Another pending Liveaboard at the point of getting his boat.....

[7htas]

Hi

I’ve been a long time lurker of this forum, and have been harbouring aspirations to become a liveaboard since I was a nipper! I’m finally at the point where I have the money to go for it.

I might as well give a little background information, for consideration as I am looking for some advice. At 25, I decided to work towards the goal; and I formulated a plan which was to join the merchant navy, and qualify as a deck officer; as the work ratios would enable me to work and enjoy sailing the boat in my leave. It hasn’t all be plane sailing, there’s been a few metaphorical composite great circle calculations thrown in to deal with; my cadetship was a nightmare, and since qualifying I’ve been reluctantly working as an officer on cruise ships(not my cup of tea), and also undertaken some mate work on an ocean survey vessel. I’ve recently found something with a suitable rotation of 10 weeks on, 5 weeks off which is more permanent, so I’ve decided to rejig my finances, and spend this summer considering a suitable boat, with the plan to get one end of season. Here I am, at the age of 32 with the goal in sight.

I originally planned on buying a dinghy to learn how to sail (already completed, my tinker traveller is now up for sale) – and I initially was going to go for a Hurley 24/70; or something of that ilk, but after speaking to a Sadler 32 owner, and having a look inside his boat, I decided to skip the Hurley idea, and wait, and save for something bigger. A sadler 32 in good order, is a little out of my price range though, I don't want to buy a project boat and I don’t think I need something that big.

I’m planning on living aboard, and initially, I’m wanting to keep it in my local marina for a year, I plan on getting out on the Irish sea to build up my sailing experience, eventually head to the med (summer 2018)

I’ve obviously navigated large cruise ships, and bulk carriers, and even did a little stint on the Lord Nelson sailing barque; but as far as sailing a yacht goes, and owning one- I’m a novice. I have a few friends though, who have promised to come sailing with me when I get the boat, so it’s not as if I’m going to do a Les Powells, or Fred Rebel, and sail off alone with no experience, plus, with my merchant navy experience, I’d like to think I would be able to keep a small boat out of trouble.


I’m single, and will mostly be living aboard, and probably sailing singlehandedly as well, so I’m looking for a boat which is relatively easy to handle and safe. I’ve been looking at a few Sadler 29’s which are in my price range, and I’ve seen a few Moody 33s, which again, are in my price range and look ideal- I like the centre cockpit on them. My reasoning for wanting a Sadler is because of their well insulated hulls; I'm thinking Living aboard in the UK- osmosis?

What I’d like:

I want a 30ft +/- 2ft GRP construction Yacht,

I’m not concerned about sailing performance, I want something safe, and practical for a singlehander

Something with a reliable engine

Something with no signs of osmosis, and ideally something not susceptible to it.

Berth wise; the standard forward V berth, and a rear berth for when my Daughter visits.

I’d like something which has recently been surveyed (If anyone can suggest a good surveyor in the Merseyside area, please PM me)

I’d like something with ocean going capabilities

Ideally a boat which has already been used to live aboard, possibly with solar/wind generators and the like,

Ready to sail, and ready to live on.

A boat which could accommodate a liveboard in the UK, and eventually the Med,

,


Now, onto the budget,

I have about 16k maximum, and marina fees I have allotted for separately. Would that be sufficient to pick up one of the below boats, with my requirements...

Sadler 29
Moody33
First 30

Does anyone have any knowledge in relation to these boats, specifically with the above 'wants' in mind, I'd appreciate your input.

I'm hopefully going to see a Seawolf 30 MK 3 this weekend; which appear to be good solid boats; but this boat is being sold as a super fast racing boat, whereas I'm after a floating tank, which is safe, rather than fast, although seeing a few others online, they look like very well made boats, and the inventory of this boat is impressive.

Perhaps my list is asking a little too much?

Any comments and suggestions would be really appreciated

 

[Tranona]

There is a huge variety of boats in that size/price range simply because it was a big chunk of the market 30-40 years ago. The Moody 33 is a good choice for layout and space, but they were not the best built of boats - very 1970's formica inside and many have not worn well. The aft cabin is though a big plus. Equally the contemporary Westerlys of similar size are popular. Bit old fashioned compared with the Moody but very robust. Sadlers are generally more performance orientated and smaller inside. Not sure the insulation makes a significant difference - you can easily insulate a single skin boat for comfort. the First is a much lighter performance orientated boat.

As ever, don't get too hung up about particular designs - there are very few "bad" boats of the type you are looking at. The key thing, apart from being happy with the layout and gear for living is condition, condition..... all of the popular boats make good coastal and offshore cruisers, after all that is what they were designed for, and most can be set up easily to sail single or short handed. You are unlikely to get anywhere near the potential of this sort of boat so should feel safe aboard.

You are not necessarily in the best place to view a selection of boats, but on the other hand the limited market might mean you are able to buy a boat at a better deal than elsewhere. Suggest you read the threads by steve yates on the scuttlebut forum. He had less to spend than you but his experience will give you a flavour of what is possible.

Don't forget you have to find somewhere to park your boat, so make sure you have that organised before you buy. You can get a list of surveyors in your area from the YDSA.

Just noticed you are planning to go to the Med. Be aware that you may want to consider changing your boat to do that. Boats designed for the cold damp British Isles have real limitations for cruising in hot climates. While it is true that many people have taken UK boats south this is usually because either that is all they had, or they regretted it once they were there. Have a look at boats out there, or better still take a charter in the summer so you get to understand how different it is and at least how much additional equipment you will need. One good alternative is to buy a shallow draft boat - less than 4' so that you can use the canals. Going round the outside is a big challenge, particularly with the type of boat you are thinking of and your lack of experience. Trying it without appreciating what is involved has killed many a dream and lead to lots of abandoned boats in southern Portugal, Spain, Gib etc. Realistically it will take you a whole season to get that far - and you will have to miss out many of the good bits. You are still well over 1000 miles from the eastern states like Greece and Turkey which are the better areas particularly for those on a small budget.

If you really want a boat in the Med, then consider buying one already there as it will be equipped for the conditions and you can start living the dream straight away!

 

[KellysEye]

Out of interest have you planned for once you leave for the Med how much money will you make and will you run out?

 

[7htas]

Cheers Tranona, I'm going to find that post you suggested and have a read through now. I thought perhaps a boat suitable for the UK and for the med, would be a potential non starter, hence me mentioning it...

KellysEye,

My plan is to work, and live aboard. Being an officer in the Merchant Navy means I work for long periods, and get long periods off. As I progress in rank, I'll be able to pick the rotations which suit me best. I'm thinking somewhere around 3 months on, 3 months off, as a guide. That's a longer term plan, as once I have the required seatime, I am going to get my Chief Mates, and Masters tickets out of the way; I have no idea what my salary will be then- Chief Mates tickets, and Masters tickets- I would say a minimum of 40K annually, only working half of the year- it really depends where in the industry I end up- I have cargo experience, and recent cruise ship experience, but I am heading back on the cargo ships for better rotation/pay; and I'm aiming to hopefully work on the larger ferries (stenna/P&o, etc) eventually.

Thanks again for taking the time to offer your thoughts.

 

[Tranona]

It is quite common for people working your kind of pattern to live on their boat in the Med in the off times. It is possible to do this in the winter in some parts - you just have to be well organized and accept you need a permanent winter berth.

Maybe a good idea to buy a relatively cheap simple boat like a Centaur to learn the ropes in the UK. Big enough to both do serious coastal cruising and live for shorter periods abroad. After a couple of years you should be able to decide whether it is the sailing or the living aboard that grabs you. Then buy an appropriate (better and bigger) boat. If you like the sailing then 2-3 years working your way down the Atlantic coast into the Med is a fantastic experience and can be done in shorter hops, leaving the boat in a secure location when you have to work. On the other hand if you just want to enjoy the relaxed Med lifestyle buy a boat there.

There is plenty of material - books, magazine articles, blogs (many of which you can trace from this forum) describing the different ways people go about their dreams. No need to rush - you have a long life ahead and it will all still be there when you get there!

 

[7htas]

Yeah, I don't need to rush, I've waited this long.

The plan I had in my head, was to eventually head to Greece, on no specific time scale, and what you've said there was exactly what I was planning on doing. I want to slowly work my way south, seeing as much of France, and Portugal as I can and leaving the boat when I need to return to work, and then coming back and continuing to Cartagena, where I'll perhaps loiter for a while. I'd then like to make my way across to Crete; eventually ending up at Agios Nikolaos. I'd like to explore the Black Sea, northern Turkey, and Georgia- I read a very comprehensive blog, which I found on here a few years ago, and it's always stuck with me; the notion of exploring the area.

I was initially aiming at getting something like a centaur, hurley 24/70, etc- something in the under 10k price bracket, came very close to getting a 22 foot hurley when I was a cadet, but I decided to wait and to get something a little bigger, not too much bigger, but around the 30 foot mark- Made my first enquiry about a boat this evening, and I'm hopefully going to look at it this weekend.

cheers

 

[Tranona]

If you really want a boat for a long term plan like that, suggest you should be prepared to spend significantly more money as the 40 year old boats you are talking about for that money will inevitably become one long project. Sometimes leading to the description of liveaboard cruising as as continually fixing boats in warm places! It is just unreasonable to expect a boat like that to be a reliable combination of home and transport for an extended period. Remember a new boat of that size is well over £100k and bits to fix are related to that price level, not the £15k you pay for the worn out selection of bits that make up a used boat! It would be easy to spend as much again as the purchase price to carry out a basic refit.

You can buy a 20 year old modern 32/34' boat, much more suited to Med sailing and living aboard for £30-40k in good enough condition to give you the second 20 years of its life without major expenditure. For example Clipper Marine have a number of early 2000's Bavaria 32s and 34s for sail in that price bracket. These (along with similar size/age Beneteaus and Jeanneaus) are extremely popular in the Med as they formed the backbone of the charter fleets at the time. They are vastly superior for your plans than the boats you are looking at and in the long run much more cost effective to run.

 

[Old Thady]

There is a huge variety of boats in that size/price range simply because it was a big chunk of the market 30-40 years ago. The Moody 33 is a good choice for layout and space, but they were not the best built of boats - very 1970's formica inside and many have not worn well. The aft cabin is though a big plus.

Have a look at this You Tube video by a single liveaboard who had bought boat with an aft cabin. He wishes he had one bigger saloon space. I've never been a liveaboard but, if you're mainly going to be alone, this seems to make sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e33WZoBwPU
The comment I refer to may not be in this 'episode' but it's somewhere in the series.

 

[LinTeal]

You cannot go wrong with a Sadler 29 and the double skin will be a great advantage living on board in colder climates.

 

[Tranona]

You cannot go wrong with a Sadler 29 and the double skin will be a great advantage living on board in colder climates.

The OP has a 20+ year plan to cruise the Mediterranean, and while the boat you suggest is a good UK coastal cruising boat, it will be very restrictive for what he wants to do.

 

[7htas]

I would ideally like to buy something, which I can keep and use for a long time.

Having taken on aboard the above suggestions, about perhaps going for something a little newer, I'd say that Tranona is bang on the money. There's loads of Moodys, Westerlys, etc, around my price range now- but they were built 30/40 years ago- I think spending a little more on the 'right boat' - could eventually be more cost effective in the long term.

I've been looking at some of the Bavaria/Jeanau/Beneteau's built in the 90's- and there appears to be no shortage of ideal boats around the 30K mark.

As far as my finances go; I've got 20k put to one side. I don't have any mortgages, or property or other financial commitments, other than a Loan which has about 5.5k left. I think I'm going to settle this loan, which will reduce my pot of money to 14.5k- but I'm starting my new job on Friday, and by August, when I return, that amount will be reclaimed, and I'll be in a position to speak to the bank manager; I'm going to get myself a 15K loan, essentially giving me 30 for the boat, and the rest for Marina fees, Liverpool Marina is expensive!

I only wish that this boat was put on the Market in August, because I would bite his hand off for this!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dufour-Gi...075981?hash=item44035b114d:g:iPcAAOSwq1JZFKiP

 

[Garold]

I would ideally like to buy something, which I can keep and use for a long time.

Having taken on aboard the above suggestions, about perhaps going for something a little newer, I'd say that Tranona is bang on the money. There's loads of Moodys, Westerlys, etc, around my price range now- but they were built 30/40 years ago- I think spending a little more on the 'right boat' - could eventually be more cost effective in the long term.

I've been looking at some of the Bavaria/Jeanau/Beneteau's built in the 90's- and there appears to be no shortage of ideal boats around the 30K mark.

As far as my finances go; I've got 20k put to one side. I don't have any mortgages, or property or other financial commitments, other than a Loan which has about 5.5k left. I think I'm going to settle this loan, which will reduce my pot of money to 14.5k- but I'm starting my new job on Friday, and by August, when I return, that amount will be reclaimed, and I'll be in a position to speak to the bank manager; I'm going to get myself a 15K loan, essentially giving me 30 for the boat, and the rest for Marina fees, Liverpool Marina is expensive!

I only wish that this boat was put on the Market in August, because I would bite his hand off for this!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dufour-Gi...075981?hash=item44035b114d:g:iPcAAOSwq1JZFKiP

That boat looks like a good buy because of all the recent upgrades/repairs.

Why not use your £20k, not pay off your loan, add a bit from a cc, and make an offer (collecting it when you are back in August). Boats aren't easy to sell and you may just be the right buyer at the right time.

Then get a cheap winter berth deal, maybe paying it monthly.

However, another thought... French boats are so numerous, another one of a similar spec and price will always come along some time soon. So just use this one as a benchmark for your future expectations.

Worth a try?

Garold

 

[7htas]

That boat looks like a good buy because of all the recent upgrades/repairs.

Why not use your £20k, not pay off your loan, add a bit from a cc, and make an offer (collecting it when you are back in August). Boats aren't easy to sell and you may just be the right buyer at the right time.




Then get a cheap winter berth deal, maybe paying it monthly.

However, another thought... French boats are so numerous, another one of a similar spec and price will always come along some time soon. So just use this one as a benchmark for your future expectations.

Worth a try?

Garold

I need to see if this new job is going to work for me first, before I make any longer term commitments. It's a probationary contract; they need to like me, and more importantly, I need to like working for them. The the job market is at the moment, for newly qualified officers is not great! There's tonnes of newly qualified officers begging for work! So I can't take a chance like that, because IF it does not work out with this job, I could be looking for another job for a while.

Who knows? The boat might still be there in August; I was half tempted to call the guy, and see if he would perhaps take a deposit- but, with the above in mind- it wouldn't be ideal. It sounds like he's purchased this boat, spent lots getting it how he wants, and now has to sell - I suspect an unexpected change may be the cause of it from reading the description.

 

[7htas]

I seen a Westerly GK 34 for sale; which I'd had an eye on for a while; noticing the asking price steadily dropping; and after speaking to a few different people and getting some advice; I went to look at the boat; and made a pretty low offer; which was accepted. The boat owner left for the states 4 years ago, and had been unable to sell it since...

I had her surveyed; and the survey came back with the synopsis that she was a good solid well built boat, with no signs of osmosis in her hull; and a few bits required to get her back into the water. I had her engine fully serviced; the stern tube thingy sorted; new anodes, and I sorted all the flanges/seacocks, and gave her a double coat of cruising antifoul.

I mustered a crew from my local sailing club; and we motorsailed her from Holyhead to Liverpool- the engine never missed a beat the entire journey. We had planned on sailing, but the roller reefing was jamming; and we decided to just motorsail her; as it was getting a bit too windy to try and get the main up.

I'm now living on her; but I feel like I've bitten off more than I can chew for reasons below:

The sails- not up yet; I don't even know where to start. I'm told she's fractional rigged? Three backstays...not sure where to start about servicing these bearings way up the forstay thing...

Fridge Freezer- Decided to buy a mains one for when I'm at the marina (mostly) - and get a 12V cool box for my sailing trips

Mast Gaiter (sp) - She's a keel stepped mast; and water has been getting into the bilges...Hope to rectify this with some flash band, and silcoflex, and nappies in the meantime...

Headlining - Totally ruined in the forward cabin (which is tiny, and only really for storage anyway) - the good thing is that it's mostly in panels ; which I plan on removing; and carpeting; and getting a carpet fitter for the intricate bits...this will be a over time job; panel by panel.

Marine Toilet - won't work- tried all combinations of the seacocks...won't work.

Gas: Got sorted by a gas safe fitter at the weekend; thankfully all okay:

VHF unit is faulty; and needs replacing

The UKC, Anenomter, Speed log are temperamental; and I need to tap the fuse for it to work

Running lights are also temperamental and the fuses get pretty hot when the cabin lights are on (I'm looking at getting LEDS, but they are car bulbs...)

Chart plotter works okay

Lowrance GPS is temperamental - all this electronic stuff; I plan on routing out the manuals

Small leak on one of the deck fittings; which I'll rectify this week...

I've definitely bitten off more than I can chew.

I'll keep pestering the guys at my sailing club in the hope that one of them comes over to the boat to give me a hand!


Thanks for all the guidance on here...

 

[Kelpie]

Only one deck leak eh... want to swap boats
You can sort the mast collar with a big self amalgamating bandage, I tnk you can get it up to 4" wide. Much easier and neater than messing around with Sikaflex.
For bedding a leaking deck fitting, use butyl rubber- cheap on eBay- as it remains flexible and doesn't make a mess.

The boat sounds like it may be a handful to sail singlehanded. I expect you will have a backstay plus two running backstays. These will need to be adjusted every time you tack, because the fractionally rigged forestay (this means it only goes part way up the mast) needs to be supported by the windward running backstay. However, if can be done singlehanded- especially if ypu have a tillerpilot or windvane on the helm.

 

[Tranona]

Think positive - won't say I told you so because you have the boat so have to get stuck in and deal with it. Break the jobs down into small projects, so don't try to tackle everything at once.

You may find it easier to have the mast taken out as expect you will find there are more things to deal with than just the bearing at the top of the roller furling. As I said before you bought it, the rig is a powerful racing orientated type so expect some wear on all the fittings if it has been sailed hard. Doing this will allow you to check all the fittings at the top of the mast and deal with the through deck sealing when you restep it. There is nothing inherently complex about the fractional rig except that you have running backstays to support the bendy mast if you sail it using the full power of the sails.

If the toilet is a Jabsco you can get a complete new pump for around £60 or if it is a Lavac you probably need to replace the diaphragm in the pump. If another make ditch it and fit a new Jabsco - around £110-120.

Problems with wiring of things like running lights are common because of crap installation in the first place made worse by corrosion and high resistance of the wire and terminals. First systematically trace and clean all the terminals and you may find the problem, but realistically if you want your electrics reliable you have to consider stripping out all the old stuff and building a new system.

Tackling bits at a time means you can see the improvements and you learn new things as you go along. You need this experience as your future (if you own an old boat) is one of constant fixing and improving.

 

[7htas]

I've just ordered some of the Butyl Rubber; and this weekends job will be to remove the leak offending block from the deck; sand it all clean, and re attach with the sealant.

I think the sensible thing to do; would be to use crew for now; friends, people from the sailing club; to get used to sailing her; and perhaps look at converting the set up, so I can use it single handedly in the future! She's only got a tiller; so I'd need to invest in a self steering system, I dread to think what that would cost, along with a new mast and standing/running rigging. Would I need to get a new mast? The mast on her is huge! She's next to some 40 ft boats, and my mast is a few feet bigger than the others; she's certainly been used for racing, with all the sails that she came with!

I'll get my head into the manuals at the weekend, and try and get the toilet going; but I've been pumping, and nothing has been happening!


You're right; there's no point me feeling like I've made a mistake; I've wanted a cruiser/liveaboard boat for 20 years; and I've finally got one; to quote the surveyor; what I paid for the boat; I could spend 6K on her, getting her back to her optimal best; and still probably make money if I decided to sell her! Which is not my intention. I'll be keeping her for a few years.

Cheers folks

 

[Tranona]

A new mast would be more than the value of the boat. You need to think of ways of depowering it, perhaps with smaller sails. But first you need to learn how to sail it (with a knowledgeable crew) so you understand what the barriers are to easier sail handling. Then talk to a sailmaker to find out what can be done with the existing sails.

Perhaps you need to read a bit about yacht design and why boats are different depending on the market they are aimed at. For example key measures are displacement - what the boat weighs, and sail area which represents the power available to drive the boat. Your boat displaces under 4 tons - typically as much as a ton less than a cruising boat of similar size - my more modern and spacious 33' displaces 5.5 tons! Sail areas will vary, but a cruising boat of similar size to yours might have 500 sq ft, whereas yours is likely to be more than that - so less weight and more power - which adds up to a lively boat! The ratio that measures this power/weight is called the SA/Displ ratio and typically for a cruising boat like mine will be around 15 or 16, whereas yours will be greater than 20. Difficult to actually tell as the sail area will be determined by the rating for racing and i can't find any details on it.

Not only do you have far more power than you need for cruising, but the sails will be made so that they can be adjusted to achieve the maximum performance. Hence the bendy mast and lots of string to pull to shape the sails, and of course the running backstays to keep the mast under control when driving the boat hard. This all requires very active sailing to keep the boat going in the right direction and under control.

There are some people, particularly those with a racing background, who advocate ex racing boats for cruising as they say it is always possible to sail at less than maximum. However that assumes you know what you are doing in the first place - so not a good starting point for a novice. Personally I don't subscribe to that view as I believe the compromises are too great, particularly if you want to liveaboard and sail single or short handed. On the other hand, as you have discovered such boats are cheap!

You have time (if you can get the headsail to work) to get some sailing before the winter. Then spend the winter doing the inside jobs ready for getting more experience next year.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Stewart you ought to write a book. Very erudite advice.

 

[Kelpie]

You'd need to invest in a self steering whether the boat has a wheel or a tiller. And the good news is that it's easier and cheaper to do this with a tiller. A basic tillerpilot will prove very useful and is dead easy to install.