Are modern boats up to it?

[Ubergeekian]

As I already posted:

"Surely if long keel and overhangs were the only way to build a boat, would the largest builders of boats in Europe and the U.S. not be doing so? Are these builders all wrong? Would we not be seeing AWB's falling to pieces all over the world?"

Fact, we dont see modern boats falling apart

It's also fair to note, though, that how boats are used has changed drastically over the past thirty-ish years. Most buyers of new boats (not all, but most) will be aiming for a marina-to-marina existence. Living on the boat in the marina is fun, and there's no particular need to go out in wild weather. Thirty years ago time not sailing was much more likely to be in a harbour or anchorage without much or anything by way of facilities, so people spent a higher proportion of their time aboard under way.

The change has naturally informed yacht design. Those of us who don't really do the marina thing have loads of older boats to choose from; new boat tend to be aimed at the newer style of use.

There's room for us all.

 

[Ubergeekian]

The constant slamming of modern boats by those who chose differently is interesting, and faintly amusing, but I have to ask - what business is it of yours what other people choose to sail?

That's what I ask myself when owners of new boats describe older boats as "old tubs". What's it to them?

 

[Ubergeekian]

Truth is the MABs so beloved here are so slow they would never ever slam, because you have to be making headway above 3kts or so upwind for that...

Weight as Uffa Fox once said is only of use in steamrollers.

Uffa Fox's designs, of course, are MABs now.

 

[Robin]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q
"Truth is the MABs so beloved here are so slow they would never ever slam, because you have to be making headway above 3kts or so upwind for that...
Weight as Uffa Fox once said is only of use in steamrollers."


Well when I crossed Biscay in a Nic 38 3 seasons ago we didn't slam even being hardpressed in a F7 and we were making an average speed of over 6 knots, for 4 days and 500 miles.
What awb would you choose to do that in and
a. not get wet
b. be really comfortsable
c. feel safe?

Well we left Concarneau one day in company with some nice folk on a Nich 38 we had just met, going out to Glenans to anchor overnight before going 'on up' and through the Raz next day. It was blowing about F5, bit gusty and it was dead upwind to Glenans, just about 12 mls, to go so no real hassle even though the seas were sloppy leftovers from a windy night, and there was a longish fetch. Said Nich 38 couldn't point, nor was it at all quick so we left it behind pretty quickly. After about 4 mls they had enough and bore away to go to Benodet and the comforts of a nice warm marina, we know that because they told us when we met again later. We in the meantime, in our then Jeanneau sailed right into the anchorage in Glenans, had a pleasant night there before sailing out next morning and all the way to Camaret, via the Raz, all under sail. The Nich 38 motored all the way to Camaret and whilst we anchored, they went into the marina.

6kts in F7, gee whizz and you expect to slam? Take the brakes off!

On our Sun Legende we would sail upwind, optimum 28 degrees to the apparent wind (eat your heart out MABs) and optimum speed doing that 7kts. Up to the top of F5 upwind no spray reached the cockpit and we always sailed with the sprayhood down, not hidden in a makeshift wheelhouse.

Was it comfy, you bet...

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

6kts in F7, gee whizz and you expect to slam? Take the brakes off!

'Average'....
I think the Nic 38 you speak of must require new sails or perhaps the forestay tightening??
We found that putting an inner forestay with a hank on genoa much improved its pointing.

 

[sighmoon]

That's what I ask myself when owners of new boats describe older boats as "old tubs". What's it to them?

I've often referred to my own boats as tubs. It's meant affectionately. Sorry you took offence.

(My boat is 24 years old though, so I suspect you weren't referring to me.)

 

[Robin]

'Average'....
I think the Nic 38 you speak of must require new sails or perhaps the forestay tightening??
We found that putting an inner forestay with a hank on genoa much improved its pointing.

When the new owner took our last boat the115mls or so direct to Le Havre from Poole, there was ice on the decks and the forecast was for F5-7 increasing F8. It was a week before Xmas and they left (him plus a mate) at 16.00 so dark by then in a boat they had never sailed or even motored before. They had driving snow mid-Channel and winds over 40kts for several hours and having left in the dark they arrived in the dark. The AVERAGE speed for the entire trip, all sailed and no engine used, was 7.5kts but then they were taking it easy as the boat was new to them.

New sails would help any boat, but no new sail would get a Nich 38 pointing at 28 degrees to the apparent wind, let alone making 7kts at that angle. We could actually get to 22 degs apparent in smooth seas but boatspeed then was down to just 6kts. 28 @ 7kts was optimum, 7.2/7.3kts not unheard of, different world.

Nothing against Nich 38s by the way, but it is a very old design. Did they ever get round to making the cockpits of them self draining?

 

[Flying Penguin]

When I see one in a Solent marina I'll be worried

 

[Sans Bateau]

Sorry, is that an AWB then?

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Nothing against Nich 38s by the way, but it is a very old design. Did they ever get round to making the cockpits of them self draining?

Hi Robin... cockpit drains, I'm surprised if they weren't fitted as standard... are you sure that some didn't have?
I've only seen 4 Nic' 38's 'in the flesh' and sailed on the one which definatly had cockpit drains as it was a coded boat. The drains were in it when purchased pre-coding.

I looked at buying a Nic' 38' recently and the two I looked at also had them.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I may be mistaken, but this one looks like it has cockpit drains, into the saloon and aft cabin

http://www.western-horizon.co.uk/yacht-virtual-tour.php?boat_id=13

Mind you, you'd have to be going some to get any significant amount of water in the cockpit.

 

[Robin]

Hi Robin... cockpit drains, I'm surprised if they weren't fitted as standard... are you sure that some didn't have?
I've only seen 4 Nic' 38's 'in the flesh' and sailed on the one which definatly had cockpit drains as it was a coded boat. The drains were in it when purchased pre-coding.

I looked at buying a Nic' 38' recently and the two I looked at also had them.

I remember reading an article, by Peter Heaton maybe in YM, many years back about a transatlantic delivery eastbound of a Nich 38. They took off the hard wheelhouse top and stowed it on the coachroof, then they fabricated a wooden chute to pretty well cover the cockpit so that any wave breaking over would get most of it diverted overboard. It was a winter delivery and they didn't fancy it with just the canvas sided wheelhouse. I would imagine later owners would have fitted them, which is why I asked.

 

[Nostrodamus]

This thread is now beginning to drift further than a Catamaran without an engine and rudder (and I am sure someone will have a go about that).
There have been some very valid points made amongst other posts in this tread but it was never intended to be an old against new argument. The old or new was just a point for comparison.
My point was supposed to be about the designs of modern boats and are they being compromised in sailing abilities and safety to satisfy a market and sell more.
I would have liked to hear from anyone who knows what the best shape for a boat hull is for sailing abilities or safety and how far or close a modern boat is to this. Is a lighter hull a cost cutting exercise or have modern techniques made it possible for less material to produce more strength.
Have rigs changed to make boats better at sailing or for cost.
I do look at modern boats and wonder if two ships wheels and sets of controls just look good to buyers or to they have a practical benefit. I would have thought that one wheel down the centre line of the boat in a cockpit is safer.
Modern boats do have wider and bigger cockpits that look good for entertaining with the large tables they often come with but is crew safety compromised when the boat is healed and can you wedge yourself in and get to the lines. Does the broad width and open style saloons enable you to move safely below without being thrown all over?
I do think that modern boat interiors do look good and being with my own wife at various boat shows I know that they are pleasing to her eye. But that is the point. Boat manufacturers are in the business to make a profit and usually this means selling as many boats as possible.
In order to do this are the designers given a brief to design a boat including various points that they are not happy with and does building a boat to a cost compromise it in any way.
Well the above was my original intention for the thread and it certainly got plenty of views.
Now is probably a good time to let it end but I have to say that I have enjoyed reading the replies.
In the end whatever boat you have you chose because you have looked long and hard first and decided it is the right boat for you.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Think Personnel Competency and Not Yacht Design For Seaworthiness

..... My point was supposed to be about the designs of modern boats and are they being compromised in sailing abilities and safety to satisfy a market and sell more...

In general no they are not being compromised. Many modern styles sail fast and efficiently and can handle what is thrown at them (except punching ice perhaps). Safety is nearly always down to the skipper's abilities and the preparation of the boat and its equipment e.g. only having a roller reefing foresail may be in issue if trying to get sea room for a lee shore.

... the best shape for a boat hull is for sailing abilities or safety and how far or close a modern boat is to this.....

Modern hull shapes for offshore racing and RTW races plane and displace. A modern hull shape does not slam upwind if the boat is sailed and steered over waves. Deep displacement hulls slam - I have slammed my Rival 41C in particularly steep waves as she dropped off. As loud and juddering as a modern fin keel. In fact as my Rival punches through big waves there is deceleration which the rig has to manage. Lighter more buoyant hulls dont suffer this as much. On both full and fin keel hulls I have been swept off the foredeck in with green water.

...Is a lighter hull a cost cutting exercise or have modern techniques made it possible for less material to produce more strength....

Yes its a cost cutting exercise and yes they are stronger or just as strong. Perhaps my Rival rammed into a rock would fair a bit better than a fin keel rammed into a rock, however my Rival has more momentum and the fin keel less momentum, so both may be equal when it comes to absorbing loads. There will be exceptions of course and the brass sea cocks is an obvious one.

.... I do look at modern boats and wonder if two ships wheels and sets of controls just look good to buyers or to they have a practical benefit. I would have thought that one wheel down the centre line of the boat in a cockpit is safer.
Modern boats do have wider and bigger cockpits that look good for entertaining with the large tables they often come with but is crew safety compromised when the boat is healed and can you wedge yourself in and get to the lines. Does the broad width and open style saloons enable you to move safely below without being thrown all over? ....

Helming from high or low side can actually assist the helms person to work the boat over waves and see better in close quarters situations while maintaining full control of the rudder. Single helm positions can be compromised on this point. I find 2 wheels a joy to use because of the limitations of a fixed centre line wheel or tiller. The modern, wide cockpit has presented restraining challenges to me and my crews, however I have witnessed plenty of folks falling across a narrow cockpit as well. Again this is more an issue of ones sea legs than design. The same with saloons. Look its easy - crews should use their eyes to place their feet and hands to be secure, its not hard.

..... I do think that modern boat interiors do look good and being with my own wife at various boat shows I know that they are pleasing to her eye. But that is the point. Boat manufacturers are in the business to make a profit and usually this means selling as many boats as possible.
In order to do this are the designers given a brief to design a boat including various points that they are not happy with and does building a boat to a cost compromise it in any way...

Of course they design to a brief, but the designs are not compromised as they are built to the brief! You can buy new yachts that have high volume and wide or low volume and narrow, its all available. The functionality of space for living in versus secure space when at sea is entirely up to how the individuals manage their interaction with the space. Stability is well understood and classified now, although there is opinion on the effectiveness of the classification.

..... In the end whatever boat you have you chose because you have looked long and hard first and decided it is the right boat for you.

Skippers need to understand how to handle their boat correctly and many can get away with less than best practice (whatever that is) for the style of sailing they do. However, the skippers abilities and the boats preparedness are tested severely when the skipper finds the yacht in inclement weather or tricky situations where the skipper and boat may not come up to the mark. However, this is less to do with hull and rigging style, more to do with competency. Sailing for 10'000s of miles in a straight line does not make one competent.

So think personal competency (which includes vessel preparation) and less on boat styles and design when judging if the vessel is seaworthy.

 

[zarathustra]

Aren't they still making boats like in the old days, such as the Scandanavian offerings that are more seaworthy perhaps and more suited to cruising, these boats come at a higher price to the JennBenBav boats and presumably would have little to no advantage to sailors who only do "light" sailing or want a faster boat, who don't plan on being out in heavy weather anyway. And a couple of these quality boatbuilders have recently gone out of business I am lead to believe.
There is room for different boats for those with different tastes.

 

[maby]

Aren't they still making boats like in the old days, such as the Scandanavian offerings that are more seaworthy perhaps and more suited to cruising, these boats come at a higher price to the JennBenBav boats and presumably would have little to no advantage to sailors who only do "light" sailing or want a faster boat, who don't plan on being out in heavy weather anyway. And a couple of these quality boatbuilders have recently gone out of business I am lead to believe.
There is room for different boats for those with different tastes.

Indeed...

I make no secret of the fact that our boat is a floating caravan. The primary consideration is comfortable accomodation at a price which we can afford. In terms of sailing ability, it only needs to be able to coast-hop in moderate weather conditions.

We took the view that we wanted a weekend getaway by the sea. You would be hard-pressed to find even a small flat for £150k anywhere in the south-east - £80k buys us a very comfortable, brand new 33 footer and it costs around £3k per annum to keep her in a very nice marina with all facilities - it makes economical sense even if she never leaves the marina. The fact that she can is an added bonus - if the neighbours become a pain, you just sail away and look for somewhere else - try doing that with a flat!

 

[nigel1]

I agree with BOB on this one, of course modern design and build methods have brought cost down, and the boats stand up well, although not all will be comfortbale in a head sea if not steered properly.
I have a Bene 473, OK, its a tupperware boat, but its made 4 Atlantic crossings, and been through some horrendous weather in the Irish Sea, all for the loss of one side light.'
Over the years, bits have been added as needed, or bits removed/moved to make things easier and safer.
OK, the cockpit is big, but I've fitted additional clip on points, so wont fall too far, and I really like the twin wheel set up, except its a bit too far aft, and the GF likes the interior, which I dont get to see a lot off, unless something blocks, or the pumps stop.
I like old boats as well, but with a full time job, keeping a traditional boat in the way it should be kept would be too demanding. If I was liveaboard, different storey

 

[goboatingnow]

Well 237 posts

The Op question was are modern production boats up to it.

Well of course they are, sold in great numbers , do not fall apart. Sailed as much or as little as MABs. Not compromised by design more influenced by modern racers yet with interiors that SWMBO likes yet comfortable for sailors too

So the answer is Yes. Next.

Of course the real question is " modern production boats are more up to it then older boats. ??"

 

[wazza]

Nostrodamus..... We bought an older Najad 343 from '81 for almost the same as a brand new Bav36 a few years back and don't regret it for a second..
We go out sailing as much as we can. We've spent 1 night this year sleeping at our marina berth, and only 2 nights in other marina's out of roughly 50 nights out..

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Boat manufacturers are in the business to make a profit and usually this means selling as many boats as possible.

Correct and it's as true now as it was when the first boat-builder opened the first shipyard.

If anything due to the internet and our tendency to sue at the drop of at hat, it should make them more safety concious.

Read "A Voyage for Madmen" by Peter Nichols, most of the entered boats weren't fit for purpose.

I would have liked to hear from anyone who knows what the best shape for a boat hull is for sailing abilities or safety..

So would Bavaria, Halberg Rassy, Jeanneau, Malo and Arcona to name but a few ....

I do look at modern boats and wonder if two ships wheels and sets of controls just look good to buyers or to they have a practical benefit.

Think of it as the modern equivalent to a tiller extension ...

Modern boats do have wider and bigger cockpits that look good for entertaining with the large tables they often come with but is crew safety compromised when the boat is healed and can you wedge yourself in and get to the lines.

This is actually a safety feature as you are likely to fall into the boat - it being larger - rather than over the side. I don't think cockpit size can influence your sense of balance. If this wide space is a true danger then this is only to offset the high boom, which won't knock you senseless unless you like to use a pogo-stick in the cockpit, and that other banished cockpit horror, the mainsheet and traveller which used to whip your legs from under you, wrap itself round the helmsmans head or remove carelessly placed fingers.

being with my own wife at various boat shows

Do you often take other peoples wives to boat shows?

But seriously, it's called progress and as modern boats from the big builders aren't drowning people in significant numbers, I guess the answer is that they are up to it - as are the surviving MABs.