AngusMcDoon
Well-Known Member
I never race, only cruise. I used to have laminate sails but no more. Moulded all round now. These are the next step up.
Are Laminate Sails worth it for cruisers
- Thread starter Snowgoose-1
- Start date
I never race, only cruise. I used to have laminate sails but no more. Moulded all round now. These are the next step up.
Bobc
Well-Known Member
Moulded out of peat and sheep's wool I assume?
Aja
Well-Known Member
OK. I'll have to chip in here. I have a Moody 346 with laminate Genoa and laminate fully battened main. I will easily sail to windward higher and faster than (say - this is just an example) a Bavaria 34 or Westerly with Elvstrom Dacron sails. There is no comparison and for me, is purely down to enjoying my day out no matter where we're going.
And. When the wind gets up my (white) laminates only get better.
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
There we have it, a man after my own heart. Unless you sail a bloody viking longship (clearly mine is a wideship) you sail better with laminates.
michael_w
Well-Known Member
Bit late to this thread but here's my 2p worth. What is really worth the money for cruising boats is Radial Hydranet. It's a woven dacron/spectra mix. Oyster Yachts reckon its good for 50,000 miles or a circumnavigation. Minimal stretch, lasts well, isn't like flaking cardboard, what's not to like? It's pretty expensive.
doug748
Well-Known Member
Indeed. I did a short sail on one of the few beautiful mornings in later summer this year. Moving downwind at 2 to 3 knots, in sunshine, with the tide about to move in my direction was just the job.
Few other boats were sailing, at one point I had 15 nearby and only one was making an effort, a Rival going upwind. Pound to a pinch of tobacco, at least some of those people motoring would bore you with how fast their boats are. Uncharitable perhaps but these boats were only going between Dartmouth and Salcombe, why torture yourself with motoring at 10 of a summers morning?
It really would not matter if these yachts were equipped with laminate sails or used the stackpack for storing soft furnishings.
.
Bobc
Well-Known Member
The OP wasn't whether you sail better or not. I don't think that's in question.
The question was, are they worth the extra money on a cruising boat, and from the comments, it seems that those who have decided to spend the extra think they are worth it, and those who have decided not to, do not think they are. Why does this remotely surprise me?
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
And nobody is convinced by either argument. What is apparent though is that people who haven’t tried them are convinced they aren’t worth it and people who have tried them are convinced they are. Which is slightly diffetent to saying those who won’t pay the extra are convinced it’s not worth it. Methinks they’re convincing themselves as theykre unwilling (or unable of course) to pay the extra. A fair few of us have put the case that itks a false economy. Your dacron sails might just hang together longer, but they’ll be utterly useless for any actual saing for a large part of that time. Laminates might fall to bits in slightly less time, but are usable and useful up to that point. In my own case i have back to back comparisons.
johnalison
Well-Known Member
It is a natural human trait to want to justify one’s decisions, and we need to take this into account when judging what people write or say. It is very hard to admit that a purchase was ill-considered, and so we all are prone to enthusing about our boats, cars, wives and sails. As a fellow laminarian I am in the camp that agrees with your assessment, though my main is a triradial Hydranet which was a bit cheaper but is doing a good job. I don’t know how a Hydranet jib would compare. Somewhere between Dacron and laminate I would imagine, in performance, but perhaps a good choice for someone doing long distances.
RunAgroundHard
Well-Known Member
None of that what you are claiming is a realistic analysis. I think most people who are technically aware will know that a laminate sail (and Dyneema sheets and halyards) will perform better than other materials, exactly the same as they know that GPS is better than three point fix. Most dacron sails, even when well worn, will drive the vessel forward in many conditions, they don't just stop working and become "utterly useless".
The concept that something is good enough and at a price point that an individual is prepared to be burdened by, does not mean that they are delusional about the benefits and lifecycle costs of superior technologies.
My own experience: I replaced my old dacron sails with Vectron sail cloth because with a boat show discount that was within my budget. I have sailed with laminates, mostly racing. I have trashed on the race course, faster boats with laminates, using dacron sails because they could not sail a toy boat in a bath. I think the cost benefit analysis was lost on them.
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Slowtack
Well-Known Member
I used laminates in my racing days... I replaced the laminate headsail on my current boat with one made of hydranet... .. Spectra reinforced dacron... Some years ago... Found it tough and durable with good shape holding.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
I do not race. However, my furler was, until this year one with a fixed length forestay. I have had my mast down 5 times ( expensive & time consuming) to fit a new stay. Thus, gradually raking the mast further forward at the top. Most Hanse boats have a fair degree of aft rake. Mine is now upright. I even renewed the rigging at 8 years to change the way the mast behaved ( It is 11/12 fractional) I had taken some of the curve out of the luff & had the ST cut to suit
I spent ages playing with the tension & matching mast bend to the sails. I changed the backstay to 32:1 & changed the halyards to dynema. Vang to dynema with a greater purchase.
So I did not just buy better sails each time. I have now had another set of rigging (at 19 years) & invested in an adjustable forestay.
I have a loos gauge & have spent a lot of time setting the rig.
In my mind it is not just the sails but the whole set up. It has made the helm lighter & my Aries now takes it upwind, as if on rails, at a consistent speed. I am not a good enough helm, but my son will stick it on 6.5kts up wind & it will stay there. I can point higher than most. Not bad for a 31ft cruising boat with so much gear that it sits 2 inches lower than it might, if in race trim, on its waterline. I also have Coppercoat which has a negative effect on the boat due to slime build up very soon after launching. Some of my passages have been fairly fast, but I would not quote them here, as I tend to be fairly good at picking the tides to my benefit.
I would say that I plan to better 6kts if I can for most trips over 50 miles. That is down to sails, rig & passage planning & the urge to get a move on.
I spent ages playing with the tension & matching mast bend to the sails. I changed the backstay to 32:1 & changed the halyards to dynema. Vang to dynema with a greater purchase.
So I did not just buy better sails each time. I have now had another set of rigging (at 19 years) & invested in an adjustable forestay.
I have a loos gauge & have spent a lot of time setting the rig.
In my mind it is not just the sails but the whole set up. It has made the helm lighter & my Aries now takes it upwind, as if on rails, at a consistent speed. I am not a good enough helm, but my son will stick it on 6.5kts up wind & it will stay there. I can point higher than most. Not bad for a 31ft cruising boat with so much gear that it sits 2 inches lower than it might, if in race trim, on its waterline. I also have Coppercoat which has a negative effect on the boat due to slime build up very soon after launching. Some of my passages have been fairly fast, but I would not quote them here, as I tend to be fairly good at picking the tides to my benefit.
I would say that I plan to better 6kts if I can for most trips over 50 miles. That is down to sails, rig & passage planning & the urge to get a move on.
AngusMcDoon
Well-Known Member
The amount my moulded sails cost they definitely weren't worth it. Would I buy them again? I expect so. Not all toys have to be worth the money.
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Bobc
Well-Known Member
I've sailed and owned countless boats with laminate sails over the years, from taffeta laminates on my First 345 right up to 3Di on the 18ft Skiff. Probably in excess of 50 boats in all.
My views aren't based from lack of knowledge and experience of laminates, quite the opposite.
After 15 years and a transat, my Quantum dacron genoa still sets and pulls pretty well. It's just starting to fall apart now because of UV damage.
johnalison
Well-Known Member
Possibly, but it can be easy to fail to notice a slow deterioration, with sails and many other things. Over the years a Dacron set may become significantly baggy, but still work, more or less, and if the sailor doesn’t have an efficient speed log he may not notice the change. Only when new sails are forced on him will he realise what he has been missing. If you want satisfying sailing, then good sails and a good going over by Daydream believer is the way to go, with a clean bottom and folding prop of course.
fredrussell
Well-Known Member
That’s a ridiculous statement. My 30 year old boat was still sporting the original Dacron main when I bought her. Sail was very tired, baggy etc but still moving the boat along well, albeit with more weather helm than one would want. With a nice F5 boat would do 6.5 knots or so. With new Dacron sail boat does 7 and a bit knots in same breeze. With laminate would do, what, 7.5? Plenty enough lines on most boats to flatten an old main if need be.
Bobc
Well-Known Member
Also, modern dacron cloths are streets ahead of those from 30 years ago. They are much tighter weave with better resins. I had a new jib made for the Hunter F1 earlier this year, and it's so stiff, a lot of the guys in the fleet thought it was a laminate.
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
How was your pointing, Fred? You probably lost 10 degrees and half your VMG. Of course if you only ever motor to windward…
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
It is stiff because it is full of resin. Wait until it starts to crack
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fredrussell
Well-Known Member
Pointing ok once sail was flattened. Being an older sail it had flattening reef so with that ‘on’ and backstay on hard a lot of the belly disappeared. Far from ideal, but far from “utterly useless” too. Obviously my new sail is better in every respect, no disputing that.