Are modern boats up to it?

[Alfie168]

I can't stand the controversy any longer. I've decided the only answer is to have one of each. Keep the Gin on the AWB, the CD of Sea Shanties on the MAB and the mistress on the MOBO (oops thats torn it)

Tim

 

[Tranona]

Your words "proper boats", were the only ones available in the 60's or 70's. But like all product designs, production and materials develop, so do the markets. Today sailing appeals to a much wider audience, it has become more of a family pastime. Mrs boat owner would not be impressed with a cramped cabin, pipe cots, and a meths stove. Much in the same way, years ago camping consisted of a proofed cotton canvas tent, separate ground sheet that would let in water and all sorts of wildlife. Today modern trailer tents are a world away from the old designs.

As for the large number of newer boats that dont move, whilst I dont doubt the OP observation, you can go to some marinas where the older boats are ones that dont move, as they gradually decay, the appeal of a boat that needs a F6 to make any decent headway having become unpopular.

Salutary to read Maurice Griffiths and Harrison Butler from the 1930's to set the scene for what yachting was perceived to be about. A very spartan, male dominated pastime and female participation was rare in any form. Design was also set against a background of austere living at most levels so the small boats that a "middle class" person could afford followed the same theme.

This changed only a little immediately after the war, although technologies moved on and the consumer boom of the later 50's transformed the market and changed the type of products on offer. One thing that is often ignored is the massive impact of increased demand in other countries, particularly France which did not have the same design background and started making boats to suit their market. The UK market is now small compared with the overall market so it is not economic to build the style of boats that a minority might prefer. There are attempts to recreate these older styles, see the new Mystery for example but they will only ever be a niche because of their limited space etc and inevitable high price.

 

[E39mad]

You can't lump all new boats together. Some new boats are fantastic sea boats and an absolute joy to sail. Others however are abominations that are only really meant for motorsailing in very fair weather.

Each boat has been built for a market, these markets do vary and so then does the quality of the design and build.

Well said!

Most of the mass produced boats Beneteau, Jeanneau, Bavaria are built for the charter markets mainly for the Med & Caribbean and price has to be extremely keen. Some designs are peaches and others are dogs!

Some builders are more interested in quality and reputation and build in smaller numbers such as Northshore, Rustler etc. These may cost 50% more than the same size mass produced boats ... some people cannot see the difference and some do!

 

[snowleopard]

There were a fair few abominations produced in the 70s and 80s as 'cruiser/racers' based on the dreadful unseaworthy racing designs built to get optimum ratings. One of the worst atrocities was a racer that had a steel deck added because the reduction in stability improved its rating.

 

[alant]

Salesmans dream! (Not sailsman)

Having lived aboard for a while in a Marina it is noticeable that only about 10% of the boats actually go out sailing. The rest get visitors at the weekends that immediately get the drinks out and just sit there before going home.
Modern boats are spacious, have two heads, the biggest owners cabin they can fit in and the interior looks good in brochure glossy pictures but have designers and builders of boats compromised themselves to sell more units.
At one time boats were built to the designer’s specification and then a price was decided upon. Now it seems that a price is decided upon and a boat is built to those specifications. A boat used to be over engineered but now only the minimum spec parts are added.
Have boat builders sacrificed the ability of a boat to sail well in favour of just selling more.
As usual I may be too far behind the times and the plastic this and that on modern boats are as good as or better than the old ones made out of traditional materials.
Would you buy a new production boat or use the same money to buy an older boat?
I may be totally wrong and stand to be corrected but I would like to hear the views of others.

Modern AWB's, are built to a design & standard, that allows the salesman at LBS, to take your wife down into the saloon & ask that closing question - " Could you see yourself entertaining any friends or family in here".

SWMBO, then looks around the faux cherry wood clad saloon, which is much more chique than home & dreams of the brownie points she can score.

After that, all you have to do is sign the cheque, which is what you were wanting your boss to allow you to do anyway!

Job done!

Whats it got to do with sailing FFS!

Join the real World!

 

[Tranona]

There were a fair few abominations produced in the 70s and 80s as 'cruiser/racers' based on the dreadful unseaworthy racing designs built to get optimum ratings. One of the worst atrocities was a racer that had a steel deck added because the reduction in stability improved its rating.

Wash your mouth out! - you are right. One of the reasons the RCD focuses on stability as a criterion is the poor stability of many IOR influenced desgins which might have had high ballast ratios but poor stability until you put six lots of flesh and bones on the weather rail.

 

[truscott]

+1 to Snowleopard!

There are abominations and beauties from every era of sail. Blanket statements that don't acknowledge that, only show the prejudices of the individual making the statement. I have a beautiful little yacht from the 70's (a Limbo 6.6) and regularly sail with a mate who has one that I'm not so keen on (a Trapper 300). In a blow, the Limbo is off on a surf, and the Trapper goes into her death roll. Upwind it's all bash and crash for me, and the Trapper cuts through the lumps like a hot knife through butter. Horses and Courses I guess. I also have an AWB which sails beautifully on all points, and certainly doesn't cause me any undue alarm in heavy weather. But apparently as she's built in 2001 by Jeanneau, she's an abomination and therefore fit only to sit on for a drink or two in a marina.

I'd certainly not be keen on sailing her in the Southern Ocean, but truthfully I'm not that keen on sailing ANYTHING in the Southern Ocean, and how many of the proponents for MAB's over anything else are planning on that, as opposed to dreaming of tooling around in the Med or taking the Milk Run across the pond to the Carib and beyond? There are loads and loads of Bene's, Jeanneau's and more doing that every year. AND as time marches on, they are becoming more and more affordable every year (just don't buy one to refit and put back into charter! )

http://jeanneau.tripod.com/cruising_log.htm

There's even one here, of a delivery to Cape Town (so at least one bloke who's happy to sail an AWB down that way)

http://jeanneau.tripod.com/id141.htm


PT.

 

[savageseadog]

I have a friend who had his 40ft yacht on Hull Marina for some time.
He was accosted by someone who accused him of just having a floating caravan as the boat didn't seem to go anywhere.
He'd actually done over 1500 miles that season.
When a boat is out of it's berth it maybe doesn't register that 's missing when you look around.
As a liveaboard you may keep track more easily of boat movements, but the question is............

Does it matter? If that's what they enjoy spending their loot on (staying in the marina) what difference does that make?

Quite, I've no problem with people buying and doing whatever they want in a boat whether it be a gin palace or wreck, hot shot racers or caravanners. I race but I also potter around and have a BBQ and beer as well. Bating is different things at various times to all of us, part of the attraction I would have thought.

 

[adam2b]

There's a fairly new boat called Salperton iv, it is really big and really expensive, its mast fell off in 12knts of breeze. My mast is still on so my boat is better

 

[Seajet]

I suspect the boat builders are building what there customers want to buy.

Years ago the only people who sailed were people who wanted the sailing experience. They wanted the serious weather boats.

These days there are so many more in the sport. Some still want the"proper boat", some want to race, some want to gently cruise, some want a floating caravan. Builders have just responded to the market requirement.

There fine with me. Room on the water for everyone.

There is a syndrome I call 'The Boat Show Boat'; about 3 double aft cabins ( but no cockpit lockers ) on a 25 footer judging by modern trends, a fantastic galley, all to encourage SWMBO into agreeing the purchase, but actually sails like a Tupperware lunchbox; the actual construction will probably be fine for limited offshore use, but the shape & design may not be.

As commented earlier, if that's what people want, let them enjoy it, whether they poke their noses out of the marina or not.

It could be said that 'real sailors' will go for designs which would be laughed out of a boat show on account of their 'poor' interiors, giving a poor account of themselves while berthed on an indoors carpet.

New, nowadays, these boats are / would be tremendously expensive, if looking at interiors as a guide.

Such boats would include the Contessa 32 and She 36; now where did I put my books on the 1979 Fastnet ? 'Heavy Weather Sailing' was one...

 

[Sans Bateau]

It does amuse me when it is suggested that the newer designs are aimed at charter in the Med or Caribbean. My experience in sailing in the Med (France) is of winds that whip up out of no where producing a progress stopping short steep chop. Not exactly the conditions that you might imagine.

 

[Seajet]

I suspect 'Charter in the Med' refers to lots of hatches and even more berths, and judging by some charter companies I could mention, an attitude that 'boats are disposable items', including how the operator regards any other boats around !

 

[Evadne]

Perhaps one of the reasons nobody builds boats like they did in the 60's to 80's is that being grp, most of them are still around. Secondhand prices are lower than new prices so, if you want to sell a new boat she will have to be different to a readily available, much cheaper secondhand one, or nobody will buy one.

 

[Lakesailor]

New, nowadays, these boats are / would be tremendously expensive, if looking at interiors as a guide.

Such boats would include the Contessa 32

Contessa 32






.

 

[KristiferColumbus]

I was hold up in a secure anchorage last year watching the boats go by as you do.It was a stiff breeze force 5/6/7?What I consider ideal sailing conditions & I was struck by the speed of one boat.Leveling the binoculars I soar it was a Nicholson 32 I think.......It's grace & the way it sailed through the water was very striking.No doubt in my mind what constitutes a real boat.If only I had the money to buy one........

 

[Skylark]

Please forgive me for saying so but there's some prejudicial BS in this thread.

For most of us this is our recreation and how we chose to spend our hard earned cash and even more precious spare time isn't open for debate.

 

[E39mad]

It does amuse me when it is suggested that the newer designs are aimed at charter in the Med or Caribbean. My experience in sailing in the Med (France) is of winds that whip up out of no where producing a progress stopping short steep chop. Not exactly the conditions that you might imagine.

Why does it amuse you - when it is clearly true - where else are all the majority of these mass produced charter yachts sent? I didn't state they were built for Med sailing conditions but for their charter markets - two entirely different things imho

 

[Robin]

Please forgive me for saying so but there's some prejudicial BS in this thread.

For most of us this is our recreation and how we chose to spend our hard earned cash and even more precious spare time isn't open for debate.

+10 (at least).

It always amazes me how some folk feel able to comment (or sneer) at something new they have never sailed, let alone owned whilst their knowledge even of the 'classics' they are praising is similarly missing, except what they have read in books maybe.

I once owned a lovely MG TC, and later a Mini-Cooper S and at the time I thought they were the bees knees. Then years later a friend lent me his restored Cooper S to try since I still raved on about them. What a horrible bumpy cramped ride, and so slow even compared to a bog standard Mondeo. Funny how nostalgia isn't always right.

Personally I love the Co32s, Nich 32's, She 36s, Hustler 35s, Twisters et al, but would I want to own one now? Sorry there are newer and better with more space and more pace that will sail in light winds too, not needing half a gale to turn off the donk. Are all the modern boats good? No, there are good and bad, just like there were good and bad in the past.

So much of these discussions is from pure snobbery too. 'I've got a boat with a name so therefore it must be better than yours'. Well is it really when 20 or 50 or more times as many people bought the other option instead?

 

[Bosun Higgs]

I may be totally wrong and stand to be corrected but I would like to hear the views of others.

You are!

Are modern cars with their thinner metal and lack of over engineering worse or better than the old Morris Oxford type? Are modern planes with glues together stressed aluminium bodies better or worse than the old fabric and dope biplanes?

Well the same applies to boats but you have to compare like with like. Its no good comparing a 1970s Swan with a 2010 Bav. You need to compare the Bav to ( say) a Bendytoy of the 70s since they both are mass produced bargain basement types of boat. Compare your 70s Swan to a modern Swan or a Malo or an Oyster.

Nor for that matter is it fair to compare a modern 8 person boat with an old 4 person one even if they are the same loa.

 

[tidclacy]

Come on everybody. Surely its horses for courses. I have a Jeanneau but would not think about taking it out in what a Rival could cope with. Thank goodness the designers have followed the market and more people are enjoying our wonderful pastime.