boat can also prove satisfactory - but in a different way.

 

[Carl Edwards]

Now we're talking

Thanks everyone for your interesting comments. I am pleasently surprised by the positive and common sense comments as I had really half expected and AWB slagging match, even although that's the last thing I was after!

So in summary I am pleased to see that my own observations and thoughts are in line with most of you and that AWB's are fine for living on. It's a case of not lumping every AWB into the same pot and assuming they are all the same in regard to strenght and weaknesses. They are all different and have pros & cons. Much like everything else I suppose!

Maybe we should have a thread of actual models that people use and on a scale of 1 (fell to bits) to 10 (looks the same as it was when new) or something along those lines. For someone like me starting on the road to buying a liveaboard, it can be really difficult to sort out the misinformation which often due to prejudicies of some sort.

The upshot for most of us I suspect is that we want a safe sea boat, that's reliable and a nice floating home - for what we can afford or are prepared to pay. Sounds simple doesn't it. LOL.

Thanks.

I like this idea.
I am in the same boat myself ( well not literally yet ).

I assume that most Med live aboards are in these types of yachts.
It would be very interesting to see what they think of their floating homes and what they think they could be missing from the Swedish built vessels.

I would think that most of us
A. Can't afford a newish HR etc or
B. Don't have the knowledge to re-fit an old one.

One question I would like to throw into the hat .

Do the HR's etc have a more sea kindly motion than the newer AWB's ?
Forget long keels, we all know about them. I'm talking about the regular deep or shallow fin hulls.

Sorry to chuck that in !

 

[KellysEye]

From what I've seen the great majority of liveaboard yachts in the Med are AWB's. Go ocean sailng though and that's not the case, most boats are heavily built an example of a GRP one is a Bowman.

 

[Tranona]

I like this idea.
I am in the same boat myself ( well not literally yet ).

I assume that most Med live aboards are in these types of yachts.
It would be very interesting to see what they think of their floating homes and what they think they could be missing from the Swedish built vessels.

I would think that most of us
A. Can't afford a newish HR etc or
B. Don't have the knowledge to re-fit an old one.

One question I would like to throw into the hat .

Do the HR's etc have a more sea kindly motion than the newer AWB's ?
Forget long keels, we all know about them. I'm talking about the regular deep or shallow fin hulls.

Sorry to chuck that in !

AWBs are generally "livelier" than heavier older designs. However, you perhaps need to consider the primary purpose of a Med liveaboard, making the distinction in the same way as Kellyseye suggests. In reality liveboard involves relatively little sailing, and then only a tiny proportion (if any) in heavy conditions. Does not mean conditions are always perfect, just that in most cases you can avoid heavy weather. After all living aboard does not need to be challenging the elements. The majority of the time is spent at anchor or in harbour, and even when on the move you motor more than actively sail.

Therefore there are different priorities in the boat than say coastal cruising in northern climes. Simplicity, space, easy maneouverability in light airs and under motor become more important. Large open cockpits with easy access to the water become attractive. Size is less of a problem and with the trend toward short ended boats you can get maximum living space for any given size of boat. Easy to see why Ben/Bav/Jen are so popular, particularly when you can buy them for typically 40% less than something like an HR. Of course for some people owning an HR or similar expensive boat is a statement of achievement and no doubt gives great satisfaction. However, much of the important kit (engines, systems, deck gear etc) is the same on both types of boat and the premium for the extra gloss and care that is required for the upmarket boat makes a big dent in the budget.

The alternative of buying an older style more upmarket boat is perhaps not as attractive as it seems. Having been through that decision process myself, I came to the conclusion that a newer mass produced boat is far better value at a given price point than an older boat for two reasons. Firstly when you dig deeper you often find they are nowhere near as well made as they appear (even if upmarket for their day) and invariably need lots of money and work to bring up to the same standard. Plus, of course, most are not designed for Med living.

If you see your boat as just a platform for relaxed living on the water with the ability to change your environment from time to time, then an AWB has it all. If you see boat ownership as something more complex, and particularly if you feel "voyaging" in a wider sense as your objective then consider investing more of your wealth in a different kind of boat.