Chris_Robb
Well-known member
Pete - Its the last few lines that ruins the policy - suddenly - if you have not notified them about a change in value you may not be paid out. What is in black and white is important.... It may come to pass
Any insurance recommendations (NOT Y Insurance)
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DavidJ
Well-known member
I must thank you Chris for the very clear way you lay things out.
Your last post made me think about "change in value"
I've put in air con - change in value (I didn't tell Y about this, guess I should have)
I've replaced all the upholstery with which was tatty and damaged - change in value or just normal maintenance to retain value and make it sell-able.
Hmmmmm?
Your last post made me think about "change in value"
I've put in air con - change in value (I didn't tell Y about this, guess I should have)
I've replaced all the upholstery with which was tatty and damaged - change in value or just normal maintenance to retain value and make it sell-able.
Hmmmmm?
petem
Well-known member
Chris, see my post #166 above.
I will have notified them about the change in value when I renew my policy.
Hurricane
Well-known member
After these last few posts, maybe I will be telling the insurer when I buy the policy how I have made up the "Agreed Value".
i.e.
Find an appropriate second hand boat that is for sale and list its price.
Then add an estimate for each of the extra items that I have installed on the boat.
For example, my new synthetic teak, Coppercoat bottom, new cockpit covers, modern toilets etc
List the "replacement value" for each item
The total being the "Agreed Value"
Of course, this assumes that I get a good "Agreed Value" policy.
i.e.
Find an appropriate second hand boat that is for sale and list its price.
Then add an estimate for each of the extra items that I have installed on the boat.
For example, my new synthetic teak, Coppercoat bottom, new cockpit covers, modern toilets etc
List the "replacement value" for each item
The total being the "Agreed Value"
Of course, this assumes that I get a good "Agreed Value" policy.
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
Pete
Post no 166
My view is that it would be sufficient to check the market value of the boat at renewal time. It would not be reasonable for an insurer to expect an owner to constantly monitor the market value of his boat. I'm not concerned by this clause at all.
That's not what it says. Its what is written that matters.... That's how I look at it so Topsail N&G off the list Amlin still on but V expensive, GJW Good Value, and Nav & Gen direct - good contract = waiting quote following survey. Survey to day in Greece cancelled by Thunderstorms! Surveyor also say Snow forecast soon for Athens!!!!
Good luck anyway - the chances of things going wrong are indeed small - but so it the accident that puts you in that position.
DavidJ
Well-known member
Is this because of “. It would not be reasonable for an insurer to expect an owner to constantly monitor the market value of his boat. I'm not concerned by this clause at all.”
or was there something else
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
David - its because at one point the contract is an agreed value one - then doubt is brought into it with a clause mentioning market value which has NO relevance in a contract where the agreed value is defined by a proper underwriting of the risk - ie before you get insurance the underwriter will - or rather - should - ask you to justify your valuations. So this clause is a contradiction of the Agreed Value.
Reading the rest of the contract if was a bit messy - So as I can get a sensible contract, I am not going with a ??? contract which does not show clarity and certainty, as I don't need to.
DavidJ
Well-known member
Thanks Chris for clarification
I’m a couple of weeks away from pushing the button so this debate is great for me
petem
Well-known member
David, you just have to read the policy with a critical eye. For example, the N&G policy says....
"Unseaworthy: The insured property is unseaworthy if it is not designed, built, maintained and crewed in such a way as to be able to operate safely in the conditions which can reasonably be expected. If you are unable to maintain the insured property due to the lack of knowledge, time or skill you must engage the services of somebody to do so on your behalf. "
For anyone who does their own maintenance, with this policy, if they work on their boat and unwittingly cause it to sink (perhaps they replaced a skin fitting incorrectly) they need to be able to prove that they had the 'skill' to undertake this repair.
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petem
Well-known member
Mike,
To summarize your requirements you need a policy that:
1) Gives you the agreed value as per your upgrades, etc.
2) Doesn't have exclusions within the policy that gives the insurer wriggle room to refuse the claim.
3) Is competitively priced.
My requirement is the same I believe that the Topsail policy meets all three criteria.
But what would be helpful is if someone could do a pros and cons for each of the main insurer's policies. For example, some are better than other for agreed value. Some have more onerous terms regarding skin fittings, maintenance, anchoring (leaving the boat unattended), etc,
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
Its very difficult, because I would be unhappy if some bodger on another yacht because they cocked up a simple job caused my premiums to rise, when I bother. People do need some basic knowledge - I wouldn't be happy with my wife replacing a seacock for instance (shhhh)
Topsail Nav and Gen version has this:
Taking care of Your vessel:
Remember that your policy is not a maintenance contract.
It is up to you to ensure that all measures are taken to
maintain your vessel and machinery.
Thats not a strong contract statement at all. I am not complaining, but if it causes my premiums to rise I would be very annoyed!
Its worthy of note, but on the stats of life boat tow ins is dirty fuel - something which is inexcusable for most - its rare you pick up a load of dirty fuel now. But I consider the designers and builders of yachts to have been negligent in not providing a proper design solution - such as a sump and tap. Of course this can take 15 20 years to build up to a crisis..... so the builder is way past accepting the claim on them.... But I still think this IS the responsibility of an owner and might - depending on circumstances - be a cause for non payment of compensation..... as they say above - its not a maintenance contract!
Portofino
Well-known member
They change every time @ renewal .It’s not necessarily a once a year thing in between , the policy wording may change from Jan to April to Oct .
So a pros n cons list today will date quickly .
So a pros n cons list today will date quickly .
petem
Well-known member
I agree.
petem
Well-known member
On the subject of maintenance I suspect that most people have their engines serviced every year and have their boats lifted for antifouling and anodes. They will have invoices showing that this work has been done.
On top of that, most people will perform some basic checks before and after a trip out.
I'd be wary of any policy that requires anything more onerous than the above.
On top of that, most people will perform some basic checks before and after a trip out.
I'd be wary of any policy that requires anything more onerous than the above.
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
The policy wording is issued with the renewal. It is that document that is binding on all parties until the next renewal, and even then, they have to point you to changes - a legal requirement, which allows them to get round the unfair trade terms laws. I have never seen one in recent years from the marine insurance industry. It is VERY important that you keep - preferably by printing as copy of the wording at each renewal -
Hurricane
Well-known member
I haven't yet dug into the "nitty gritty".
My premium isn't due until April.
So, is the Topsail policy an All Risks policy?
And what do people think the importance of All Risks?
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
Pete, thats your view, but I would prefer a much stronger statement here as I would prefer the Insurer managed the risks better and not insure people who don't take this seriously because it WILL affect my premium
Hurricane
Well-known member
I do both those things myself.
And when the boat is out of the water, if something needs renewing or replacing, generally, I do it myself.
I wouldn't have any specific invoices.
You know our marina - we have those paniols (sheds) - and as many SCM friends will know, mine is full pf spares.
And I would't want that to affect my insurance policy.
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
All risks is the basis of a comprehensive policy - so yes it is important and I dont know one that doesnt have that.
TwoHooter
Well-known member
I decided to do that when I was looking at the last renewal. It's an eye-opener. When I analysed policies systematically I found that some are explicit about particular risks or covers and others are silent, and you soon realise there is a vast amount to be considered. In the end I persevered long enough to produce a checklist which is attached as a pdf. I'm not suggesting anyone else uses it, it's intended just as an illustration of how complicated insurance is. I have deleted all personal information (I hope) but I have left a few notes about particular policies to illustrate how I intend to use the thing. The notes are probably out of date now so don't rely on them.
If you think I'm being a pedant with the level of detail I have gone into I would just point out that our boat is worth about the same as our house, in fact at the moment there is more demand for boats like ours than there is for houses like ours! It's really quite important to us that we are insured.
Concerning what to tell the insurers I think that from now on at renewal I will email to them a copy of our log book which I maintain as a spreadsheet and which includes increasingly detailed records of work done including a schedule of seacocks and the work done to inspect and exercise them, also anode renewals, etc. I could also send them our invoices which are also gradually becoming electronic, maybe even our photo folders with the pictures taken at each lift-out. One of the advantages of modern record keeping is that all these records are backed up off-site automatically in real time whether I am at home or on the boat so there is no risk of losing them if the worst happens.
