Are flares out of date?

[incognito]

Last evening, I had some young friends visiting at home, and, as Nov 5th so close, and my home is so far from the sea, I got out some old flares I discovered in a very old corner of the garage. The flares were older than my visitors. Expiry date June 1976.

Well, the first went off beautifully, with a bright red star in the night sky, hanging around for what seemed many minutes. Two orange smokes followed, and then I decided to keep the rest on the boat as backup.

Are we being ripped off? Coded boats MUST have in-date flares, but I tend to add new ones from time to time, not exactly at the date required. Other than playing - which I have done before, with outofdate but younger flares, with similar perfect results - I have not need a flare in anger.

What is supposed to deteriorate in flares? Wet flares would do noone any good, whatever the use-by date, so other than dampness, what ages flares?

Be interested in other old soak's comments.

 

[steve_cronin]

Not actually answereing your question but....

...did the flares land still alight/

I was always lead to believe that the difference between leisure pyrotechnics (Nov5 fireworks) and marine distress flares was that the former always burned out whilst still aloft whereas flares might still be alight when they landed in the sea. The implications for surrounding property therefore might be dire?

Steve Cronin

 

[incognito]

Re: Not actually answereing your question but....

Well, I was in the middle of a large field, and the only flare (as distince from smoker, which is hand held) did fizzle out on the ground - I had never thought about it, but accept your averring that they should burn out in the sea. I was more interested in how long it was supposed to be airborne, which is where I want it to be - but there is nothing on the package which says how long.

Have you let off old flares/smokes?

IF (response = 'YES') THEN
....Did you ever get a misfire?
ELSE
....How big a stock have you got on your boat?
FI

 

[steve_cronin]

Re: Not actually answereing your question but....

The "Miniflares" burn out in the air but they are also used by climbers. I have used white chute rockets at the top of Poole harbour and they did fall in to the sea stillburning so i wouldn't have liked that to have been my neighbour's lawn or his pristine hardwood deck!

On the few times that i have let off out of dates i can't remember ever having one fail but a pull-ring came off once.

Our boat is certed for charter in Greece so we carry a great big box full of the things and they get cheked each year by the port police and the HCA (Hellenic Charter Association).

Steve Cronin

 

[Miker]

Re: Not actually answereing your question but....

I thought that it was illegal to let of flares just for the hell of it.

 

[Miker]

Re: Not actually answereing your question but....

I thought that it was illegal to let off flares just for the hell of it.

 

[whisper]

Sod it!!
Having read dire warnings from on high about the safe disposal of out of date flares I've just given about 9 of them to a Bomb Disposal friend from the forces - difficult to find the appropriate Coastguard man in Leicestershire. My oppo above said he thought that the 1999 expiry ones would have been perfectly ok for a few years yet.
Wish I had had the nerve to try a couple of them out in order to get some experience.

A friend also recently passed his old flares to the Coastguard. The oldest had expired in 1991 and showed signs of considerable corrosion around and inside the cap.

It's interesting to hear that your mid 70s flares worked ok yet a relatively recent test of flares done by a boating mag. found some NEW ones that didn't.

 

[Chris_Stannard]

One or two points about flares.

First thing I understand that the manufacturer's guarantee is that the one flare has about a 95% probability of functioning. Put it another way if you had a box of forty there is likely to be one that does not work, but which one? If you have two flares the probability of them both not working falls to about .25%. They may well do better than this. So do not think that if you buy a new box of flares they will all necessarily work, some may not.

The next thing is that a number of components in a flare are a bit unstable and are prone to deterioate (I wish I could spell) over time. The manufacturer's guarantee is likely to mean that at the three year point you will still be above the 95% probability of his guarantee, but that thereafter there will be a gradual increase in the number that fail.

Last point about your very old flares is that things used to be built to much higher standards, almost fail safe. Then cost engineering analysis came in and every one is looking to save pennies where ever they can. Thus your new flares may not be nearly as goood in 20 years as the old ones are now.

I tend to turn my flare over on a six year cycle so I always have a set in date and a the most recent out of date set. This is because if I need to use them I want lots of them about.


Chris Stannard

 

[Twister_Ken]

I was told at a safety demonstration that the most likely thing to happen to an o-o-d red flare is that it burns pink, rather than red. As the RNLI/HMCG team said - "we get calls about any flare that goes off, red or white, so having a pink flare is better than having no flare at all."

THeir advice was to keep an in date set and the previous set.

 

[BrendanS]

Totally agree, told same thing at a demo, but also that flares may not burn as long, nor go so high when out of date..same advice, keep old ones. Other advice was use old ones first if the circumstances suggest you have time ie let off old ones which 'may' fail first, then new ones are in backup, and in date for future use. Okay when single handed, but may confuse things if new crew onboard when trying to give simple safety instructions, so should be kept separate with in date ones to hand

 

[Gunfleet]

Chris, help a non-engineer out. 95% looks like 1 in 20 will fail. I know you won't have just plucked the 1/40 from the air... so why is it 1 in 40?

 

[Apetts]

Beware outdated parachute flares can be very dangerous! As the flares age there is the possibility of the parachute sticking and not exiting the tube correctly. I have actually seen this happen when an old flare was fired in a marine safety demonstration at a nautical college. The parachute flare left the container, which was held vertically, and curved over flying parallel to the ground at about 8 feet. It sped over the field and across a main road passing between two vehicles almost causing a nasty accident. If you find yourself in trouble and need a flare you want to be fairly confident that it will go up and not into the boat causing more problems ( a life was lost some years ago when a crewmember on a boat in trouble fired a rocket upside down and burnt out the boat)
Outdates hand held flares are probably more safe, you can always throw them overboard.

 

[tome]

If you are the victim of as many survival and rescue courses as I've been the subject of used flares comes up like clockwork. A brand new flare may not work, so the more you have the merrier.

You describe the behaviour of a runaway flare going horizontal. This isn't an ageing problem, it's a defective flare. Out of date flares may not burn so bright (if at all) and red will fade in time.

But, best to have as many of them as poss including out of date as there's safety in numbers. Doesn't really matter which one you set off first.

 

[SilverBreeze]

At our sailing school, we have flare packs in nine day boats, two tenders, three offshore cruising yachts and eight dinghy safety RIBs. We buy a lot of flares. We buy them in France (for cost reasons, but that is another story). Most of our flares are made by “a major British manufacturer.”

We learned a long time ago that improper storage and moisture can cause problems.
We learned that moisture can cause the triggers of parachute flares to fail. We learned that storage in a bouncy box or canister can cause the plastic handles of hand flares and smokes to break off from the flare tube.
We take our flare sets to the local butcher who vacuum packs them in plastic. Which keeps them dry and safe from vibration. Then we put them in a box or canister.

Our cruising boats carry a double set: a full in-date SOLAS box and a second box full of one year out-of date flares and smokes. We think that in an emergency, you can never have enough flares. As another poster said, we “want lots of them about.”

To get rid of three year or four year out of date flares, we are fortunate that New Year’s Eve in the small county Cork village of Baltimore provides a safe and seasonal opportunity to fire off old flares down by the harbour. With the local RNLI coxswain watching, fishermen, boatmen and sailors celebrate with midnight flares.

We have learned that very out of date smoke flares work fine, but some three year old parachute flares fail because the trigger has disintegrated. Failed-to-fire flares are gathered and incinerated locally in controlled conditions.

Bob Hobby, Glenans Irish Sailing Club

 

[Cornishman]

I don't know which manufacturer you speak of, but as a one time RYA flare demonstrator who attended several training days at the Pains Wessex factory at Old Sarum, and before that at Newdigate, I recall the one thing they always told us was that they guarantee nothing. The chemicals are as stable as they can make them at the time of manufacture, but they can never be sure how long they will remain so, although testing over the years showed that 3 years under good conditions (kept in a dry place being most important) used to be about as long as they could say they would be still at their best. After that, who knows?
When we first started flare demos, and were allowed to discharge sky rocket types with permission from the local CG, Police and Fire Brigades, I once let off a very old 2 star red which deposited both stars almost at my feet, the rocket having failed completely. I know others had similar experiences, and I would not use old flares after that.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Another flare tip

from the demo I was at was to always fire flares in pairs. As soon as the first one dies or lands, send up the second. That's because the first one may have been seen but not 'believed'. Firing the second makes the observer think - yes, there is something going on I should report.

 

[Guest]

Re: Not actually answereing your question but....

It is!!!

 

[steve_cronin]

Jumping dfown throats to unjustified conclusions .

.. The endemic pre-occupation on these forums.

Did I say that I set them (it actually) for fun?

Just for your info it was in December, on a moonless night and we couldn't find the entrance to the Wareham river so a white flare was used quite properly to light up the scene and find the first witheys.

The ones where the ring-pull came off were hand helds at a rugby club fireworks night at least 150miles from the nearest coastline.

OK?

Steve Cronin

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: Jumping dfown throats to unjustified conclusions .

Another good place to let your old flares off is St Malo on Bastille day. It may be illegal but everyone else is doing it, why not you?

 

[Peppermint]

Outdated Hand Flares

I met a guy who was passionate about flares being in date. He'd run a course where a 2 year out of date handheld melted molten metal over the users hand. The manufacturer explained that if ignition isn't perfect all sorts of strange effects can take place. Including metal running down the handle or the full power of the burn being sent sideways through the casing.

If you need a flare you've got problems enough without a few burns as well.