At what distance...

[AndrewB]

Re: No, not necessarily.

>>A side issue is which way to turn ... if you are stand on vessel and altering course because the give way vessel has not given way<<

Rule 17c: A power-driven vessel which takes action in a crossing situation in accordance with subparagraph (a)(ii) of this Rule to avoid collision with another power-driven vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, not alter course to port for a vessel on her own port side.

In other words, best is to turn to starboard. I do a 90 degree turn, using power if necessary. This means I am now travelling in the direction of the TSS, parallel with the ship, and continue with this until the ship is past. As you say, turning to go behind, which implies a turn to port, is not recommended. I do not like a 180 turn not only because I'm then going the wrong way, but if the ship should, very late, decide to give way, or even the ship behind it is giving way, then I'm caught heading for another collision and in a serious case of the dithers.

I appreciate rule 17c strictly doesn't apply to a sailing vessels but it is safest to follow it. Ships generally appear to assume that you are using auxilliary power in a TSS, and so I've always recommended interpreting the rules thus. I know you racing types take a different view!

 

[dralex]

Re: No, not necessarily.

I may have understood this wrong, but a turn to starboard will only put you travelling in the direction of the TSS in one of the lanes. If the shipping is coming from your starboard side, you would have to turn to port to run parallel until overtaken.

Sorry- didn't read your second paragraph properly. Best turn though is not always to Stbd.
<hr width=100% size=1>Life's too short- do it now./forums/images/icons/wink.gif<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by dralex on 10/08/2004 16:51 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[bedouin]

Re: No, not necessarily.

The assumption of that rule is that the give way vessel is to port of the stand on vessel - so turning to starboard is equivalent to what I recommend i.e. turning parallel to the give way vessel.

However when under sail and crossing the other way, surely the analogous action is to turn to Port

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[jimi]

Re: No, not necessarily.

Think if you're altering to port you've got to do it in plenty of time like 5+ miles away and certainly not at close quarters ... nearly got caught by that a few years ago when under sail we stood on and the ship on our portside also stood on. At less than half a mile we started to alter to port to go behind and just at that his aspect changed as he altered to go behind us. We quickly resumed our original course. Learnt a couple of lessons there.

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[AndrewB]

Re: No, not necessarily.

You are quite correct, the situation is different in the two lanes. It is in the first lane you reach that you are the stand-on vessel, and face the dilemmas above.

In the other, 'far' lane, it is simpler. You are the give-way vessel (at least under the rules for a power vessel, which is how ships will generally regard you). Ships will stand-on and leave the avoiding action to you. Then you can give way by steering behind them - its true this means turning to starboard, but not by anything like 90 degrees, which as you say would then have you going the wrong way down the TSS. Turning sharply to port or stopping and waiting for the ship to go by would also be acceptable.

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[bedouin]

Re: No, not necessarily.

That is the issue I was raising earlier. If you act as if you were give way, and so turn to pass astern, then you are in great danger should the ship give way too. That is why I don't agree with the "always give way to the ship" approach.

I am advocating turning to port only when the ship is to starboard to avoid

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[Gunfleet]

Re: Dear Capt Nitpick

I see from your personal notes you must have crossed the channel plenty of times, so you must have had the experience - a vessel pointed straight at you will show both 'running' lights. Sometimes it shows two white lights on top of each other as well and then you know his minimum length too. This can happen from any angle - not just from head on. When big ships are around in the baie de Seine I am particularily careful not to get run down from behind.

Since they converging ships may be doing 25 knots and in my case I was doing (on my last crossing) an average of 2.9 SOG (that's right, the decimal point isn't a mistake) I had plenty of time to observe them. With the discrepancy of speeds I 'decided' to cross no one - they decided whether to pass in front of or behind me! So, for some of them, you'd see the port light some way off and it would continue as the vessel passed in front of you. For others, you'd see the port light, then for a while you'd see p & s and you'd think, oh dear I hope he's noticed, and then you'd see the starboard one and think 'oh good he has.' But in daylight the uncertainty can last a lot longer. Enough of this subject now, I think, save to say in my experience ship's deck officers are very very careful passing yachtsmen, despite what you read from time to time.

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[AndrewB]

Re: No, not necessarily.

It is not a matter of which way you are crossing. Whichever way you are travelling, in the first lane you cross ships approach you on your port side and you are normally the stand-on vessel. In the second lane ships approach from your starboard side and you are the give-way vessel (at least, by the rules for power vessels, which is what ships seem to assume). It is in the first lane that the real problems arise for a yacht. In the second its easier: the ships stand on and leave up to you the business of giving way. Yes, as the give-way vessel you can then turn sharply to port and travel in the direction of the traffic, but I think a modest turn to starboard to pass under a ship's stern is normally quite reasonable.

 

[ParaHandy]

... pass 0.5nm ahead of a ship doing 25kn and you will pass her beam a lot closer than 0.5nm ... you hear and read of this somewhat misleading excuse quite often in MAIB transcripts ...

getting that close (in fog), or calculating to be that close, would place undue and perhaps unwise reliance on the accuracy of electronic aids?

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[ParaHandy]

Re: Dear Capt Nitpick

one abiding recollection of trolling thro' MAIB reports is how often a contributory factor is the mental and physical state of the deck officers. Some would certainly not be considered fit to drive a lorry on UK roads ...

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[Gunfleet]

Re: Dear Capt Nitpick

You don't think the ones who've had accidents are a self selecting group, para?

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[duncan]

that's what I (think) I said! In the numerical example I gave you would have to start 0.5 miles before the ships track when it was 5 miles away to end up 0.5 miles past when it went by (so to speak).

however this does seem to make crossing a 'busy' shipping lane somewhat difficult so where do you compromise, and how?

<hr width=100% size=1>madesco madidum ..../forums/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[Guest]

Re: Dear Capt Nitpick

I was a Deck Officer for 17 yrs and I'm sorry but nitpicking is not my aim - my aim was to correct so that others new to the game didn't think just seeing one light is OK and boat will pass .....

It is NOT true that one side light alone will mean boat will pass clear. As I said its easy to draw it out that for example a green light seen on port bow ..... you are normally the stand on vessel .... but he may on a course that runs right through you and if he doesn't alter to stbd to pass port to port ....... then where is your statement about one side light ?????

Nitpick ?? I ask you - since when is prudent seamanship nitpicking ??


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[Guest]

I think prudent action is best

I remember my aural test for my Second Mates ...... I wont quote the year - but Col Regs were just changing from the 50's to 70's version.

I was asked what I would do if I saw these lights on my port bow .... the lights were for a tug and tow NOT restricted in ability to manoeuvre but greater than xxx ft.

I replied that as per Col Regs I would stand on, but given prudent seamanship - it was easier for me to avoid collision and that I would make BOLD and obvious alteration of course along with appropriate sound signal (in exams we do that TOOT TOOT !!), so that he could continue his way....... the examiner was pleased with the answer and expanded further by saying - note this guy was Southampton Based and a Senior DTi Examiner - it's a pity that many others don't take such bold and prudent action when they are aware that the other vessel is not so easy to manoeuvre .... as he put it standing on regardless and irresponsibly can in fact cause problems I am not going to argue with such experienced guy ......

But I'm sure if same question was posted here - there would be many who would die with the rule book in hand .... Here lieth a rule quoter - May he RIP ....


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[Guest]

Re: No, not necessarily.

The rules do say BOLD action ..... so dithering is the worst form that anyone can take ... the other is when 2 or 3 people decide what to do !!

Bold obvious and early ..... one mile is sweet fanny adams to a girt big bulkie or tanker ...... he already thinks you are a nutter if your'e that close !!!


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: Dear Capt Nitpick

Nigel, I knew you were a deck officer for umpteen years and was pulling your leg about it - nothing serious. And I did agree you were right with your earlier post! The main thrust of mine really was that when the red and green are visible the bloody thing is aimed straight at you. Am i wrong? John

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[LadyInBed]

Re: Dear Capt Nitpick

Depends if there is a X current /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

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[dralex]

What's the maximum number of replies to a post? THis one is storming along with replies still.

<hr width=100% size=1>Life's too short- do it now./forums/images/icons/wink.gif

 

[Observer]

The point you're all missing, in my opinion, is that these rules only apply where "a risk of collision exists". That is a subjective judgement. If you (in a small sailing or motor vessel) recognise a possibility of a close quarters situation with a big ship, which should be BEFORE a 'risk of collision exists', surely the sensible thing to do (assuming a 'one on one' with no other vessels to be concerned about) is to make a sufficiently bold alteration of course so as to pass astern of the ship, whether that means turning to port or starboard. Once you've done that, the 'risk of collision' no longer exists so COLREGS are academic.



<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://aflcharters.co.uk>Dream Dancer</A>

 

[Guest]

Ok - I agree !!!

No problem .....

<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/