Atalanta of Chester/Hanne Knutsen trial

[DJE]

Anyone provide a linky to the legal consequences of entering the exclusion zone?

Byelaws here:-

http://www.southamptonvts.co.uk/admin/content/files/PDF_Downloads/Soton Byelaws.pdf

Penalties on page 18:

fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale

Which seems to be £1,000 here:-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1982/48/part/III/crossheading/introduction-of-standard-scale-of-fines

Fairly light penalties might explain why these charges were not brought?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Byelaws here:-

http://www.southamptonvts.co.uk/admin/content/files/PDF_Downloads/Soton Byelaws.pdf

Penalties on page 18:

fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale

Which seems to be £1,000 here:-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1982/48/part/III/crossheading/introduction-of-standard-scale-of-fines

Many thanks. Looks (to me) like they're not using the MPZ legislation. "Impede" implies rule 9 to me.

 

[bozlite]

Strict Liability Contempt under the Contempt of Court Act 1981
The strict liability rule may render the publication a contempt regardless of any intent to interfere with the course of justice in the proceedings. Refer to The Law, earlier in this guidance, applies:

to publications (including broadcasts , websites and other online or text-based communication) addressed to the public at large or any section of the public;

(From the CPS website)

And the next paragraph begins:

"which create a serious risk that the course of public justice will be seriously impeded or prejudiced"

It's very unlikely to apply when a case is being heard by a judge (without a jury) because the assumption is that judges are perfectly capable of not being swayed by anything that is not presented as evidence to them in the court.

 

[l'escargot]

I thought that entering the exclusion zone was an offence in itself. If so I don't see why they didn't charge him with that? Or is 'impeding' what you do if you enter the exclusion zone? [1] If so is the ship required to hold a steady speed and course as required by Rule 17? Or is there some doubt if the exclusion zone applied or not?

Anyone provide a linky to the legal consequences of entering the exclusion zone?

[1] Impede sounds a bit IRPCS to me, rather than local by laws.

Or perhaps he didn't enter the exclusion zone by his action or inaction, the ship turning back placed him in the exclusion zone?

 

[Vara]

Strict Liability Contempt under the Contempt of Court Act 1981
The strict liability rule may render the publication a contempt regardless of any intent to interfere with the course of justice in the proceedings. Refer to The Law, earlier in this guidance, applies:

to publications (including broadcasts , websites and other online or text-based communication) addressed to the public at large or any section of the public;

(From the CPS website)

Wise words but apparently wasted.

Discussing an ongoing trial on a forum is the height of folly.

 

[l'escargot]

Wise words but apparently wasted.

Discussing an ongoing trial on a forum is the height of folly.

Nonsense. Anyone not involved in the trial is free to talk about it as much as they want.

 

[bozlite]

Wise words but apparently wasted.

Discussing an ongoing trial on a forum is the height of folly.

Not wasted on me - see my post three above yours. I don't agree, though, that any discussion here could amount to contempt.

 

[DJE]

Wise words but apparently wasted.

Discussing an ongoing trial on a forum is the height of folly.

http://www.yourrights.org.uk/yourrights/right-of-free-expression/contempt-of-court/about-contempt-of-court.html

Two important limitations on the impact of the strict liability rule are:

It applies only to a publication which creates a substantial risk that the course of justice in the proceedings will be seriously impeded or prejudiced.
It applies to a publication only if the proceedings are active.

So you think that there is a substantial risk that a judge will be seriously prejudiced by this forum. I can't really see how.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Or perhaps he didn't enter the exclusion zone by his action or inaction, the ship turning back placed him in the exclusion zone?

My faith in British Justice is (just about) strong enough to discount the possibility that the MCA would decline to prosecute for the exclusion offence because the ship was behaving unpredictable and shifting the zone, but then prosecute for impeding this weaving ship.

Nonsense. Anyone not involved in the trial is free to talk about it as much as they want.

+1

 

[Vara]

Nonsense. Anyone not involved in the trial is free to talk about it as much as they want.

Talking about and publishing matter of fact or opinion are entirely different, it's why reporters only quote verbatim from court proceedings and why the media don't comment on cases until the verdict is in.

On twitter when ever there is a high profile case often the legal eagles will caution people to be aware of contempt of court.

 

[[70521]]

Dissapointing to see no reports on that page today.

 

[l'escargot]

Talking about and publishing matter of fact or opinion are entirely different, it's why reporters only quote verbatim from court proceedings and why the media don't comment on cases until the verdict is in.

On twitter when ever there is a high profile case often the legal eagles will caution people to be aware of contempt of court.

It can only be contempt of court if an order has been issued banning reporting and that order is ignored. The presumption must be that orders cannot be issued routinely as it counters freedom of speech and orders are only issued in very specific circumstances. No order restricting reporting has been issued in this case unless you know otherwise?

 

[rotrax]

I have given my view before about Yacht Clubs putting racing courses across heavily used navigation channels. Chichester springs to mind.
Coming, as I do from a heavily regulated-and quite right too-Motor Sport background it is akin to me putting a rally stage or a sprint course on a public road.
It is not too difficult to find out what shipping movements will happen in the Solent.
This is a potential cause for fresh legislation surely.

 

[bozlite]

Talking about and publishing matter of fact or opinion are entirely different, it's why reporters only quote verbatim from court proceedings and why the media don't comment on cases until the verdict is in.

On twitter when ever there is a high profile case often the legal eagles will caution people to be aware of contempt of court.

My understanding is that the case is being held in front of a district judge without a jury. The chances of judge being influenced by the views expressed on a discussion forum are considered to be non-existent. It is unthinkable that any discussion here could be seen as contempt.

 

[flaming]

I have given my view before about Yacht Clubs putting racing courses across heavily used navigation channels. Chichester springs to mind.
Coming, as I do from a heavily regulated-and quite right too-Motor Sport background it is akin to me putting a rally stage or a sprint course on a public road.
It is not too difficult to find out what shipping movements will happen in the Solent.
This is a potential cause for fresh legislation surely.

Cowes week racing from the squadron line dates back to the 1800s. Tanker traffic into and out of Fawley doesn't.

If there's a problem with the two meeting why should it be the tankers that have priority? After all Cowes week racing is planned years in advance and only lasts from circa 1000 until circa 1600. Even during Cowes week there are 18 other hours of the day when there is no racing.

 

[A1Sailor]

It can only be contempt of court if an order has been issued banning reporting and that order is ignored. The presumption must be that orders cannot be issued routinely as it counters freedom of speech and orders are only issued in very specific circumstances. No order restricting reporting has been issued in this case unless you know otherwise?

The only thing known is that yesterday the Daily Echo was reporting proceedings, court was due to sit at 10am today and no proceedings have been reported today.
Maybe the reporter has a broken finger. Maybe the court has restricted reporting. Which seems more likely?

 

[fireball]

I have given my view before about Yacht Clubs putting racing courses across heavily used navigation channels. Chichester springs to mind.
Coming, as I do from a heavily regulated-and quite right too-Motor Sport background it is akin to me putting a rally stage or a sprint course on a public road.
It is not too difficult to find out what shipping movements will happen in the Solent.
This is a potential cause for fresh legislation surely.

Not a significant amount of commercial traffic in Chichester ... and all traffic - racing or not - should abide by colregs & bylaws ... racing rules only apply between racing vessels.

 

[DJE]

Cowes week racing from the squadron line dates back to the 1800s. Tanker traffic into and out of Fawley doesn't.

If there's a problem with the two meeting why should it be the tankers that have priority? After all Cowes week racing is planned years in advance and only lasts from circa 1000 until circa 1600. Even during Cowes week there are 18 other hours of the day when there is no racing.

Since that incident ABP have a pilot working with the race committee at the Squadron during Cowes week and he is in contact with the pilots on the ships.

 

[DAKA]

Cowes week racing from the squadron line dates back to the 1800s. Tanker traffic into and out of Fawley doesn't.

If there's a problem with the two meeting why should it be the tankers that have priority? .

IRPCS ?

I suspect Atalanta shares your view that sail still has sole right of use of the solent .

 

[flaming]

IRPCS ?

I suspect Atalanta shares your view that sail still has sole right of use of the solent .

You misunderstand - not priority under COLREGS - obviously they have that inside the Solent. But if it's deemed too unsafe for tankers to enter and exit the Solent whilst racing is taking place (I don't think it is btw), or conversely too unsafe for racing to take place from the squadron line whilst tankers are entering and exiting then why is it assumed that this should mean racing would stop?