Anyone getting crew to contribute to costs?

[roblpm]

I have had my humble boat parked in a marina for last 5 years. £3000 a year before running costs.

Participate in about 20 club races a year.

Bought a couple of sails and replaced running rigging.

The last couple of years I haven't done much cruising due to family issues. So I am thinking of selling the boat. Also due to family issues money is tighter than it was.

However there are 3 other regular crew, one of whom helms sometimes. They all enjoy(!) helping with the maintenance etc.

I have 3 choices:

Leave the boat in the marina.
Move somewhere cheaper which probably means no convenient racing.
Sell the boat

What I am wondering is if anyone gets regular crew to contribute to fixed costs. Ie ask the regular crew for a bit of cash to keep the situation as it is. They could also use the boat a bit if they are suitably qualified. I don't think there are any legal issues with this as I will in no way be making a profit.

Obviously they could just go off and sail on someone elses boat for free.

Does anyone do this?

 

[roblpm]

Ps. The 3 of them are racing tonight without me as I am crocked!!! So this isn't about me maintaining the boat for my enjoyment at other's expense!

 

[flaming]

Not an issue legally, as it's cost sharing.

Tricky one with the crew... I have sailed on boats that asked for a contribution per day, and plenty of people are quite happy with that. I've been extremely lucky that whilst I was very skint the owner I sail with for 95% of my sailing was not asking for any contributions. However since my own financial situation has eased a bit I have taken to contributing in ad-hoc ways. For example I've paid a few of the entry fees in the last couple of years, and when we go away to Dartmouth etc I book and pay for the crew house, and I don't normally bother charging the owner his share, or at least I never chase him if he doesn't suggest it. I justify doing it this way rather than asking all of the crew to split the owner's costs to myself because I get a lot out of the deal, as it's a very rare owner who doesn't want to drive his own boat. Mind you all the boat clobber is slowly finding its way into our garage...

Depending on where you are sailing it can be a law of supply and demand type thing. I don't think it was a coincidence that the boat I sailed on that asked for £10 a day was also the boat with the least consistent, and least skilled, crew I was aware of. As a crew, if you're any good then there are plenty of owners who are not asking for contributions. If you have a settled crew that are happy and committed (as evidenced by them doing maintenance!) then you might be able to have the "this isn't working for me financially at the moment..." conversation.

 

[roblpm]

Not an issue legally, as it's cost sharing.

Tricky one with the crew... I have sailed on boats that asked for a contribution per day, and plenty of people are quite happy with that. I've been extremely lucky that whilst I was very skint the owner I sail with for 95% of my sailing was not asking for any contributions. However since my own financial situation has eased a bit I have taken to contributing in ad-hoc ways. For example I've paid a few of the entry fees in the last couple of years, and when we go away to Dartmouth etc I book and pay for the crew house, and I don't normally bother charging the owner his share, or at least I never chase him if he doesn't suggest it. I justify doing it this way rather than asking all of the crew to split the owner's costs to myself because I get a lot out of the deal, as it's a very rare owner who doesn't want to drive his own boat. Mind you all the boat clobber is slowly finding its way into our garage...

Depending on where you are sailing it can be a law of supply and demand type thing. I don't think it was a coincidence that the boat I sailed on that asked for £10 a day was also the boat with the least consistent, and least skilled, crew I was aware of. As a crew, if you're any good then there are plenty of owners who are not asking for contributions. If you have a settled crew that are happy and committed (as evidenced by them doing maintenance!) then you might be able to have the "this isn't working for me financially at the moment..." conversation.

Thanks for that. Your last sentence is the one...... Tbh my boat is a fun "club" at the moment. I don't think the crew want to race with anyone else. I will do my sums and decide the options before the end of this season. I am glad you didn't say I am mad!

 

[LittleSister]

I am glad you didn't say I am mad!

On the other hand, he didn't say you weren't!

 

[roblpm]

On the other hand, he didn't say you weren't!

True. But I think towards the end of the season there will be a flowchart with some options on it!

 

[lpdsn]

It's a hard thing to manage. When you think about it you really want crew for their skills not their money, so you don't want to lose any good crew over it. Some people might be happy to contribute and some might not be able to afford it or just might not want to. Contributions also change the relationship between you and the crew - you've more commitments to them if they're forking out.

Float it very gently over a beer with those you think will be most in favour and if they aren't keen step back.

 

[roblpm]

It's a hard thing to manage. When you think about it you really want crew for their skills not their money, so you don't want to lose any good crew over it. Some people might be happy to contribute and some might not be able to afford it or just might not want to. Contributions also change the relationship between you and the crew - you've more commitments to them if they're forking out.

Float it very gently over a beer with those you think will be most in favour and if they aren't keen step back.

Well tbh honest when i bought a boat a few years ago i was surprised at the skipper / crew thing. I had always cruised before.

It seems at our place there are more sports boat teams.

My boat runs more like a team really. Just not in financial terms.

One option is to flog it and run a 2/3/4 way sportsboat share. Lots of 707s here.

 

[lpdsn]

Well tbh honest when i bought a boat a few years ago i was surprised at the skipper / crew thing. I had always cruised before.

It seems at our place there are more sports boat teams.

My boat runs more like a team really. Just not in financial terms.

One option is to flog it and run a 2/3/4 way sportsboat share. Lots of 707s here.

I'm not saying don't sound out the idea just be very diplomatic. There's all sorts of factors involved in crew turning up to race and it is hard to change the 'deal'. Don't underestimate how much commitment your crew have already made just turning up on a regular basis. When you're asking for a financial commitment on top then don't be surprised if they want a say in the running of the boat.

Boat shares can work. Where I've frequently seen them go wrong is where some co-owners aren't as committed as the crew to racing competitively yet still insist on being important.

 

[roblpm]

I'm not saying don't sound out the idea just be very diplomatic. There's all sorts of factors involved in crew turning up to race and it is hard to change the 'deal'. Don't underestimate how much commitment your crew have already made just turning up on a regular basis. When you're asking for a financial commitment on top then don't be surprised if they want a say in the running of the boat.

Boat shares can work. Where I've frequently seen them go wrong is where some co-owners aren't as committed as the crew to racing competitively yet still insist on being important.

Ok thanks for the advice.

 

[lw395]

It depends on many things, including what people can afford.
I know of smaller boats where crews are happy to pay in.
I've sailed on boats where the crew pay £10 a day or £5 towards entry fees. It's fun for a change, but not something I'd get too involved in. I crew a few wednesday night races on this basis, I suppose I'm a name on the list when the boat's not fully crewed, as I usually say no when I'm asked about weekends. It's fun at that level and the money into the boat pot is less than we spend on beer and curry afterwards.
I think a lot of it comes down to being skipper/helm/tactician. If that's one person, doing it his way, then you are more likely to get a coherent yacht at an amateur level. But that one person is pretty likely to be paying all the bills.
Sportsboats and dayboats, you are more likely to get a crew who are committed and contributing, but only if you are a much better helm than they are.
I know some such boats where the co-owners helm a series each.

 

[black hole]

I did have one crew who replaced a winch handle he lost overboard, but that apart none have ever made any sort of financial contribution. They dont even bring any doughnuts etc to share around on long legs.

Mind you I have never crewed on a boat where anyone made a contribution either. Oddly enough, crew do share costs when cruising.

 

[TLouth7]

As a crew I have felt bad about not contributing to the costs of the boat I sail on, especially if the skipper is not much older/better off than me. On the other hand the skipper gets to set up the boat exactly how they want, do the races they want, and assign crew positions. If I were contributing more I would probably like a go on the helm every once in a while...

I'd be more up for nominating a crew member to supply lunch for the boat each race (perhaps divvying up costs if the crew is not that fixed). This is more to do with the fact that I feel guilty that the skipper has to go buy food, on top of arriving earlier to sort the boat out, whereas I just breeze in at the allotted time. I realise that this does not make a massive difference to the overall cost of running a racing yacht.

 

[Chris 249]

One of my former crew bought the 40'er he used to sail on a new headsail for the Hobart. Sadly we moved away before he could do the same for our boat! He's also a very good sailor (ex national champ skipper) and I think he was basically sailing master, so as with others here it was a case of someone basically giving money in recognition of being given control. The fact that the owner's new second-hand boat had turned out to need a very expensive keel structure rebuild (don't mention the B word!) may have been a factor. Probably from his point of view he appreciated that he was getting a large amount of the fun and challenge of owning a Sydney-Hobart boat for a tiny fraction of the cost, so it was a good deal.

IMHO there would be at least six factors; the relative disposable incomes of skipper and crew; the amount of money spent on the boat; the relative skill level of skipper and crew; and the amount of control or input the crew get, which has to be related to their skill levels; the amount of time the crew spend helping out; how much the skipper really wants to race; and how much the crew really want to race.

In my experience, many crew understand that these issues mean that the amount of cash or work expected can vary from boat to boat and from crewperson to crewperson. Equally, the equation is so complicated and so individual that no one should take offence if they feel they are asked to take on too much.

Personally I reckon it's good for sailing if the crew are often expected to contribute in cash or kind or in expertise. In the USA it seems that lots of middling sailors want to be paid by the skipper every race, which means that running a racing yacht becomes an even more expensive and elitist sport.

I'm happy asking crew to contribute, since a lot of the time they want to do yacht races whereas I could either be off training or racing on my little one designs or crewing on a glamour yacht. It's simply not worth it for me if I have to do all the work and pay out all the cash. However, my crew tend to fall into one group who are less skilled and eager to learn, and another group who are keen rivals in dinghies and appreciate the fact that I let them call many of the shots and drive a lot.

Would the crew (or at least the one who can helm) contribute costs if they can take the boat out by themselves?

EDIT - I missed the bit where they could do so. In that case I'd ask them to help out.

 

[roblpm]

One of my crew bought the 40'er he used to sail on a new headsail for the Hobart. Sadly we moved away before he could do the same for our boat! He's also a very good sailor (ex national champ skipper) and I think he was basically sailing master, so as with others here it was a case of someone basically giving money in recognition of being given control. The fact that the owner's new second-hand boat had turned out to need a very expensive keel structure rebuild (don't mention the B word!) may have been a factor.

IMHO there would be at least six factors; the relative disposable incomes of skipper and crew; the amount of money spent on the boat; the relative skill level of skipper and crew; and the amount of control or input the crew get, which has to be related to their skill levels; the amount of time the crew spend helping out; how much the skipper really wants to race; and how much the crew really want to race.

In my experience, many crew understand that these issues mean that the amount of cash or work expected can vary from boat to boat and from crewperson to crewperson. Equally, the equation is so complicated and so individual that no one should take offence if they feel they are asked to take on too much.

Personally I reckon it's good for sailing if the crew are often expected to contribute in cash or kind or in expertise. In the USA it seems that lots of middling sailors want to be paid by the skipper every race, which means that running a racing yacht becomes an even more expensive and elitist sport.

Would the crew (or at least the one who can helm) contribute costs if they can take the boat out by themselves?

All good points. But i think i am going to sell the boat. Then if we want to buy a 707 together so be it. I think its probably better going in to a venture from the start than me changing the game now.

 

[flaming]

I'd be more up for nominating a crew member to supply lunch for the boat each race (perhaps divvying up costs if the crew is not that fixed). This is more to do with the fact that I feel guilty that the skipper has to go buy food, on top of arriving earlier to sort the boat out, whereas I just breeze in at the allotted time. I realise that this does not make a massive difference to the overall cost of running a racing yacht.

We do this. Lunch is brought by one person for each day and the owner never takes a turn. Has a fringe benefit that the quality of lunch has become very high as it has become a competitive sport with some of our guys getting very creative with the sandwiches!

 

[Dawnrazor]

I'd not expect my lot (or any visitors) to pay any main running costs for the boat, as it was my decision to buy her and it's my liability. However.........

If we visit any marinas, they pay the mooring fees, provide breakfast, lunch, dinner, stock up with drinks etc, which is all good with me. She's a happy boat for it and money only brings out the worst in people in my opinion. Saying that, there is one rule which everyone has stuck to "if you break it, you replace/fix it".

 

[Iain C]

Hmmm, tricky one. Actual fixed running costs of the boats, or for that matter equipment, is a bit of a no-no IMHO. Would get really messy if you needed to sell the boat from some reason. From a racing perspective, if for example you had a regular crew, you all decided your downwind speed was rubbish because of a knackered or missing kite, and you all elected to chip in and but a new one, on the basis that if you (the owner) wanted to sell the boat, you could either buy the kite and sell with the boat, or you ebay it and split the proceeds, that's fair. Clearly bend it/lose it, mend or replace it applies at all times if it's down to carelessness, but you can't pin gear failure on the unlucky person who happened to be using whatever it was at the time.

I've borrowed a boat a few times for the RTIR, and we always try to leave the boat better/cleaner than we found it (not hard in the case of this particular boat haha) and we get around the "awkward" money question by leaving "diesel money" (and way more that we burned) under a bottle of wine on the chart table.

For cruising, if I have non-sailing occasional "guests" on board for a weekend, then I usually cover marinas and food, although they'll often offer bring or buy dinner. For taking my sailing mates sailing, we'll just split everything between us, as long as there is agreement on what we eating/drinking and where we are staying. However I'm doing a trip to Cornwall next month where various sailing friends will be joining me for part of the trip and I recognise that although they are getting a nice little trip away I'm also very grateful for their time and skills, so I'd probably cover any marinas and make sure there's some beer on board, but probably split food and certainly any meals out.

 

[Don107]

On the boat i crew on we all contribute to the costs

We generally break stuff on it and the skipper buys the new stuff to fix it up again

Eventually if we break enough stuff (the previous boat was 4 years old) we tell him it would be cheaper for him to buy us a new boat (which he did) but i think he wanted a new one anyway

Seriously though he loves his sailing and is very competitive and pushes the boat pretty hard and doesn't mind spending money to make it go as fast as possible

I generally bring along enough Jelly Beans and Iced Vovo's for all the crew to share on the longer races

Regards Don

 

[Neil_Y]

Not an issue legally, as it's cost sharing.

I normally agree with everything you say Flaming but having been through the whole coding and yacht operation the MCA is quite clear. I've copied the link below for details in the first para.

Cost sharing for a voyage is not a problem but cost sharing for fixed costs such as berthing, insurance, routine maintenance, sails etc is not permitted as defined by the MCA. It is a slightly tricky one, what happens if the crew buy the owner a new sail? but the MCA has tried to be clear that it is only direct expenses of any given voyage that can be shared.

https://assets.publishing.service.g.../268868/mgn489-amendment-pleasure-vessels.pdf