Auction of promise

[jimi]

Eldest daughter's school is trying to fund some sort of jolly and are having an auction of promises. She's thought it a pretty whizzee idea to auction a day's sailing .. what's the legal situation if there is an accident, should I get the successful bidders to sign some sort of dislaimer?

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[alex_rogers]

I don't know about the legal position as to whether or not you are then effectively operating as a charter but signing a disclaimer makes no difference. You can not ask someone to sign away their rights - they have the same legal rights to pursue a claim against you, whether or not they've signed any disclaimer. (Under English law, might be different is Scotland!)

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by alex_rogers on 12/07/2004 10:55 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Talbot]

talk to your insurance company and get there agreement in writing (may cost a bit of money) and please tell us their response. Often thought of doing this for children in need etc.

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[Neraida]

I've just had a quick scan through my policy, and find that I am covered for upto 5 persons on board provided that it is not for "hire or reward" kinda thing. What it doesn't tell me is whether this kind of charity thingy is actually a reward?? I would have a quick word with your insurance company if I were you, better be safe than sorry.

Any disclamer is going to be totally elephant in front if a decent lawyer..

PS Don't wear "that" hat, you'll scare the kiddies!

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[AndrewB]

Definitely follow Talbot's advice and contact your insurers. This would not count as a charter, but the duty of care you would have towards a strange child is severe and cannot possibly be removed by any form of disclaimer.

I used to take out children from local schools, also mentally ill younger adults, but as a result of recent legal rulings have decided the risk is too high. You will find yourself very difficultly placed if the least thing goes wrong, even if, for example, the child disobeys simple instructions.

Unless you are a qualified instructor with indemnity, it is quite possible the school will also advise against this.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

Good point, although Jimi is not going to receive any reward. ie he is doing it for free (presumably!!) and it is the school who would benefit.

So its just the same as taking any other friends or strangers on the boat - I always tell guests in a lighthearted way that they are not insured, however well I know them.

I look forward to the official answers too although they can often stop people doing something which is perfectly reasonable and sensibile in the real world.

<hr width=100% size=1>It's frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

Taking school children sailing is a different scenario - I fully agree with your advice on that one.

At an auction of promises, it would be adults bidding for the privelege and one would assume that they will be the ones going sailing. If they choose to bring their kids, with the skippers agreement, thats up to them. Its down to any skipper to agree or refuse who he takes on his boat at anytime, whether they are guests, made a donation to the local school, or strangers off the street.

All in my IMHO of course, I am no lawyer.

<hr width=100% size=1>It's frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.

 

[iangrant]

Jim

The yachting Rotarians arrange a "Kids Out" day once a year - we take disabled kids out for the day - anchor off - lunch and back safe,
I spoke to my insurer (broker) who said it made no difference who I took out..

I would just go ahead and do it.. lets face it we all have a duty of care and I'm sure if anything happened you would be able to demostrate a responsible attitide to evaluation the risks. Main thing would be life jackets at all times I guess..

Too many people are becoming scared of their own shadows to do anything these days..

Good luck -

Ian



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[StugeronSteve]

Went through exactly the same dilemma a few years ago. In the end we decided to take a group out that coincidently made a very generous donation direct to the cause concerned.

I should be really interested to hear the official opinion of an insurance company. I've got a funny feeling that they might refuse unless the vessel is coded and the skipper is in possession of a YM with commercial endorsement.

But then again, who knows?

<hr width=100% size=1>Semper Bufo

 

[Peppermint]

Re:Just check with your insurers

Your a YM and your boats in good nick some of the time. Ring me before you sail and I'll check the weather for you. You know what it's does when you check it. Your unlikely to drown them if you just pop to Cowes and back.

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[AlexL]

You are correct you cannot sign away your rights, however in order to be sued people MUST prove that you failed in your duty of care - which is likely to be less than a sailing school who would be expected to have a much higher duty of care.
In scuba diving we get people to sign something called an "assumption of risk" - which is not the same as a disclaimer - it basically says that the participant realises that there is some inherent risk in what they are about to do and cannot hold you responsible for reasonable risks.
In scuba diving we have had the HSE on our case for a few years now and basically if you have a plan to mitigate against all reasonable and forseeable risks you should be OK.
You could also make sure one of the teachers acompanies the trip and then they would probably carry the responsability! (a bit cheeky I know, but it is part of their job)

Finally I'm sure it must be OK as I've seen Try Scuba diving and Light aircraft flights been done in these auctions at schools.

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