Are modern boats up to it?

I'd like to know what MAB & AWB stand for?
Seems clear to me that modern production methods & no doubt competition drive down quality to a minimum + fashion leads to boats built like over blown dinghy's bought by people that are easily influenced by modern hyped up marketing......which lets face it sells many products some that have no practical function at all like perfume & modern pop music.The result is failure in some cases where reality sets in :eek:
Now I'm going to retire to my knackered old 50 year old boat which because of the severe winters & the fact that I hav'nt had it out the water for several years is suffering from a dodgy keel bolt that hopefully won't allow so much water in this summer that my sailing will be threatened ;)
 
FullCircle said:
But you havent actually seen the boat damage you putatively refer to?
Click to expand...

Had to get the dictionary out to get to grips with 'putative' = a.reputed,supposed.

What we did get from this Gibsea 37 on the same trip, was the steering cable came appart from the hull fixing. The cable terminated in a rod which was glassed into the bilge area of the hull and it had pulled away.
We had by this time had real struggles with the boat which was very heavily reefed. It needed a fair bit of helm to stop it from broaching at times and eventually we were best sorted by motoring with a handerchief of genny rolled out.
Any boat can 'break' but should some modern yachts be advertised as 'Ocean going' when they clearly are not?
 
kristifercolumnbus said:
I'd like to know what MAB & AWB stand for?
Click to expand...
Manky Auld Boat & Average White Boat.
kristifercolumnbus said:
Seems clear to me that modern production methods & no doubt competition drive down quality to a minimum + fashion leads to boats built like over blown dinghy's bought by people that are easily influenced by modern hyped up marketing......which lets face it sells many products some that have no practical function at all like perfume & modern pop music.The result is failure in some cases where reality sets in :eek:
Now I'm going to retire to my knackered old 50 year old boat which because of the severe winters & the fact that I hav'nt had it out the water for several years is suffering from a dodgy keel bolt that hopefully won't allow so much water in this summer that my sailing will be threatened ;)
Click to expand...

Name one boat that was sold that didn't function as a boat and sunk immediately upon launch? :p Knowing the limitations of your boat (whatever it is) and staying within them is surely part of your normal practice?

Jamie
 
kristifercolumnbus said:
I'd like to know what MAB & AWB stand for?
Seems clear to me that modern production methods & no doubt competition drive down quality to a minimum + fashion leads to boats built like over blown dinghy's bought by people that are easily influenced by modern hyped up marketing......which lets face it sells many products some that have no practical function at all like perfume & modern pop music.The result is failure in some cases where reality sets in :eek:
Click to expand...

As I already posted:

"Surely if long keel and overhangs were the only way to build a boat, would the largest builders of boats in Europe and the U.S. not be doing so? Are these builders all wrong? Would we not be seeing AWB's falling to pieces all over the world?"

Fact, we dont see modern boats falling apart

"....whilst the AWB manufactures sell 100's of each size per year, and dont tell me the charter companies buy them all, cos they dont. If the AWB's were so fragile then they would not sell, again, you cant tell me that all the buyers of AWB's are ignorant of what they are buying."

So are you suggesting that anyone who buys a modern boat does not know what they are doing?
 
If you want to read prejudiced tosh

This is the place to do it!

Amazing too all these folk that must have a boat capable of taking them through a winter storm in the Southern Ocean, then say they would never leave port to go upwind in more than a F4, or downwind in F6. But hey they sure can pontificate about how everyone else's boat will fall apart whilst theirs will be serene and comfortable - if they were in fact ever to decide to go out.

Then all those that don't go to windward in more than a F4, when they do untie the lines and go out in a F2/3 find they motor everywhere because the old girl needs a bit of a blow to get going. Makes for a very limited band of windspeeds to go sailing in, F3 too little, F4 too much, but still the armchair is comfy enough.

Think Shrimpy, RTW in a Caprice. What does that tell us?

Read Adlard Coles Heavy Weather Sailing and see what used to break on the heavies back then in bad weather.

Anyone claiming the French never go anywhere? Or do they only do their serious sailing in old Brit boats?

Tosh, lots of tosh everywhere.
 
A question to the 'old is best' brigade: which era made the best boats?

Are 40s boats better than 70s boats, or did the wit of Man peak in the year your particular tub came off the assembly line?
 
Robin said:
This is the place to do it!

Amazing too all these folk that must have a boat capable of taking them through a winter storm in the Southern Ocean, then say they would never leave port to go upwind in more than a F4, or downwind in F6. But hey they sure can pontificate about how everyone else's boat will fall apart whilst theirs will be serene and comfortable - if they were in fact ever to decide to go out.

Then all those that don't go to windward in more than a F4, when they do untie the lines and go out in a F2/3 find they motor everywhere because the old girl needs a bit of a blow to get going. Makes for a very limited band of windspeeds to go sailing in, F3 too little, F4 too much, but still the armchair is comfy enough.

Think Shrimpy, RTW in a Caprice. What does that tell us?

Read Adlard Coles Heavy Weather Sailing and see what used to break on the heavies back then in bad weather.

Anyone claiming the French never go anywhere? Or do they only do their serious sailing in old Brit boats?

Tosh, lots of tosh everywhere.
Click to expand...


Yep, and would you believe in 2007 there was a very windy fastnet race, and hundreds of "lightly built" race boats beat into 40+ knots all along the South coast.

If YBW was your source of information you'd have to assume that most of them sank. In fact, there were a couple of dismastings, and a few sails rip - but most of the boats that called it a day were because of crew too seasick to continue, not boats falling apart...

And, ye Gods.... What's this news from Australia? A Beneteau - sistership to the new Sunsail fleet - wins the Syney Hobart? And a rough one at that? Surely this is wrong - surely they mean it sank!

As I've said before - be honest about what you will use your boat for, and then choose your boat for your needs. The constant slamming of modern boats by those who chose differently is interesting, and faintly amusing, but I have to ask - what business is it of yours what other people choose to sail?
 
Flaming, So no AWB broke up? How did the condition in the 2007 Fastnet compare to the ill fated 1979 race?

I ask because, it was boats from the era that is worshiped by some that broke up and lives were lost in that tragic race.
 
galadriel said:
Flaming, So no AWB broke up? How did the condition in the 2007 Fastnet compare to the ill fated 1979 race?

I ask because, it was boats from the era that is worshiped by some that broke up and lives were lost in that tragic race.
Click to expand...

Well, I wasn't in the race in 2007 (despite a last minute offer...), and wasn't born in 1979....

45-50 knots were widely reported in 2007. Everyone I know that was in the race described it as some variation of "no fun".
 
galadriel said:
Flaming, So no AWB broke up? How did the condition in the 2007 Fastnet compare to the ill fated 1979 race?

I ask because, it was boats from the era that is worshiped by some that broke up and lives were lost in that tragic race.
Click to expand...

Ok, I didn't want to join in on this thread.

AWB's are up to it and it has been proven many times.

But, there have been occasional incidences where they have not been so lets not get too carried away in the other direction.

Friends of mine rescued the owners of the ******* 42 who's rudder came off on their Atlantic crossing. Some say this was due to the stock being made of fibreglass and not up to it, or poorly made. There was the******** that rolled in the needles channel with loss of life. Did that model then have their CE category changed on the back of that?

I have deliberately not put the manufactures names above.

Generally AWB's are up to it, but as conditions become more extreme of course a heavy build or different design will generally fair better/ or be less exhausting.

I would happily cross the Atlantic on a trade winds crossing on virtually any of today's AWB's. But you would be more comfortable in a heavier boat. However the AWB will be more affordable and probably have other plus points.

Generally.
 
jonic said:
Ok, I didn't want to join in on this thread.

AWB's are up to it and it has been proven many times.

But, there have been occasional incidences where they have not been so lets not get too carried away in the other direction.

Friends of mine rescued the owners of the ******* 42 who's rudder came off on their Atlantic crossing. Some say this was due to the stock being made of fibreglass and not up to it, or poorly made. There was the******** that rolled in the needles channel with loss of life. Did that model then have their CE category changed on the back of that?

I have deliberately not put the manufactures names above.

Generally AWB's are up to it, but as conditions become more extreme of course a heavy build or different design will generally fair better/ or be less exhausting.

I would happily cross the Atlantic on a trade winds crossing on virtually any of today's AWB's. But you would be more comfortable in a heavier boat. However the AWB will be more affordable and probably have other plus points.

Generally.
Click to expand...

Sensible post. I certainly wouldn't argue with you that the Category system is broken.

And I certainly wouldn't ever claim that the current crop of boat builders were immune from the same sort of QC issues as their predecessors...

But the constant barrage of "AWBs are unfit for purpose in heavy winds" just needed some cold hard facts thrown on it.
 
Scotty_Tradewind said:
<snip>
I can only say as I find.... Just got back from my first ever weekend sail in my Tradewind.
Of course the weather was very kind in giving us F3-4 Sat to get used to her and set her up and F6-7 today....perfect, just what Tradewinds are designed for and with her cutter rig well reefed we were cruising through the big stuff at a steady 6 knots and peaking at 7.5.
We were overtaking the awbs, like the large 'bendy toys', who were really struggling to still sail in the chop and looking around we saw very few yachts making a real 'sail of it'.
Oh on the way out we did see another Tradewind coming in from what looked a long sail by the smiles on their faces. ;)
Click to expand...

We were coming back from Bembridge on Sunday - nice downwind run - 1/3rd genoa and a bit of engine to keep us going - although we could've done it without the engine I had other priorities ...
I enjoyed the sail - although the crew weren't quite so happy ... one through tiredness I think (knackering few days!) ... a more relaxed sail would've been well received !!

However - it reminded me of the same trip about 8 years ago when we did it in a (MAB) boat just over 1/2 the size - just 2 on board though ... and I enjoyed it just as much ..
Out of the two boats I much prefer our larger AWB - as it is far more comfortable (it's huge in comparison) but I do miss the simplicity of the older boat and also that when I ran aground I could hop over the side and push off!!
 
jonic said:
Ok, I didn't want to join in on this thread.

AWB's are up to it and it has been proven many times.

But, there have been occasional incidences where they have not been so lets not get too carried away in the other direction.

Friends of mine rescued the owners of the ******* 42 who's rudder came off on their Atlantic crossing. Some say this was due to the stock being made of fibreglass and not up to it, or poorly made. There was the******** that rolled in the needles channel with loss of life. Did that model then have their CE category changed on the back of that?I have deliberately not put the manufactures names above.

Generally AWB's are up to it, but as conditions become more extreme of course a heavy build or different design will generally fair better/ or be less exhausting.

I would happily cross the Atlantic on a trade winds crossing on virtually any of today's AWB's. But you would be more comfortable in a heavier boat. However the AWB will be more affordable and probably have other plus points.

Generally.
Click to expand...

Regarding the boat that rolled in the Needles, the CE Category had nothing whatsoever to do with it. CE Categories are pretty worthless anyway but the cause of a roll there is WAVES, big breaking ones and these will roll any boat that strays into the wrong patch of water there, especially in the shallow bits over the Shingles Bank. Some people believe a really high ballast ratio prevents rolling over when it doesn't, simply because it is not wind pressure that causes a boat to roll it is tons of breaking water.
 
Robin said:
Regarding the boat that rolled in the Needles, the CE Category had nothing whatsoever to do with it. CE Categories are pretty worthless anyway but the cause of a roll there is WAVES, big breaking ones and these will roll any boat that strays into the wrong patch of water there, especially in the shallow bits over the Shingles Bank. Some people believe a really high ballast ratio prevents rolling over when it doesn't, simply because it is not wind pressure that causes a boat to roll it is tons of breaking water.
Click to expand...

Well said. A re-reading of Miles Smeeton's adventures in an old fashioned heavy boat which pitchpoled twice in the Southern Pacific would put things into persective.

The thing to remember is that the operating envelop of yachts is potentially huge, and the number of people who ever get near the edges of the BOAT'S capability is tiny. If it wasn't we would get a constant stream of disasters - and we don't.

The issue about the differences in designs and types is how they behave in the narrow range of conditions we operate in. If we spend most of our time in coastal waters, or swanning around the Med then just about any boat will cope with that safely. The further you go towards the outer part of the capability envelop the more you might consider the virtues of a particular type. So if you are sailing in high latitudes in heavy weather a long way from port you would value the characteristics of heavier boats - if only from the point of view of comfort.

However, it seems perverse to me to buy a boat with those characteristics if your operating envelop does not require it. The penalty of space, handling and speed seem to me a poor trade off for just knowing that your boat will be better in the Southern Oceans (which you will only ever read about!).
 
>Where is the evidence for this structural damage?

A Jenneau (charter boat) was being deliverd by two ladies fron the BVI to Antigua upwind. The ladies were circumnavigors and left in a full gale in order to meet the delivery deadline. The boat had been slamming for thirty six hours and then water started to pour in. It sank so fast that they didn't have time to get the liferaft out of the locker and got in their dinghy at night. They had passed through the cut between Statia and Kitts, fortunately the dinghy drifted back on to the reefs on south Statia. If it had not done that the next stop would be Central America, they were very lucky.

So yes slamming can cause structural damage and the Jenneau of that peirod (early nineties) was more strongly built than most AWBs now.
 
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