[70521]
Well-Known Member
I like the "raw information", but the day job has always been about processing raw information and working out solutions.
Attainable Adventure Cruising website...anyone use it?
- Thread starter Tim O
- Start date
Neeves
Well-Known Member
The other resource to look at is Practical Sailor, for full access you do need to subscribe but much of the information is freely available.
Thinwater and I both contribute - so I am slightly biased. The expose on tether hooks, for example, after the loss from a Clipper vessel was an investigation by Thinwater. Others may have commented based on his work - but he conducted the base evaluation. It did tend to be Amerocentric but we have both tried to extend coverage to product outside America (and we both contribute here). PS does support testing and looking at a cross section of samples - unlike other reviews which may only be of single products.
Jonathan
Thinwater and I both contribute - so I am slightly biased. The expose on tether hooks, for example, after the loss from a Clipper vessel was an investigation by Thinwater. Others may have commented based on his work - but he conducted the base evaluation. It did tend to be Amerocentric but we have both tried to extend coverage to product outside America (and we both contribute here). PS does support testing and looking at a cross section of samples - unlike other reviews which may only be of single products.
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Coincidentally this popped up on my screen this morning, check the link - now in red
A Dangerous Way to Learn - Practical Sailor Print Edition Article
You can sign on to Waypoints free - it may encourage you to subscribe.
This is an ad free publication the cost to produce the mag including the costs incurred during testing are paid by the subscribers - if there are not enough subscribers the payment for testing will not cover the overhead - and there will be no rigorous and independent testing.
The choice is ours.
Rely on the few independent sources left, AAC, PS and to a lessor extent PBO (which takes the other route and relies, successfully, on advertising or rely on the internet and forum (which of course is totally accurate and free of bias).
Jonathan
A Dangerous Way to Learn - Practical Sailor Print Edition Article
You can sign on to Waypoints free - it may encourage you to subscribe.
This is an ad free publication the cost to produce the mag including the costs incurred during testing are paid by the subscribers - if there are not enough subscribers the payment for testing will not cover the overhead - and there will be no rigorous and independent testing.
The choice is ours.
Rely on the few independent sources left, AAC, PS and to a lessor extent PBO (which takes the other route and relies, successfully, on advertising or rely on the internet and forum (which of course is totally accurate and free of bias).
Jonathan
Walther
Well-Known Member
BlowingOldBoots’ summary is accurate.
The proprietor/principal author has a dogmatic, brusque style. When commentators disagree he always insists on having the last word, usually along the lines of ‘you may think that, but you’re wrong’. This is tiresome, and eventually I decided to let my subscription lapse.
His argumentation can largely be avoided by sticking to the articles and eschewing the comments. But that would be a pity, because the comments are often at least as valuable as the articles.
It’s also noteworthy that it has been some years since Harries did much real voyaging, and indeed last year he listed his boat for sale. That doesn’t mean that all of his past experience is somehow no longer valid, but it may suggest that his perspective is gradually becoming somewhat dated.
Still, there is some valuable information on the website, and the subscription is modest. So try it, perhaps you’ll like it.
The proprietor/principal author has a dogmatic, brusque style. When commentators disagree he always insists on having the last word, usually along the lines of ‘you may think that, but you’re wrong’. This is tiresome, and eventually I decided to let my subscription lapse.
His argumentation can largely be avoided by sticking to the articles and eschewing the comments. But that would be a pity, because the comments are often at least as valuable as the articles.
It’s also noteworthy that it has been some years since Harries did much real voyaging, and indeed last year he listed his boat for sale. That doesn’t mean that all of his past experience is somehow no longer valid, but it may suggest that his perspective is gradually becoming somewhat dated.
Still, there is some valuable information on the website, and the subscription is modest. So try it, perhaps you’ll like it.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
The complaint is often made of magazines that it appears as if there is a schedule and articles are repeated on a 2 year cycle, antifouling, anchoring, engine servicing etc. It is a real problem for the media - how to offer a fresh issue when at the end of the day the science of anchoring (is not known ) but what is known has changed little for decades.
AAC and any other subscription service (I'm thinking also of Panope and his videos) has the self same problem. In order to provide a return to those who pay a subscription you really need to offer something new, like a Northhill anchor (one that is no longer made in its original form and that few actually use). We end up with one gem of a 'publication' filled out with some contrived 'knowledge'. Sadly you could sign up - download all the historic data - cancel the subscription sure in the knowledge not much new is likely to appear uniquely in the next 2 years - without it appearing somewhere else (where you might pick it up for free)..
Its a real problem - I'm not going to do the work unless I can publish and make a nominal return and if no-one subscribes I'm not going to receive a return at all.
Jonathan
AAC and any other subscription service (I'm thinking also of Panope and his videos) has the self same problem. In order to provide a return to those who pay a subscription you really need to offer something new, like a Northhill anchor (one that is no longer made in its original form and that few actually use). We end up with one gem of a 'publication' filled out with some contrived 'knowledge'. Sadly you could sign up - download all the historic data - cancel the subscription sure in the knowledge not much new is likely to appear uniquely in the next 2 years - without it appearing somewhere else (where you might pick it up for free)..
Its a real problem - I'm not going to do the work unless I can publish and make a nominal return and if no-one subscribes I'm not going to receive a return at all.
Jonathan
Ric
Well-Known Member
Yes I subscribe - loads of really good info on the site.
I joined primarily to read the Boreal v Garcia Aventura series - which was well worth the review.
But since then I have found many interesting and thought provoking articles, The author is not only a very experienced sailor but also writes very well.
I joined primarily to read the Boreal v Garcia Aventura series - which was well worth the review.
But since then I have found many interesting and thought provoking articles, The author is not only a very experienced sailor but also writes very well.
Walther
Well-Known Member
Indeed, his writing style is something one either loves or hates. Personally I find it sanctimonious and entirely humourless; clearly you (and many others) disagree.
I would encourage people to pay for a trial subscription and form their own judgments.
I’ve broken bread with Harries a couple of times, and although he took himself very seriously he was not the prig that (IMO) his website suggests.
I would encourage people to pay for a trial subscription and form their own judgments.
I’ve broken bread with Harries a couple of times, and although he took himself very seriously he was not the prig that (IMO) his website suggests.
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Tintin
Well-Known Member
I subscribe to AAC and Practical Sailor - both worth the money IMHO.
pmnfernando
Active Member
i just got banned from that website for disagreeing with the boss.
its as all about the A40 boat, and saying that he, Jonh Harries, would have a hard time convincing me he wouldnt have a commercial interest on the boat being produced and sold. Off course anyone involved to that degree would want a financial return!!
The result: seems the chap got offended and banned me.
all because i was trying to make a point about making it available in a kit form.
People that cant withstand a critique, different views and on top ban paying members, really should think twice as it only deepens eventual suspicions.
73 laps around the Sun and has this thin skin, for god sake........
its as all about the A40 boat, and saying that he, Jonh Harries, would have a hard time convincing me he wouldnt have a commercial interest on the boat being produced and sold. Off course anyone involved to that degree would want a financial return!!
The result: seems the chap got offended and banned me.
all because i was trying to make a point about making it available in a kit form.
People that cant withstand a critique, different views and on top ban paying members, really should think twice as it only deepens eventual suspicions.
73 laps around the Sun and has this thin skin, for god sake........
RunAgroundHard
Well-Known Member
Sour grapes.
It is not all about the A40.
There are around 26 chapters and 56 sub chapters, with 12 online books curating articles on various subjects. There is only one A40 chapter.
Also, he is quite clear about what he is providing, information based on his experience and research that he believes is reliable. He is not operating a forum for opinions.
I am a subscriber, and have found information on various subjects useful to what I wanted to achieve. I can look for the same information on here and get many conflicting answers. If his model was shit, people would not subscribe.
pmnfernando
Active Member
my main interest was the boat project
never said the rest was shit content.
One can always find the same content all over the internet, sure one has to spend time looking around and that comes with its caveats. but along that journey one will also encounter other stuff you wouldnt even be looking for.
is it convinient to have a more consolidated place? for sure.
following your logic i could conclude justin bieber or any other popular noise maker is of worth, based on his albums sales.
Like i said to him, ban me if you want, its your party. Its just a paid eco chamber. To each its own.
If he doesnt want opinions, then delete the comment box, for that is what you will have, good or bad, worthy or not.
Cancelling people is...a weak approach.
Not my first time, in another place i was cancelled professionally by saying that men shouldnt be competing against women.
Its all good, we are all dead aniway, all we have in between is time. hahahahaha
thinwater
Well-Known Member
An experienced, no-nonsense guy with well thought out content. You can ask questions and get smart answers. And, of course, it is searchable.
KompetentKrew
Well-Known Member
So you called him a liar?
pmnfernando
Active Member
no
i said it would be difficult to sell me the idea that he goes for all this effort to not gey any sort of financial compensation.howver big or small.
being hard to convince isnt calling anyone a liar, not does it make me right also.
unless he enjoys and is able to work for free, and if thats the case why charge for the website?
bottom line is, the man is asking money for his work in consolidating information and his opinions. he is also charging.money so ppl access the full content whilst being able to voice their opinion/comments.
i havent the smallest problem with that, otherwise i wouldnd ve been a paying member since 2019.
Its capitalism and it works
But spending 12 years on a project, yet to take off, advertising the need for a 1 million dollars to advance the project, since his main sponsor unfortunately died, calling what will be a 350/400k + boat " affordable" and expect me to believe that he has no financial interest, to me, is a bit too much
i think its a reasonable doubt.
and i stress again, i see no problem whatsoever in him turning a profit for himself, i said it: who works 12 years on a project and doesnt get anything back?!
i know one person that would be paid for that: myself.
but deleting.comments under the banner of "comments guidelines" and banning me, even if briefly, speak louder than words.
should i be so quick and conclude : i must have hit a nerve?!
and in the end i was pushing for a solution, that is not perfect, but its still a way of moving forward, producing the boats and have it on the water.
ive cancelled myembership and asked him to block me,
ive no interest in being in places that find problems to solutions being proposed.
i can always comeback in 10 years and to check the progress on a 650k affordable boat
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Neeves
Well-Known Member
On the previous post - I have only read one side of the 'altercation'
But burning books and banning contributors - for their technical content or commercial .... ideas, questions or conclusions - seldom works. Banning is commonly counter productive as it removes counter arguments and data - that may need to be discussed.
On AAC - I'm uncomfortable with serious safety conclusions only being available to a contributor. There is surely a way the safety issues are provided free - and underpin the marketing of the value of the resource.
Jonathan
But burning books and banning contributors - for their technical content or commercial .... ideas, questions or conclusions - seldom works. Banning is commonly counter productive as it removes counter arguments and data - that may need to be discussed.
On AAC - I'm uncomfortable with serious safety conclusions only being available to a contributor. There is surely a way the safety issues are provided free - and underpin the marketing of the value of the resource.
Jonathan
RunAgroundHard
Well-Known Member
“Serious safety issues” and solutions are frequently charged for and is a normal model e.g. ISO standards, BS standards, IET wiring standards, Certifying Authority Rules, ABYC, Practical Sailor, Yachting magazine anchoring articles and comparisons.
There are lots of places where open comment on “serious safety issues” is available for free, which you regularly contribute to. AAC is just a single commercial source of information. I think your discomfort is misplaced.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
pmnfernando
Active Member
Thats the key point, but they will turn to the "tone" and "comment guidelines" to justify what they deem is right/wrong.But we can disagree without one or both of use being banned
I hope
Jonathan
If i say someone is stupid im the bad guy, even if said person has shown, time and time again, he is stupid.
if i say "you could be smarter", maybe i will still get flak over it.
If i get onboard with someone patronizing me by saying "maybe if you stated it like this or that" i will get a pass.
or definite pass: you poor thing, dont worry, i´ll get a quota program that you can enroll into so you can do stuff you havent achieved the standards to do, but this way everyone is happy, its rainbows and unicorns!
This is the state of the world nowadays and then the same ppl that enforce these views are the ones who want Change, but dislike Changing like the devil himself.
So, like in Law, its never about Truth, its about production of evidence, moreover HOW that evidence is provided.
ylop
Well-Known Member
pmnfernando - you should probably look up the Streisand effect, whilst not exactly analogous your post here probably does more good than harm to your nemesis - because it’s raised the profile of his site with more free advertising, improves SEO and tells those who like curated content that whilst their is a comments section it’s moderated better than the bottom half of the internet usually is!
pmnfernando
Active Member
i just had a look on that~~pretty interesting
wasnt aware that it had a name, though i kinda knew about it by a different route: like when you pay a few dollars for ppl to stand in front of your shop so then a larger crowd amasses there, creating the oppurtunity for bigger sales. this crowd would never flock there if it wasnt for the smaller group of "seemingly interested" people looking up the window.
I wouldnt be surprised,
i got to hand it to him, he is a excellent seller, ive seen that over the years, the way he is able to convey info to, literally, sell the product/idea, has been amazing.
820 people apparently bought into the idea of a boat that has been 12 years in the making.
i told him:
i dont believe 820 ppl will buy this boat.
if you get HALF of this ppl to buy this boat it would be one for the books.
when it started 12 years ago, you had a 50 yo wanting to "cruise the world" on your boat. he is now 62, do you think he still has the same energy? no he hasnt
i said scrap the word affordable: the boat was estimated to cost 250k 12 years ago
i also said: i dont see the incentive for any prospective builder, there is not enough money in this.
Now, i never built a boat from scratch, (although i am refitting one and anyone interested look up the thread about Pioneer 9 in this forum) but ive been self studying wood epoxy boatbuilding since im 27, i am 43 currently, read lots of books and spent 1000's of hours online researching:
building a boat its the cheap bit, kitting it up is the expensive bit.
its not like im not aware of how much it costs, ballpark wise, to have a complete product. AND a manufacturer will not deliver a hull, it will deliver the full completed boat.
even 12 years ago stating that, anything: 250k, is affordable, only makes sense to ppl who have a million and more in the bank, and if thats the case why would those ppl go for this particular boat, when then can afford better ones?
Im not saying the A40 is shit, i actually think its a solid design, but its an unknown, has no track record. only a researched buyer would go for a boat like that.
Am i really seeing millionaires who sole purpose, lets be honest here, is to show off their toys, being really interest in sailing?!
Someone needs a wake up call and it isnt me or the boss of AAC, its the ppl who have been listening.
Lastly, the point of the boat was to have a key boat, ready for cruising, without refits and their horrible budgets disasters.......says the fella who failed to provide a boat for 12 years.
Dont buy a wreck, buy a nice project, spend 4 years refitting, then go.
buy the smallest you can fit into not the biggest you can afford
A boat is a liability not an asset, its like a car, only worse.
Buying new is the dumbest thing one could do, but if you like new things ,thats doesnt make you wrong, only dumb, and if it works for you, great!
.
My 29 ft Van de stadt Pioneer 9 sail suite (main, jib) costs less than the mainsail of a 40 footer for instance, the windlass costs 3x less, i could go on and on about this. but i dont want to bore ppl hahahaha