jimi
Well-known member
when crossing shipping lanes do you decide risk of collision exists and take action?
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At what distance...
- Thread starter jimi
- Start date
bedouin
Well-known member
I sail across them - so as stand on vessel I do not have to take action, just maintain course and speed /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
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Cobra
Well-known member
Surely...
...power gives way to sail in any case Bedders, so no real worry on either score!
<hr width=100% size=1>When God invented time he didn't give me enough of it. ND!
...power gives way to sail in any case Bedders, so no real worry on either score!
<hr width=100% size=1>When God invented time he didn't give me enough of it. ND!
zefender
Active member
Er I think if risk of collision exists you are obliged to take action regardless of status as stand on.
It sort of depends on the speed of the ship but I tend to use about a mile as 'panic point'
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It sort of depends on the speed of the ship but I tend to use about a mile as 'panic point'
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tcm
...
er well, good windup bedouin!
anyway, in answer to jimi's q, i wd have radar showing trails and adjust from two miles off, making it very clear by no less than a mile off whether i intended to go in front or behind.
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anyway, in answer to jimi's q, i wd have radar showing trails and adjust from two miles off, making it very clear by no less than a mile off whether i intended to go in front or behind.
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AndrewB
Well-known member
I'll risk going much closer in a busy TSS where everyone is alert and too much caution gets you nowhere, than in a quiet shipping lane where the watchkeeper may be dozing, and nothing much is lost by delaying.
With the former and if I'm the stand-on vessel, then if they haven't given way when within one mile of me, its high time to abort, a 90 deg turn. As the give-way vessel, I give way as soon as it is quite clear I cannot cross in front with at least ½ mile clearance. (That is the absolute minimum clearance ahead - many people prefer more).
PS Ships in a TSS invariably interpret their obligations on the assumption you are under power, so ignore the special rights of sailing boats.
With the former and if I'm the stand-on vessel, then if they haven't given way when within one mile of me, its high time to abort, a 90 deg turn. As the give-way vessel, I give way as soon as it is quite clear I cannot cross in front with at least ½ mile clearance. (That is the absolute minimum clearance ahead - many people prefer more).
PS Ships in a TSS invariably interpret their obligations on the assumption you are under power, so ignore the special rights of sailing boats.
dralex
New member
When you can see the whites of their eyes.
<hr width=100% size=1>Life's too short- do it now./forums/images/icons/wink.gif
<hr width=100% size=1>Life's too short- do it now./forums/images/icons/wink.gif
G
Guest
Guest
When successive bearings / observations determine that risk of collision exists or will exist without change of course or speed by one or either of vessels.
Distnace is relative to location and amount of searoom available. eg - passing ships at sea rarely pass closer than a mile, even that is considered close by some Masters / Company's. Inshore of course a mile is not posible and therefore revision of that is necessary.
On one ship - we had standing orders by the Master that stated clearly if after 2 compass bearings of a vessel and no change - we were to call him to take suitable action ..... he soon got fed up with being called middle of night at great distances from other vessels. He revised his orders to more follow more experienced betters !!!!
<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/
Distnace is relative to location and amount of searoom available. eg - passing ships at sea rarely pass closer than a mile, even that is considered close by some Masters / Company's. Inshore of course a mile is not posible and therefore revision of that is necessary.
On one ship - we had standing orders by the Master that stated clearly if after 2 compass bearings of a vessel and no change - we were to call him to take suitable action ..... he soon got fed up with being called middle of night at great distances from other vessels. He revised his orders to more follow more experienced betters !!!!
<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/
webcraft
Well-known member
It rather depends on the vessel . . . if it's a Macbraynes ferry, then I usually wait until I can see the whites of their eyes, but if it's a big ship in a TSS then that's another matter.
We met three tankers crossing the North Channel on Friday and altered for one of them (see pic). I altered at probably a bit under a mile when the relative bearing hadn't changed for five minutes.
I don't think there is any hard and fast rule as to when to alter . . . it depends on approach angles and relative speeds . . . the tanker we altered for was doing maybe fifteen knots, while one of the others seemed to be only doing maybe six knots.
Re. being the stand-on vessel - I don't think so . . . a large tanker in a TSS is restricted in her ability to manoevre, and I think it is optimistic to expect them to go round you. A large and obvious course alteration in plenty of time is the seamanlike thing to do, IMHO.
- Nick
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We met three tankers crossing the North Channel on Friday and altered for one of them (see pic). I altered at probably a bit under a mile when the relative bearing hadn't changed for five minutes.
I don't think there is any hard and fast rule as to when to alter . . . it depends on approach angles and relative speeds . . . the tanker we altered for was doing maybe fifteen knots, while one of the others seemed to be only doing maybe six knots.
Re. being the stand-on vessel - I don't think so . . . a large tanker in a TSS is restricted in her ability to manoevre, and I think it is optimistic to expect them to go round you. A large and obvious course alteration in plenty of time is the seamanlike thing to do, IMHO.
- Nick
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G
Guest
Guest
Webcraft ........ <Re. being the stand-on vessel - I don't think so . . . a large tanker in a TSS is restricted in her ability to manoevre, and I think it is optimistic to expect them to go round you. A large and obvious course alteration in plenty of time is the seamanlike thing to do, IMHO.>
I totally agree here.......
As to the photo - you'll probably find this is not a tanker, but a small bulk or single hatch dry-cargo vessel .... I don't see pipe connections midships.
<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/
I totally agree here.......
As to the photo - you'll probably find this is not a tanker, but a small bulk or single hatch dry-cargo vessel .... I don't see pipe connections midships.
<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/
bedouin
Well-known member
If you apply Colregs strictly then if you determine visually that risk of collision exists then as stand on vessel you should maintain course and speed. If the give way vessel does not take early and obvious action to avoid collision then you may take appropriate action yourself. If you get to the stage were action by the give way vessel alone is not sufficient to avoid collision then you must take whatever action is required.
The interesting point about Jimi's question is how long we give the ship to avoid us before we take action ourselves
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The interesting point about Jimi's question is how long we give the ship to avoid us before we take action ourselves
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dralex
New member
More seriously than my last response, I have not really had any close calls yet. I have my radar reflector near the top of the mast, and wonder if this makes them pick me up on radar earlier. Whether they alter course or not I don't know. Despite the rules, my plan of attack would be to do a 180 turn if there was any doubt.
<hr width=100% size=1>Life's too short- do it now./forums/images/icons/wink.gif
<hr width=100% size=1>Life's too short- do it now./forums/images/icons/wink.gif
jimi
Well-known member
How long.. exactly the point!.. I usually estimate 3 mins per mile, so I want to be taking action at between 2 & 3 miles at the latest!
<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by jimi on 09/08/2004 14:44 (server time).</FONT></P>
<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by jimi on 09/08/2004 14:44 (server time).</FONT></P>
bedouin
Well-known member
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>
Re. being the stand-on vessel - I don't think so . . . a large tanker in a TSS is restricted in her ability to manoevre, and I think it is optimistic to expect them to go round you. A large and obvious course alteration in plenty of time is the seamanlike thing to do, IMHO.
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You need to check the definition again. A vessel "restricted in her ability to manoeuvre" is one that by the nature of her operations has reduced ability to alter course, such as a ship carrying out an underwater survey, or an aircraft carrier launching or recovering aircraft. That doesn't cover a tanker unless it is involved with refuelling at sea /forums/images/icons/smile.gif (although it could be constrained by draft).
In a TSS you are required not to impede a tanker, and it may well be both seaman like and prudent to take early action to avoid, but once "risk of collision" exists, you are the stand on vessel
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Re. being the stand-on vessel - I don't think so . . . a large tanker in a TSS is restricted in her ability to manoevre, and I think it is optimistic to expect them to go round you. A large and obvious course alteration in plenty of time is the seamanlike thing to do, IMHO.
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You need to check the definition again. A vessel "restricted in her ability to manoeuvre" is one that by the nature of her operations has reduced ability to alter course, such as a ship carrying out an underwater survey, or an aircraft carrier launching or recovering aircraft. That doesn't cover a tanker unless it is involved with refuelling at sea /forums/images/icons/smile.gif (although it could be constrained by draft).
In a TSS you are required not to impede a tanker, and it may well be both seaman like and prudent to take early action to avoid, but once "risk of collision" exists, you are the stand on vessel
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Peppermint
New member
Re: Varies
I like to leave it late enough not to lose too much ground. Then do the point the bows at his stern thing. It's just an experience based judgement.
The most dangerous assumption is that he's seen you.
The second most dangerous is that he'll keep to his course. Quite often you do everything by the book and he alters course and puts you back in strife.
The third is that your looking at the ship that is the threat. It spoils your whole day to sneak across the bows of one ship only to find your in a bit of a bind with the guy overtaking him.
The fourth is that any manouver he makes is because he's seen you.
Ships alter course for mysterious reasons to us yotties. Usually to line up with a distant channel or to accommodate another ship on radar.
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I like to leave it late enough not to lose too much ground. Then do the point the bows at his stern thing. It's just an experience based judgement.
The most dangerous assumption is that he's seen you.
The second most dangerous is that he'll keep to his course. Quite often you do everything by the book and he alters course and puts you back in strife.
The third is that your looking at the ship that is the threat. It spoils your whole day to sneak across the bows of one ship only to find your in a bit of a bind with the guy overtaking him.
The fourth is that any manouver he makes is because he's seen you.
Ships alter course for mysterious reasons to us yotties. Usually to line up with a distant channel or to accommodate another ship on radar.
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jamesjermain
Active member
In fog and navigating by radar I would not plan on passing closer than 2 miles from any ship.
In clear visibility I would be happy to pass half a mile ASTERN of a ship, a little more if crossing ahead.
On radar I would hope to be tracking, and if necessary plotting targets from 12 miles out though yachts and small fishing vessels would probably not resigster until 6 miles or less. Three plots six minutes apart would give a a good idea of CPA within 12 minues, by which time a ship making 15 knots would have travelled about three miles, so I would be in a position to take avoiding action with nine miles still to go - lots of time to decide what to do.
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In clear visibility I would be happy to pass half a mile ASTERN of a ship, a little more if crossing ahead.
On radar I would hope to be tracking, and if necessary plotting targets from 12 miles out though yachts and small fishing vessels would probably not resigster until 6 miles or less. Three plots six minutes apart would give a a good idea of CPA within 12 minues, by which time a ship making 15 knots would have travelled about three miles, so I would be in a position to take avoiding action with nine miles still to go - lots of time to decide what to do.
<hr width=100% size=1>JJ
jimi
Well-known member
Re: Varies
Absolutely .. I always cross shipping lanes with the radar on and its not the buggers that you see that are the potential problem, it the three coming up almost abreast just behind them! I often alter course when I see a batch of ships on radar to clear the batch rather than one specific ship.
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Absolutely .. I always cross shipping lanes with the radar on and its not the buggers that you see that are the potential problem, it the three coming up almost abreast just behind them! I often alter course when I see a batch of ships on radar to clear the batch rather than one specific ship.
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bedouin
Well-known member
But what action to do you take?
The problem is that usually a vessel should alter course to pass astern of the other. If you both decide to alter course at the same time you will put yourself back on a collision course.
In practice I think I usually alter course about 5 mins before the potential collision, pointing my bow at the other boat's stern and following her round
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The problem is that usually a vessel should alter course to pass astern of the other. If you both decide to alter course at the same time you will put yourself back on a collision course.
In practice I think I usually alter course about 5 mins before the potential collision, pointing my bow at the other boat's stern and following her round
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claymore
Well-known member
Having never sailed across the channel on anything other than a ferry but having read plenty both here and elsewhere - is the problem not so much about calculating how to miss one ship but more about how to miss a continuous procession of them and if so is the strategy not slightly more global?
The ships we meet up with are all either Calmacs or coasters and they go so much faster than us that if we just hold our course they tend to be past and gone by the time our tracks have intersected. With fishing boats they tend to be unpredictable anyway so it is worth waiting till we get close because anticipating what they might do is almost impossible
We used to do all sorts of fiddling about altering course etc but experience has shown that there's little need - that is in Scottish West Coast waters of course
<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple>regards
Claymore<font color=purple>
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The ships we meet up with are all either Calmacs or coasters and they go so much faster than us that if we just hold our course they tend to be past and gone by the time our tracks have intersected. With fishing boats they tend to be unpredictable anyway so it is worth waiting till we get close because anticipating what they might do is almost impossible
We used to do all sorts of fiddling about altering course etc but experience has shown that there's little need - that is in Scottish West Coast waters of course
<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple>regards
Claymore<font color=purple>
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dralex
New member
That's where radar is a nice luxury, because you can see the procession of boats and plan which gap to aim for. Even in good visibility it helps planning and knowing what's around the corner so to speak.
<hr width=100% size=1>Life's too short- do it now./forums/images/icons/wink.gif
<hr width=100% size=1>Life's too short- do it now./forums/images/icons/wink.gif