Are modern boats up to it?

[Phoenix of Hamble]

I really don't get this whole AWB vs MAB argument.... i've owned both.... and they are all just fine for sailing in pretty much anything i've been out in.... of course they do different things better than each other.... but as has been alluded above, the only person who can decide which characteristics suit them best is the boat buyer themself.... if AWBs were downright dangerous, then we'd have heard a lot more from a lot more influential people than the disgruntled bleatings of a few folk on here!

Best advice of all... buy a boat that you like.... it'll make you much happier!

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Whenever these old vs new threads get started up I swear that I wont reply but every time I get sucked in.

Anyway.

Having lived aboard for a while in a Marina it is noticeable that only about 10% of the boats actually go out sailing. The rest get visitors at the weekends that immediately get the drinks out and just sit there before going home.

So? Once met a guy who had bought a 45 ft mobo on the cheap with duff engines. He explained he didnt need the engines - the boat was towed into its berth in a south coast marina. As he put it, where could be buy a sea side holiday cottage so cheaply? My wife has a similar view of our boat.

Modern boats are spacious, have two heads, the biggest owners cabin they can fit in and the interior looks good in brochure glossy pictures but have designers and builders of boats compromised themselves to sell more units.

To sell any units. The only really old design modern build boat I can think of is the Mystery 35 and that bombed. People no more want a narrow gutted smelly and damp old boat than they queue up to buy an Austin Ambassador or a Morris Cowley. We've moved on.

At one time boats were built to the designer’s specification and then a price was decided upon. Now it seems that a price is decided upon and a boat is built to those specifications.

Wrong. A boat was only designed first and costed afterwards when commissioned by an individual buyer in the very old days. As soon as series production started it had to be the other way round and even then, all the high end UK builders went bust

A boat used to be over engineered but now only the minimum spec parts are added.

Only over engineered through ignorance. Why build unnecessary mnaterials into a boat and then have to charge more for it? Just what is the point? Or to put it another way, would you like to fly in a jumbo built of cast iron?

Have boat builders sacrificed the ability of a boat to sail well in favour of just selling more.

You really have to be joking here. A few high end cruiser racers apart, all modern boats sail better than the oldies. Its called progress and what makes you think that every other industry but boatbuilding can progress and we cant?

Doubt it? Just compare the sailing performance of a Contessa 32 with a modern cruiser racer.

As usual I may be too far behind the times and the plastic this and that on modern boats are as good as or better than the old ones made out of traditional materials.

If you like maintenance I guess you can still buy a wood boat.

Would you buy a new production boat or use the same money to buy an older boat?
I may be totally wrong and stand to be corrected but I would like to hear the views of others.

Thats an impossible question because you arent usually comparing size with size. But at a time when the cost of an older British boat was the same as the same sized new benny, most people bought new but a sizeable proportion bought old . Personally I would go for an older modern ie I would buy a second hand HR 36 rather than a new Benny 36 and I wouldnt go near a Rival of 20 years earlier.

P.S. I assume your post is tongue in cheek - after all you have bought a modern boat.

 

[Koeketiene]

A few high end cruiser racers apart, all modern boats sail better than the oldies.

Thank you for bringing some humour to this thread - I needed a good laugh.

Other than that, share Morgana's (sorry, Phoenix of Hamble) attitude: buy the boat you're happy with.

 

[doris]

To sell any units. The only really old design modern build boat I can think of is the Mystery 35 and that bombed. People no more want a narrow gutted smelly and damp old boat than they queue up to buy an Austin Ambassador or a Morris Cowley. We've moved on.

.

The M35 is built to old dimensions but the design is very modern Stephen Jones. They sail extremely well and are quick. Those who have them love them. There are a few about now and they will walk past you if are not careful. I agree that they are cramped and I would have no interest in one but some people like things tight.

I agree with everything else you say though.

 

[doug748]

Bosun Higgs is all for the myth that modern boats are alike:

"all modern boats sail better than the oldies"

Now, I have my doubts. I have been thinking about this a bit. It seems to me that all the better newish boats are quick off the mark because they are similar to the old guard and very different to their tubby cousins.

B Higgs line of logic is:

New Racing boats are quick, My boat is new, Therefore my boat is quick. QED

Modern fast boats are grand. The concept is well proven: Build a light hull, put a tall fractional rig on top, fine entry at the front, lift the stern clear of the water at the back, reduce displacement through modest extra beam, fit a deep heavy keel, plenty of canvas, keep windage to a minimum.

How do AW production boats differ? Perhaps: Modest low rigs, short iron keels, twin rudders, hulls filled out fore and aft,, deep topsides, great internal headroom, MDF furniture pushed to the ends and sterns that drag in light airs.

The Technical Editor of PBO, David Harding, described some of these boats in this manner:

“...a lot of beamy, shallow draught cruisers slam, bang, wallow and broach their way slowly around the oceans...”

There was a recent post that posed the question of pointing ability, which met with a rare degree of general agreement. Taking these factors into consideration it might be argued that old rippers have more in common with fast modern racing boats than do their portly cruising contemporaries.
When designers are given the brief to produce vice free and rewarding cruising boats it is enlightening to see what they come up with. Look at Morris,Mystery,Alerion, Spirit and a whole slew of American and Continental yards building yachts designed with sailing in mind.
Look at the J124, deep draught, High ballast ratio, Low centre of gravity, Modest headroom, Slim hull, Low windage;
snug accommodation. Sounds familiar, Looks familiar.

BTW. Please don't brand me an enthusiast for any particular model or type of boat. If I needed a Bavaria 32, I would buy one like a shot (to pick a model out of the blue, but one I admire).
Some modern boats are very fast, astounding value, offer tremendous volume, and are a delight to sail. Like all boats they are never all four. I rest my case.

 

[flaming]

Taking these factors into consideration it might be argued that old rippers have more in common with fast modern racing boats than do their portly cruising contemporaries. .

But there's the thing. Often enthusiasts of the older boats will compare old with new, and compare a design that was intended as a cruiser racer (e.g. the Contessa 32) with a pure cruiser - A Bavaria 32.
That's not a correct comparison. The correct comparison is a Beneteau First, an Elan, a Dehler etc. In other words, boats with a similar general design brief. And a quick look at handicap numbers is all that it takes to show you that the Contessa 32, marvelous yacht though it is, is really not fast for its size by modern cruiser racer standards.

The correct comparison with the Bavaria is a Westerly or a Moody.

 

[doug748]

That's not a correct comparison. The correct comparison is a Beneteau First, an Elan, a Dehler etc.

That's right and the newer boat would prove faster every time, upwind and down. I know I have served my time chasing them

Still, thats a far cry from saying every newer boat would do it.

An even bigger ask to believe folk when they tell you, with an air of definitive perfection, this years boat is a better cruising design than last years. Because it is newer.

PS
Further to my last post here is a link to the 41 foot J124

http://www.jboats.com/j124/pdf/J124 Layout 5-16-05.pdf

familiar indeed.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

That's right and the newer boat would prove faster every time, upwind and down. I know I have served my time chasing them

Still, thats a far cry from saying every newer boat would do it.

An even bigger ask to believe folk when they tell you, with an air of definitive perfection, this years boat is a better cruising design than last years. Because it is newer.

PS
Further to my last post here is a link to the 41 foot J124

http://www.jboats.com/j124/pdf/J124 Layout 5-16-05.pdf

familiar indeed.

http://picasaweb.google.com/BurrBrothers/Wicked02?authkey=Gv1sRgCJmJhcyipqOFxwE#5350231505484404706

...yep, that looks like a modern boat .... nice

 

[Tranona]

The correct comparison with the Bavaria is a Westerly or a Moody.

That is a very valid comparison. Towards the end of the life of mid range Moodys and Westerlys, Bavaria was a direct competitor. Was on a 1999 Bav 35 the other day. The owner bought it new, having gone to the Boat Show intending to buy a Moody. In his view the Bav won hands down, even though the prices were then comparable. My 37 is a 2001 model, almost identical to the earlier 35 but a bit more "productionised" (easy to see the visible cost savings) and was 25% cheaper (not that I told him).

Maybe if British builders had gone down the mass production route they would still be with us. Little wrong with the basic design for the job, just too expensive.

Performance comparisons are equally valid, you see AWBs doing just the same things (coastal cruising, cross channel, sailing schools, charter boats etc) as the older boats did in their day.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Bosun Higgs is all for the myth that modern boats are alike:

"all modern boats sail better than the oldies"

Now, I have my doubts. I have been thinking about this a bit. It seems to me that all the better newish boats are quick off the mark because they are similar to the old guard and very different to their tubby cousins.

B Higgs line of logic is:

New Racing boats are quick, My boat is new, Therefore my boat is quick. QED

Modern fast boats are grand. The concept is well proven: Build a light hull, put a tall fractional rig on top, fine entry at the front, lift the stern clear of the water at the back, reduce displacement through modest extra beam, fit a deep heavy keel, plenty of canvas, keep windage to a minimum.

How do AW production boats differ? Perhaps: Modest low rigs, short iron keels, twin rudders, hulls filled out fore and aft,, deep topsides, great internal headroom, MDF furniture pushed to the ends and sterns that drag in light airs.

The Technical Editor of PBO, David Harding, described some of these boats in this manner:

“...a lot of beamy, shallow draught cruisers slam, bang, wallow and broach their way slowly around the oceans...”

There was a recent post that posed the question of pointing ability, which met with a rare degree of general agreement. Taking these factors into consideration it might be argued that old rippers have more in common with fast modern racing boats than do their portly cruising contemporaries.
When designers are given the brief to produce vice free and rewarding cruising boats it is enlightening to see what they come up with. Look at Morris,Mystery,Alerion, Spirit and a whole slew of American and Continental yards building yachts designed with sailing in mind.
Look at the J124, deep draught, High ballast ratio, Low centre of gravity, Modest headroom, Slim hull, Low windage;
snug accommodation. Sounds familiar, Looks familiar.

BTW. Please don't brand me an enthusiast for any particular model or type of boat. If I needed a Bavaria 32, I would buy one like a shot (to pick a model out of the blue, but one I admire).
Some modern boats are very fast, astounding value, offer tremendous volume, and are a delight to sail. Like all boats they are never all four. I rest my case.

The problem with the sort of generalisation I made is that you can always find an exception or two And maybe I should have put in more detail as indeed you have done - much of which I agree with.

But as Flaming points out, you really have to do the comparison like for like and when you do you almost always find that the modern boat sails better. And so it should - we are supposed to learn as we go through life and boat designers should and do learn to do a better job. Modern technology that allows lighter and stronger hulls helps increase the power to weight ratio. Better sail handling kit. Better hull shapes albeit in some cases rather than in most. Better sails. Better keel designs. All contribute.

 

[pugwash94]

But there's the thing. Often enthusiasts of the older boats will compare old with new, and compare a design that was intended as a cruiser racer (e.g. the Contessa 32) with a pure cruiser - A Bavaria 32.
That's not a correct comparison. The correct comparison is a Beneteau First, an Elan, a Dehler etc. In other words, boats with a similar general design brief. And a quick look at handicap numbers is all that it takes to show you that the Contessa 32, marvelous yacht though it is, is really not fast for its size by modern cruiser racer standards.

The correct comparison with the Bavaria is a Westerly or a Moody.

I agree - you have to compare like with like. But you are forgetting that when you do a comparison the key figure for size is LWL not LOA. Thus
Contessa 32 - LWL 24 ft
My Dufour 31 - LWL 23 ft
Modern First 30 - LWL 27.6 ft

The overhangs on the first two boats (that are in reality far smaller than the First) give them a kindlier motion in a seaway than they would otherwise enjoy

Incidentally my Dufour 31 measures 35 ft according to the yard when they include self steering gear and pulpit. The point is that LOA is not really a an effective comparative measure.

Having sailed both old and new, for a given LWL or even a mean of LWL and LOA I know that the older boats give a far more pleasant passage in a seaway and I seem to go faster than other comparable boats - in anything above a 5.

 

[Nostrodamus]

It is just not about speed when we are looking at the designs but the way they are made. I may well be wrong on this as I usually am but older boat designs seem to have taken the end users more into account. They seem to have smaller cockpits that seem safer at sea rathr than a football field that is good for entertaining. You also seem to be able to actually get to various systems to repair or check them where as on newer designs half the boat has to be taken apart to get at some things.
I stand here blindfolded having had my last meal waiting to be shot down!

 

[Tranona]

Sweeping generalisations never get very far. Builders build boats that reflect what their buyers want so in that sense the owner is central to their decisions on design and layout. Inevitably not all users want the same thing so there are bound to be some peole who want something different. If there are enough of them, builders will build something to suit.

Older designs of boats are like they are for all sorts of reasons to do with design ideas, methods of construction and patterns of use. 40 years ago the market was dominated by UK builders building boats for use in northern waters. So small cockpits, cosy cabins, windward performance etc were the characteristics that were valued. This is no longer the case. The UK market is relatively tiny, there are no volume builders and current buyers (who are mostly not in the UK) do not value the same features. So boats are different reflecting what today's buyers want.

There is nothing new about this - just look at local working boats and the variations according to location. Look at the difference between a Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter and a Turkish Gulet - each reflects its intended purpose and conditions of use.

Don't think your comment that modern boats are any more difficult to service and repair is valid - I would say just the opposite. Many older boats that were built as they went along rather than designed in advance are nightmares with inaccessible parts, poor systems etc - by todays' standards. You only have to hang around these fora to hear the tales of problems with older boats which are not necessarily age related but the result of poor design, poor quality or poor workmanship.

On a couple of occassions I have been tempted to buy a "proper" boat of the type generally considered superior, but after looking at a few I come back to my Bavaria and recognise how much better it is for my purposes - as well as in absolute terms.

Now I am guilty of generalisation! - actually this is a sterile debate. There are good and bad wherever you look. You made your own choice based on what you perceived was right for you. Many others choose differently, either because they are doing different things or are satisfied that their choice is just as valid as yours. One thing is sure, and that is many people who buy newer style boats have owned older boats in the past (because there was no alternative). Rarely do you find them unhappy with their new boats.