Assistance for inverted sailing dinghy

[Puffin10032]

I'm thankful to say it did not. Last night, I read that my vintage of Osprey is particularly awkward to right from inversion, and despite my experience, apparently her buoyant side-tanks make her more inclined to go all the way over

I raced Ospreys for about 20 years (70s through 80s). I owned three of them - one Mark 2 and two Mark 3s. The Mark2s were rather prone to inversion (too much buoyancy - a fault that many more modern racing dinghies also have). Part of the design rework that Ian Proctor did for the Mark 3 was to reduce that excess (I remember being at the Mumbles Nationals in 1973 where we overwhealmingly voted the rule change through) and I have to say that although I once inverted my Mark2 in the three years I sailed her but I never inverted any of my Mark 3s in the following 17ish years. There is now a "Mark2A" class approved modification which basically allows the rear tank of a Mark2 to flood. I strongly advise that you do that mod if at all possible. If you need any tips about setting up and sailing Ospreys feel free to PM me.

All the best.

 

[lw395]

When I awoke yesterday it looked a little breezy for easy sailing, but my mate was keen, so off we went, although I insisted we took a deep reef. In the event, even he was glad we had reduced sail. With the full mainsail up, I'm certain we'd have gone for a swim.

Of course, a bare mast with the mainsail only two-thirds the way to the top of it, has significantly less resistance to a rapid inversion...so despite reducing the likelihood of a knock-down, I had increased the risk of inversion, if capsize were to occur.

I'm thankful to say it did not. Last night, I read that my vintage of Osprey is particularly awkward to right from inversion, and despite my experience, apparently her buoyant side-tanks make her more inclined to go all the way over. So after a great day of restrained sailing in boisterous conditions, I'm more than ever convinced that the masthead float is my best bet for minimum trouble.

The ineradicable stigma associated with such a visible precaution, doesn't suit racers' egos and may not be prudent in high winds where a capsized boat can drift faster than swimming speed. But for casual weekend-racers in moderate conditions, I'm surprised if such a simple, cheap addition (which would also put them back in the race more quickly) isn't used.

Combined with their bold (incomprehensible ) readiness to launch on freezing low-season days, it may prevent near-tragedies too.

Of course, top racers will have the technique to cope with inversion swiftly, perhaps without even preventing their placing. But I'm thinking of the thousands of dinghy-sailors like me, who are neither young nor fit, nor well-practiced in recovering from capsize...

...most of them still seem more daunted by taunting, than by hypothermia or drowning.

You seem frankly very opinionated and ill-informed about dinghy racers.
To be honest, your opinions on what others should do are not that valuable up against the collective wisdom of thousands of racers each of which probably puts more hours on the water than you do and has been doing so for years.

If my boat inverts when I'm racing, I'm unlikely to win the race and it's an annoying nuisance.
But if the wheels really come off, two people sat on an inverted hull will be easy to find by the safety boat.
When you are sailing without safety cover, you need to be confident you can right from an inversion.
I can, I've done it a few times. I've fitted righting lines to make it quicker and easier.

We don't do hypothermia, we wear the right clothing for the occasion. We don't even do 'chilly'.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

You seem frankly very opinionated and ill-informed about dinghy racers.To be honest, your opinions on what others should do are not that valuable up against the collective wisdom of thousands of racers each of which probably puts more hours on the water than you do and has been doing so for years.If my boat inverts when I'm racing, I'm unlikely to win the race and it's an annoying nuisance.But if the wheels really come off, two people sat on an inverted hull will be easy to find by the safety boat.When you are sailing without safety cover, you need to be confident you can right from an inversion.I can, I've done it a few times. I've fitted righting lines to make it quicker and easier.We don't do hypothermia, we wear the right clothing for the occasion. We don't even do 'chilly'.

Absolutely. How dare he come on this forum with an opinion....

 

[Greenheart]

You seem frankly very opinionated and ill-informed about dinghy racers.

No point arguing with you on technical questions LW395, because I rate your ability and experience very highly, and have learned much from you. But for clarity, as an observer of many races from the safety boat, I was not talking about fellows like you.

I envy your nonchalance and the fact you never get chilly...but if inversion is only an "annoying nuisance" to you, what are you contributing here? I believe my previous post was very clear - I took care to state that top crews are largely self-reliant. Nevertheless, a broad section of weekend racers do not share your skill, and are conspicuously less resilient.

My opinion of other sailors (not exclusively singlehanders) is based on seeing abler crews than me, routinely requiring assistance after inversion. In my case, I believe a masthead float will reduce the requirement of effort that inversion adds to capsize. Note that I did not say anyone should do the same - though it might well have prevented various worrying, race-losing denouements.

I've known singlehanders who just wouldn't hoist a mast-top float, suffer irrecoverable inversions requiring RIB assistance and even First Aid, plus damage to mastheads stuck in the seabed. I'm not convinced all those situations were unpreventable. That's all. :encouragement:

 

[Greenheart]

I raced Ospreys for about 20 years...The Mark2s were rather prone to inversion (too much buoyancy)...There is now a "Mark2A" class approved modification which allows the rear tank of a Mark2 to flood. I strongly advise that you do that mod if at all possible.

Thank you for your insight Puffin, it's food for thought. When I bought my Mark 2, I was faintly disgusted by the brutish way the rear cockpit bulkhead had been cut away...but I guess this must have been a step towards what you describe, a Mk2A conversion...

...above is before I had stuffed the void with empty plastic bottles to regain lost buoyancy... :hopeless: ...below is after adding a nice new ply bulwark (with lockers) to enclose the flotation. Can I can call it restoration, rather than retrogression, from Mk2A to Mk2?

Ripping that lot out wouldn't be easy to do, after the satisfaction I gained from doing it, and the approval I've heard from observers...

...all in order to make her lie flat and low when knocked down...which I guess, means she comes upright with fifty gallons of green water in the cockpit. Plus, I think the full Mk2A version included slots in the top of the rear deck, like these below (not my boat)...

...hmm...p'raps I'll do a few more capsize drills before committing myself to cutting her wide open again. Thanks, though.

 

[TLouth7]

A lot of modern dinghies will come up from an inversion much faster/easier with weight at the transom. This is easily achieved on a double-hander by having the crew climb onto the gunwale at the stern, with the helm at the daggerboard. As the boat comes up to horizontal the crew can then swim round ready for a scoop recovery.

I used to have a masthead float on my Laser 3000 (small space hopper or bunch of balloons) because it would invert quite quickly. Also my weight alone was not enough to get it upright fast, so I fitted ~18" lines at the shroud bases to allow leaning further back while standing on the daggerboard (leaning over to get hold of a jibsheet would invariably lead to inverting). Precautions to facilitate rapid recovery from capsize were necessary for purely competitive reasons, we were fit enough not to get dangerously tired (and were not normally sailing out at sea).

Edit to add:

Dinghy racers do tend to think about their own safety. For example my mum is quite short and not very strong, and as a result cannot easily get herself back onboard a Laser after righting it. She thus chooses to sail a Topper in marginal conditions as with lower freeboard and more toestraps they are easier to get back into.

 

[lw395]

No point arguing with you on technical questions LW395, because I rate your ability and experience very highly, and have learned much from you. But for clarity, as an observer of many races from the safety boat, I was not talking about fellows like you.

I envy your nonchalance and the fact you never get chilly...but if inversion is only an "annoying nuisance" to you, what are you contributing here? I believe my previous post was very clear - I took care to state that top crews are largely self-reliant. Nevertheless, a broad section of weekend racers do not share your skill, and are conspicuously less resilient.

My opinion of other sailors (not exclusively singlehanders) is based on seeing abler crews than me, routinely requiring assistance after inversion. In my case, I believe a masthead float will reduce the requirement of effort that inversion adds to capsize. Note that I did not say anyone should do the same - though it might well have prevented various worrying, race-losing denouements.

I've known singlehanders who just wouldn't hoist a mast-top float, suffer irrecoverable inversions requiring RIB assistance and even First Aid, plus damage to mastheads stuck in the seabed. I'm not convinced all those situations were unpreventable. That's all. :encouragement:

The point is that people taking asistance from a safety boat when they invert are learning about inversion, how to prevent and deal with it.
They will learn that a lot more easily than they'll learn to swim at 8 knots.

In my club, damage from inversions this year or last: Nil.
Requirement for First Aid etc as a result of inversion: Nil.
Risk of anyone having their boat blow away from them: As close to nil as it can be made.

We do use floats for beginners, but a higher level of supervision is required. More saftey/coach boats, and the group kept closer together.
You are right, damage from inversions can happen. I lost an £8 burgee the season before last.
I know people who have lost masts capsizing in 25 knots while attempting to enter Chichester Harbour against the ebb, I doubt a little masthead float would have changed that outcome.

 

[JumbleDuck]

The point is that people taking asistance from a safety boat when they invert are learning about inversion, how to prevent and deal with it.

If they have already inverted, what are they learning about preventing it?

The nearest yacht club near me has a large and lively fleet of Flying Fifteen, almost all crewed by retired people. I gather from conversation that the attraction is fast, fun sailing without the risk of capsize or worse.

 

[lw395]

If they have already inverted, what are they learning about preventing it?

The nearest yacht club near me has a large and lively fleet of Flying Fifteen, almost all crewed by retired people. I gather from conversation that the attraction is fast, fun sailing without the risk of capsize or worse.

Did anyone ever learn to ride a bike without falling off?
Like any other aspect of sailing, you learn by doing and if it doesn't come out right, try to understand what went wrong, try again next time.
I've only sailed ffing fifteens a couple of times.
They maybe are harder to capsize than most dinghies, but my impression was that I was getting wetter than in a wet dinghy on a wet day.
They are not that fast, much slower on PY than an Osprey, but they go very well in non-planing conditions due to being long. Fleet racing in small one design keelboats is generally very good racing, particularly if you're looking for tactics and subtlety rather than adrenaline, so I'd probably buy one if I had local racing on offer against the right people and all that. Equally you can get that in Squibs, XODs and others depending where you are.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Did anyone ever learn to ride a bike without falling off?

I did. So did my crew. And I didn't unintentionally capsize a sailing dinghy until I was 44 years old. Standing on the sidedeck of a Sea Scout Wayfarer, pulling at the shrouds until she finally went over, got me my RYA Elementary Dayboat certificate aged 14 but it didn't really approximate reality.

Like any other aspect of sailing, you learn by doing and if it doesn't come out right, try to understand what went wrong, try again next time.

Of course but there is a time for everything and not everybody wants to invert their dinghy every time they go over simply to build character. I used to be a little wizz at recovering from spins in gliders, but I never spun accidentally and would have been most annoyed at myself if I had.

So basically I can see why some people wouldn't mind inverting in a capsize, why some people would take precautions to prevent inverting in a capsize (I used to sail with the Scouts at Lochwinnoch which is so shallow that inverting usually meant getting stuck and often meant damage to the mast) and don't think either group is silly for their opinion.

 

[lw395]

I don't think preventing an inversion is silly, provided you have the means to cope with the consequences, which can include the boat being blown away faster than you can swim.
Likewise if you invert a boat and stick the mast in the mud, the tide may take you away from it, faster than you could swim.

What I do think is silly is Dan suggesting that 99% of the dinghy sailing world are foolish not to follow his lead in using a masthead float, when the dinghy sailing world has been considering the issues for a very long time.

Personally I prefer to sail the livelier dinghies, which implies a certain level of risk which is offset by racing where and there is a degree of safety boat support. It's a whole different facet of sailing to sailing a seaworthy cruiser out of sight of the rest of the world.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I am O.P., that is what is more or less what we did, although I must admit I did not enquire if there was anyone else sailing with him.

No criticism intended but i hope the dinghy sailor will have a think next time he goes out alone. Surely someone makes a neat automatically inflated mast head float.

As you said, it all ended well and it was just a bit of a diversion.

Didn't Donald Crowhurst hope to market one?

 

[Greenheart]

I know people who have lost masts capsizing in 25 knots...I doubt a little masthead float would have changed that outcome.

:biggrin-new: Well, we're certainly unlikely to find out!

In my club, damage from inversions this year or last: Nil. Requirement for First Aid etc as a result of inversion: Nil.

Damn sure my club has no records of unfortunate drawn-out episodes following capsizes, either...but some whopping (and more common minor) dramas still occur. I applaud your club's better efficiency and abilities - but it's not the same everywhere.

Dan suggesting that 99% of the dinghy sailing world are foolish not to follow his lead in using a masthead float.

I don't think I did...

...let's not kid ourselves, if they didn't see the benefit of a float after failing to recover their own boats, I'm not going to persuade singlehanders at my club that at times it may be better to prevent inversion, than to prove they know the theory of dealing with it...

...and likewise, they're not going to convince me that I'll encounter less trouble by cavalierly risking an inversion, having practiced dealing with it, than by being methodical about preventing it.

If I raced my boat, I might believe she ought to be utterly controllable and that I could do anything with her. That's not the case, nor do I expect it to be, so I'm careful, and perfectly happy not pushing my luck. In six summers, our safety boat never had to assist me.

I can see why some people wouldn't mind inverting in a capsize, why some people would take precautions to prevent inverting in a capsize (I used to sail with the Scouts at Lochwinnoch which is so shallow that inverting usually meant getting stuck and often meant damage to the mast) and don't think either group is silly for their opinion.

Blessed is the peacemaker. :encouragement:

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Thanks. He was wearing a wetsuit. I called it in as shock - listless, vacant eyes, looking confused and I didn't see any signs of the common signs of hypothermia such as blue lips. I was told later the First Responders called it as hypothermia, which I suppose could have set in before they got to him.

Which reminds me that I need to update first aid as its more than 3 years since I last did the course.

Blue lips aren't a classic sign of hypothermia; confusion and inverted sensations of warmth are. Hypothermic people often try and remove clothing and resist being warmed.