Are flares out of date?

[yachtbits]

Regardless of Date!!

I crew for one of the RNLI's recently set up Inland lifeboat projects. I know that our crew, who work upto 25 miles inshore, would be mighty annoyed to arrive at a firework display!

flares are for emergencies ONLY!

Having said that, you might have needed our first aiders considereing the age of the flares!

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sales@yachtbits.co.uk
marine electrical/electronics specialists

 

[Miker]

Re: Jumping dfown throats to unjustified conclusions .

"The endemic pre-occupation on these forums".
Actually, I was not jumping down your throat. It was the throat of Incognito.
But my apologies if I came to any unwarranted conclusions.

 

[steve_cronin]

Re: £4%6&8(0@888

Your apology accepted. It is easy to post a reply to the wrong post. I did it once and made a lifetime enemy of His Excellency, Count Kurt von Thadden the Omnipotent (but I didn't mind that!)

Steve Cronin

 

[andy_wilson]

Regardless of Location!!

Would you honestly respond to a 999 call from someone miles from the sea saying they can positively confirm the sighing of a marine flare discharged near November the 5th.

Now if they called in on VHF (miles from the sea), would that be worth a follow up?

 

[Chris_Stannard]

I did not claim to be good at maths, and you are right 95% is one in twenty, though I believe the reality is that flares are much better than that. Its the usual routine of if the manufacturers say they have a high probablity of failure THEY CAN'T GET SUED! Many thanks for pointing out the error.

Chris Stannard

 

[Gunfleet]

It wasn't a challenge, Chris, I really thought there was some statistical trick I was missing. As it happens I carry fewer than 20 flares on the boat so either someone's got mine or my hit rate will be higher! Let's hope I never find out.
John

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: Regardless of Location!!

Well, he's in Lowestoft. The Norfolk Broads are behind him, or if he turns round in front of him.

 

[Guest]

Common sense with flares

1. Keep flares up to five or six years old regardless of printed 'expiry date'. Old ones may or may not fire; new ones may or may not fire. But have new ones as well on board. 2. Let off old hand flares in the garden (so long as it is not on the shore!). 3. Fire rocket flares (inland only) on 5th November (coming soon). 4. Flares over five/six years (those surplus to testing) should be sunk at sea in reasonably deep water. 5. Orange smoke is a waste of time; no yachtsman was ever saved by it. 6. White flares can be fired at any time at sea and do not signify distress or help needed. 7. Use commonsense and experience: smile sweetly at the regulations and bureaucrats.

 

[HMCG]

I will not preach about the ethics of setting off old flares or distress flares inapropriately I have done enough of that already on this forum. What I will say however is that in HMCG we have a system in place for misfiring flares. We keep very strict records of flare serial numbers and also never keep flares beyond the expiry date. If a misfire occurs - which is relatively rare <1% then all stations have to remove all flares of that batch from use until it is found out what went wrong. In some cases it may be user error but in some it is a manufacturing problem. If user error they are then placed back in to circulation if manufacturing they are destroyed.

In a year HM Coastguard fires a massive number of pyrotechnics ranging from smoke to para and stars.(our boats carry red para and hh flares) I would say that we would give a good indication of rate of failure.

It is noteable though that you rarely hear of manufacturers doing a recall when a batch does fail!!!!!!! Food for thought.


Remember a VHF can save your life.

 

[Guest]

HMCG ideas

It is kind of HMCG to agree not to preach about flares, but what is his definition of 'old'. 'Old' is not the same as printed expiry date on the flare. Up to six years is no problem. After that dispose.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Dumping toxic waste. maiming beach combers

>4. Flares over five/six years (those surplus to testing) should be sunk at sea in reasonably deep water.<

You might like to revisit that advice (ps flares are designed to float).

Apart from the toxic waste aspect, there's also a risk that they'll end up washed up on a beach where some inquisitive kiddy might want to play with them.

 

[Twister_Ken]

While you\'re at it, commit arson

>3. Fire rocket flares (inland only) on 5th November (coming soon).<

And para flares are designed to land still burning.

"Sorry about your house Missus, and wasn't it a shame the firemen were on strike"

 

[Guest]

Chris, I believe that your original statement about probabilty is correct. Having a 95% probability does not mean that out of every 100 flares 5 will fail. What they are saying is that every flare you fire has a 95% chance of working (which is a high rate). This rate does not alter no matter how many flares you try.
For a good number of years I sat on a BSI Standards committee and this was something that we had to state in the standard, "probability or confidence". My particular field was Hardness testing of metals (Vickers to be exact) and after a machine had been serviced and calibrated to a known BS - ISO standard we could say that any test result given had a "probability" or we were "95% confident" that the result was accurate. Which is entirely different to quoting a failure rate. As HMGC have said here failures can be down to various reasons and it would be difficult for the manufacturer to control these aspects, so they will give a "probability" rate.
I would admit that I'm no good at "statistics" (always lost me when we got to that part of the standards) but I can from my distant past remember a small bit about it, but maybe someone else here may elaborate!

 

[yachtbits]

Re: Regardless of Location!!

You must have visited the website!

Your average 35ft motor boat could easily be 20miles inland on the broads. VHF and mobile phone coverage is marginal to non-existent in some areas, so if you are on fire and you've got flares, are you going to use them?

And yes we have responded to an inland flare sighting.

I must admit though, my primary thought is for the stability of 20+year old flares.

kev

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marine electrics & electronics

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: Regardless of Location!!

I have done better. I bought something. We boring East coast sailors have to stick together.

 

[andy_wilson]

Location!!

Well the poster is in mid-Kent, and I'm in South Yorkshire so for sure I wouldn't cause a lifeboat to be launched until global warming floods the Don Valley!

Meanwhile at almost 1000ft up in the Pennines, the flares wouldn't be landing on so many house roofs either.

 

[Guest]

Disposing of unwanted flares

There are nothing quite like threads on ensigns and on flares to keep the comments coming.
Twister Ken did not read Deckmaster's message carefully. He did not suggest throwing stuff overboard: he specified sinking in reasonably deep water. Quite a different technique.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: Disposing of unwanted flares

How do you sink something which is naturally buoyant, in a way that will prevent it floating free at some point, prevent it being moved along the seabed and inshore by currents, prevent it leaching toxic chemicals into the sea?

I'm sorry but I regard the suggestion of sinking outdated flares both uneccessary (return them to the manufacturer via a local chandler, or pass them onto the local coastguard), environmentally irresponsible, and potentially dangerous.

What else would you like to sink at sea? Used engine oil? Lead/acid batteries? Old paint?

 

[Trevethan]

Re: While you\'re at it, commit arson

Last year some kids broke into a boat and pinched some flares. One let off a red para. Amazingly bright. It landed on the road still alight and burned a 3 inch deep gole into the asphalt. Having seen the damage done, I would NEVER let off a flare "just for fun".

I have never fired a flare, and must admit I'd be a bit nervous about doing it it had to be done. Do flare firing courses exists?

Regards,

Nick

 

[Twister_Ken]

Do flare firing courses exists?

Yes, usually organised by a sailing club with the co-operation of the local HMCG and/or RNLI.

I did one in Pompey last November, organised by the Cruising Association Solent section. They also 'popped' a typical yachty liferaft to let you see what happened and what was inside,