Are Laminate Sails worth it for cruisers

[Snowgoose-1]

I keep seeing those posh laminate sails on these forums . Is the improvement for cruisers as good as say a folding prop ?

I think they look nice too but are there problems I.e. poor for furling , longevity etc. Could I say go an extra 10nm each way on a there and back tide sail for a weekend ?

 

[Sticky Fingers]

My last yacht which was an AWB cruiser (Vision 42) I specified cruising laminate sails. Quite a costly option. Whilst I only had the one suit so no easy comparisons, I do think they set really well, especially given the fact that we had in mast furling so a compromised roach. Full length vertical battens helped.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I keep seeing those posh laminate sails on these forums . Is the improvement for cruisers as good as say a folding prop ?

I think they look nice too but are there problems I.e. poor for furling , longevity etc.

I think overall longevity might be less, but usable longevity for those that like their sails to be, well, sail shaped. The more performance your boat has, the greater the benefit, or of course if you also race. Furling is fine, likewise stack packs. Our main was made in 2011, it's still very good. Just had a new jib. You’ll feel a difference for sure. How much does it matter to you?

 

[Daydream believer]

Boat is now 18 years old
My Fibrecon main from Hyde has lasted longer than my last 2 Dacron mains (one, a marblehead racing , also from Hyde) but we had Covid in between. I had intended to change in 2024, but as my health is declining I may now not bother. It is a lot better than the others
The cruising laminate self tacking jib from Ultimate sails was eye watering expensive, but miles more powerful than the other 3 dacron ones (once again one was a top quality Hyde one) It still has an excellent shape. But I never sail with it part furled. I was thinking of getting a new one next year as it looks dirty, but for the same reason as above I may not.
My Goacher made Dacron Genoa is still Ok but hardly used as I find the STs more than adequate unless racing. If I was buying new, I would definitely go the laminate route. The sails are so much better in higher winds & give good drive in light airs
I have a feathering prop as well.

 

[Tranona]

I keep seeing those posh laminate sails on these forums . Is the improvement for cruisers as good as say a folding prop ?

I think they look nice too but are there problems I.e. poor for furling , longevity etc. Could I say go an extra 10nm each way on a there and back tide sail for a weekend ?

The big difference between changes in performance between sails and folding/feathering propellers is that the latter occurs with no more effort than fitting it. The improvement comes from reduction in drag and while it might be difficult to quantify exactly it is there whatever you do with sails.

While the properties of different types of sails (design, cut, fabric) is theoretically there translating it into higher speeds through the water is dependent on how you use the potential.

Passage times are a good measure and the propeller will give you anything up to a 10% improvement, so an hour reduction in a typical cross channel from the Solent, or 12-15 extra miles on a noon to noon ocean passage.

More difficult to measure value for money. Better to spend £2k on a prop or on a new sail (not that you will get a new laminate for that)? Hands down the prop wins.

On my last boat I replaced the Dacron furling main with Vectran at about 60% premium over Dacron. Qualitatively the change was very positive - better pointing, less leeway, but difficult to judge improvements in passage times. The sail cost over twice as much as the Flexofold prop which in my view gave more improvement in passage times than any extra amount spent on sails, but less in terms of sailing pleasure.

 

[dunedin]

I definitively think the better sails can improve performance markedly upwind, pointing higher and going faster.
One often overlooked but equally important point is that sails that don’t stretch tend to reduce the heeling forces caused by more baggy sails. Foam luff also essential.
Hence good sails make it a lot more comfortable sailing upwind, faster and with less heel - and get to the sheltered water (or the pub) an hour or so quicker than a boat with baggy old sails.
It is not unusual for us to have an upwind VMG at least twice as fast as other broadly similar boats with poor sails not set at their optimum (usually including jib / genoa not sheeted tight enough).

 

[Daydream believer]

One thing that one has to remember about the difference between prop & sails is that one does not have to do anything else with a prop other than keep it & the hull clean. No point having a fast prop & a dirty hull.
.
With sails one has to work at it. One has to set the sails & adjust as one sails. It is not a case of set the genoa halyard & leave all season. One plays with the clew outhaul as one changes the boom angle.
A traveller helps with mainsheet trim. One needs to watch leech curve
.
So often one starts cruising & sets the auto helm & trims the sails of sorts once & that is it. Not the best use of an expensive sail. In fact a good sail can be more difficult to get a good setting than a cheap dacron one at first. The shape of the jib can be difficult for a less experienced cruising sailor, but faster for a racing sailor. It depends on where the sail maker puts the fullness of the sail, or where the curve starts. Some sails go straight into the groove, others may need constant attention but faster.

 

[johnalison]

The Dacron sails that came with the boat lasted two and three years and were rubbish for half that time. The replacement laminate jib was still holding a good shape when wear made its replacement necessary after more than ten years, including three-month summer cruises. Not only that but its shape remained good when part-furled and could be sheeted flat whatever the wind. This made going to windward in a blow much more effective, maybe ten degrees. A laminate jib needs taking care of, of course, and I take care never to let it flog, but it furls neatly and I have had a lot of satisfaction from the two that I fitted.

 

[flaming]

I keep seeing those posh laminate sails on these forums . Is the improvement for cruisers as good as say a folding prop ?

I think they look nice too but are there problems I.e. poor for furling , longevity etc. Could I say go an extra 10nm each way on a there and back tide sail for a weekend ?

Laminates give the biggest benefits when you are

1. Sailing to windward
2. Actually “sailing” as distinct from having hoisted sails and vaguely pulled them in a bit until they stop making that annoying flapping sound.

If you are sailing off the wind you won’t really notice the difference.
If the idea of adjusting halyard tension in different wind strengths, or kicker tension, or Genoa car positions etc etc… is not your idea of sailing then your money is best spent elsewhere.

But… if you have a boat that sails well, and you like tweaking sails, and you enjoy getting to windward efficiently, then you’ll love them.

 

[samfieldhouse]

I chose a laminate for my 'Solent Jib' - it's small and therefore affordable, and as an upwind sail for stronger breezes I wanted something with maximum efficiency. And transparent (ish) so I can actually see where I'm going singlehanded
Thus far my only regret is what a pain in the transom it is to stow. But then stuffing any sail into a bag haphazardly can't be good I guess.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I chose a laminate for my 'Solent Jib' - it's small and therefore affordable, and as an upwind sail for stronger breezes I wanted something with maximum efficiency. And transparent (ish) so I can actually see where I'm going singlehanded
Thus far my only regret is what a pain in the transom it is to stow. But then stuffing any sail into a bag haphazardly can't be good I guess.

We roll our jib. In it’s bag, its easy to stow, being fairly stiff as a sausage .

 

[flaming]

Thus far my only regret is what a pain in the transom it is to stow. But then stuffing any sail into a bag haphazardly can't be good I guess.

Please don't do that. I weep for your poor sail!

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Please don't do that. I weep for your poor sail!

I didn’t like to say….. Bad storage as at least as much the death of a sail as hard usage or flogging.

 

[flaming]

I didn’t like to say….. Bad storage as at least as much the death of a sail as hard usage or flogging.

I felt bad enough when we bricked the race main to get it to Dartmouth this year....

 

[Bobc]

IMHO laminate sails are not worth it for a cruising boat. If you are racing or you are the type of person who always wants to squeeze the last ounce of performance out of your boat, then yes, but the average cruising boat is overweight, has a dirty bottom, a fixed prop, and other things that slow it down more than slightly stretched sails. Also, on the basis of the additional cost, I can replace my dacron sails every 5 years, for the same cost as replacing laminates every 10 years, so I just but cross-cut dacron with a reasonable quality cloth.

 

[Daydream believer]

A decent sai should come with a decent sail bag. Both my laminate sails come with sausage bags with zips that start from 1/3 from one end. The jib can be inserted in the foil with the sail stil, mostly, in the bag. Then hoisted from its flaked position in the bag up the foil. The main can be positioned in line with the boom & slid neatly along as a sausage out of the bag so that it does not flop everywhere.
I sometimes wonder if, when my sail cover is worn, the mainsail bag is good enough to be adapted to make a new sail cover. The material & zip is first class & it even has ventilation weave in part of it.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

IMHO laminate sails are not worth it for a cruising boat. If you are racing or you are the type of person who always wants to squeeze the last ounce of performance out of your boat, then yes, but the average cruising boat is overweight, has a dirty bottom, a fixed prop, and other things that slow it down more than slightly stretched sails. Also, on the basis of the additional cost, I can replace my dacron sails every 5 years, for the same cost as replacing laminates every 10 years, so I just but cross-cut dacron with a reasonable quality cloth.

Fair point. If you can’t be arsed to scrub your bottom, you deserve to spend your life in the slow lane. Though this is a bit hypocritical of me just now, we have a fair sized beard ourselves. Exceptional circumstances. Been on holiday, weather disgusting and now the owner has a new hip. I will get my wetsuit on and get rid of it as soon as she's well enough to leave for a morning.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

A decent sai should come with a decent sail bag. Both my laminate sails come with sausage bags with zips that start from 1/3 from one end. The jib can be inserted in the foil with the sail stil, mostly, in the bag. Then hoisted from its flaked position in the bag up the foil. The main can be positioned in line with the boom & slid neatly along as a sausage out of the bag so that it does not flop everywhere.
I sometimes wonder if, when my sail cover is worn, the mainsail bag is good enough to be adapted to make a new sail cover. The material & zip is first class & it even has ventilation weave in part of it.

Our sail bags are nowhere near that, but still comfortably good enough for carrying on and off the boat. Having very high aspect sails, they are not so hard to transport rolled, not as long as yours.

 

[johnalison]

I keep seeing those posh laminate sails on these forums . Is the improvement for cruisers as good as say a folding prop ?

I think they look nice too but are there problems I.e. poor for furling , longevity etc. Could I say go an extra 10nm each way on a there and back tide sail for a weekend ?

Going back to this, the answer is no, you won’t get an extra ten miles on a weekend passage, but if there is windward work in anything more than a light breeze you might arrive a good half an hour earlier or more. The difference is similar to that between a jib with and without a padded luff, with the added benefit of a consistent shape during the sail’s life.

 

[samfieldhouse]

Please don't do that. I weep for your poor sail!

No need to weep! I meant that all sails should be stowed properly and not stuffed into bag.
The pain in the bum is that it's beautifully rolled in a proper sausage bag... but with a 7ft foot that's quite a big sausage to accommodate (ooh matron...)

For quick drops I flake it into an open bag on deck.