Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
The XOD class is going through some convolutions over that just now. You would scarcely believe what some will do to a 70 yr old wooden boat.
IRC for cruisers
- Thread starter PeterV
- Start date
oldbloke
Well-known member
There are , of course, one designs and one designs. When just about everyone is sailing one of Dave Winder's masterpieces there really is nothing to do but look in the mirror
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
Quite. I used to sail Dart cats, then Hurricanes. Both factory one designs.
onesea
Well-known member
To take part, to enjoy trying to win. 1st isn't everything, sadly reaching is infected by checkbooks.
There are many well fought battles in the middle of the fleet. People who enjoy trying but are not that fussed about actually getting to the podium.
Good sailers who cannot afford the time/ money/ effort to be top flight but enjoy there races.
They should start by removing the epoxy fairing from the forward sections if I recall that had been added layer by layer over the years.
Good fleet racing if you have the budget.
Don't mind getting wet for very little speed.
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
A bit of epoxy is cheap. It’s carbon tracks and boom inserts, and hiding your black bands in a race that are causing upset.
michael_w
Well-known member
Don't the XODs have a bit of history for 'adjustments' ? IRRC there was a discrepancy in measured waterline lengths a few years ago.
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
No 2 XODs are identical. Ours is the first boat built by Hampers, and is clearly larger than most. We are grandfathered, she was built in 1952. The last batch of new ones were built to ‘maximise’ the design, and ended up being altered, they were clearly cheating. Other people have taken older boats and cut and shut them to reduce rocker and extend the waterline. I could name 3 boats there. One of those also has a shroud round the sliding gooseneck, and a dodgy boom. It’s a one design, Jim, but not as we know it. We try to ‘soft police’ these things to prevent it getting out of hand. Usually, like the Latham boats, someone pushes and pushes until there’s a correction. I daresay IRC works like that too. Don’t take the piss is the golden rule.
Birdseye
Well-known member
Thats where a lot of misunderstanding comes in. "winning" might be everything to you but that isnt the case for all others. Sure some people always try to win and hope to win, but lots of sailors just race for the fun of it Some dont believe they can win but still go for social reasons. And there are huge numbers who never race because of the aggression and competitiveness they see in the race fleets.
That is the big worry. At best, maybe only 2% of our local sailboats join in the racing. Many boats just float neglected on their berths. The racing issue that needs addressing is not handicaps but how to make racing a much less serious and more fun experience that will draw people in.
Birdseye
Well-known member
Interesting comment. Is it traditional for the owner to provide life jackets? I ask because all my spares went with the last boat when I gave up sailing ( lasted 4 months) and I find that not all crew have their own. Perhaps more to the point, what does the skipper pay for and what does the whole crew cover - food, marina, euqipment etc
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
If I’m the skipper/owner, I’ll definitely be covering race entry fees, marina, and of course we have berths for all the crew required to race her. Otherwise people do a basic airbnb for the crew. Race lunch/sandwiches, lifejackets andany team clothing too. after that it gets more woolly. I’ve raced in St Tropez and been given the all inclusive treatment, partly because I skippered the delivery. Some skippers are pretty generous anyway. I guess it depends how deep your pockets are. Flaming is a lucky chap, he seems to have a bunch of ladies who go Dutch. We just run a boat that normally races 3 up.
Neeves
Well-known member
Virtually all our races except for the RORC China Sea Races were day races, mostly Sundays. We needed a crew of 6 out of a pool of 10. I paid for race entry and at the end of a race we would get an idea of who could race the next weekend. One person, in an irregular rota was nominated to supply lunch. We often had newbies on the yacht to test them out and they would be taught sail trim, foredeck work etc. If after the race you wanted beer - you brought your own - but alcohol was not a big thing.
I supplied harnesses, tethers and lifejackets and paid for anything for the boat, racing insurance, race fees, fuel, flares I paid for new sails. If anything broke or was damaged, I paid. On the China Sea races the yacht was available for accomodation for the crew in the Phillipines, most wanted to fly home and back to work. Some of crew sailed, with me, the boat back. There was an annual race, CNY, to Macau - same - crew slept on the boat. Some would arrange for partners to take the ferry and would pay for their own accomodation. We had a rather large and boisterous dinner at the end of the outward leg - and I'd like to say I paid - but I don't recall. It was a 3 day event, one day out, a lay day when we played or watched the cricket on the beach and then a race back. Coming back, and from the Philippines, we had a major handicap - any alcohol was taxed heavily in HK and wine was cheap in Macau and rum cost peanuts in the Phillipines, having 6 cases of alcohol did not help performance - except all other yachts were similarly handicapped.
We dry sailed JoXephine, I paid all marina costs - I was the owner, and the crew, or most of them, spent time keeping the hull spotless before the RORC races. They wanted to be on a winning yacht.
The crew must have enjoyed racing - we sailed together for over 4 years, and years later I still keep in touch with most of them.
I'd comment that we were aggressive and committed - but that is the same for any sport whether its a work football team or professional swimming. Why anyone expects owners and crew to sit back and drink beer on a race - I don't understand.
If you, the yacht, don't know the rules - you are a liability - its expensive if you do the wrong thing at a mark - and you rightly, loudly and quickly are taught the error of your ways.
Jonathan
For the RORC races we would have a start of 50-60 yachts with crews of 6-8, will be more now - the yachts are really big now. Crews would be minimum of 6 - that's a lot of people willing to race for 4 days, maybe stop over then fly home - and another 4 days back. For the Typhoon series there might be 100 yachts at a start line - slightly smaller crew on each yacht. It was a change from the regime of suits and ties.
I supplied harnesses, tethers and lifejackets and paid for anything for the boat, racing insurance, race fees, fuel, flares I paid for new sails. If anything broke or was damaged, I paid. On the China Sea races the yacht was available for accomodation for the crew in the Phillipines, most wanted to fly home and back to work. Some of crew sailed, with me, the boat back. There was an annual race, CNY, to Macau - same - crew slept on the boat. Some would arrange for partners to take the ferry and would pay for their own accomodation. We had a rather large and boisterous dinner at the end of the outward leg - and I'd like to say I paid - but I don't recall. It was a 3 day event, one day out, a lay day when we played or watched the cricket on the beach and then a race back. Coming back, and from the Philippines, we had a major handicap - any alcohol was taxed heavily in HK and wine was cheap in Macau and rum cost peanuts in the Phillipines, having 6 cases of alcohol did not help performance - except all other yachts were similarly handicapped.
We dry sailed JoXephine, I paid all marina costs - I was the owner, and the crew, or most of them, spent time keeping the hull spotless before the RORC races. They wanted to be on a winning yacht.
The crew must have enjoyed racing - we sailed together for over 4 years, and years later I still keep in touch with most of them.
I'd comment that we were aggressive and committed - but that is the same for any sport whether its a work football team or professional swimming. Why anyone expects owners and crew to sit back and drink beer on a race - I don't understand.
If you, the yacht, don't know the rules - you are a liability - its expensive if you do the wrong thing at a mark - and you rightly, loudly and quickly are taught the error of your ways.
Jonathan
For the RORC races we would have a start of 50-60 yachts with crews of 6-8, will be more now - the yachts are really big now. Crews would be minimum of 6 - that's a lot of people willing to race for 4 days, maybe stop over then fly home - and another 4 days back. For the Typhoon series there might be 100 yachts at a start line - slightly smaller crew on each yacht. It was a change from the regime of suits and ties.
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Ryanwilliams
New member
Thanks i think i have learnt alot from your answers
flaming
Well-known member
My view is that if it's required by the race rules, or the offshore special regs, then it's my lookout. And lifejackets are required, so there is a full set, with in date servicing, on the boat at all times. Some of the crew have their own and prefer them, and that's fine, but if they forget them one day then the boat still needs to be compliant with all regs every time it leaves the dock to go racing. It's also good peace of mind for me that if someone is wearing a lifejacket on my boat, then I know it's suitable for the sailign we are doing and has been professionally serviced. I also encourage those with lifejackets to put them in the pile at the end of the season so that they go off for servicing at the same time...
As to who covers what cost, that's very much an individual thing. I spent 15 amazing years sailing with one of the best and most generous people I've ever met. So now that I've taken on the mantle of owner, I try and do things the same way as far as possible.
When we go away, to Cowes or Dartmouth for example, then we rent a house and get food shopping etc, and we then split the costs. Because I'm the one sorting it all out I have the luxury of quietly saying to students etc "don't worry about it" but the expectation amongst the crew who all have good jobs is that I'm not funding their holiday, just the racing part. So when we go out for dinner it's again just the normal "large table in restaurant" settling up. At every event I try and make a point of buying the first round, but sometimes I'm almost forcibly prevented from doing so....
The crew are also aware that my pockets aren't quite as deep as the previous owners, and so have been chipping in for entry fees, which is good as it allows me to spend more on sails... But if they didn't I wouldn't complain. I'd love to be the sort of owner who just splashes out for all and sundry whilst at a regatta, but I'd probably have to downsize to a laser to do that....
olly_love
Member
We have a very simlar approach to this,
my view is that ill provide a fully sorted boat with good sails and a clean bottom that doesnt break.
We cover all the inshore smaller entry fees etc but don't generally get dinner or other costs.
for the larger events or any we stay away then then we all split this. I have a rule of we provide the boat but wont pay for your holiday.
We have had the same core crew now for 12 years so seems to work well.
as Flaming has said i would love to be able to pay for everything but i think the days of that in the solent are dying.
Neeves
Well-known member
When we moved from HK to Oz I decided I would not race, I simply could not afford the yacht to compete and I could not stomach the ideas of building a new crew from scratch, when all the people who could crew were already committed. HK has gone the same way - big yachts. I crewed on an Etchells here - but it was not the same. I always enjoyed the sail back from the Philippines after the RORC races - we chose to cruise. and bought a yacht accordingly. Interestingly the sail trimming skills I learnt racing stood in good stead when cruising - and we never averaged 10 knots over 100nm when we raced - but did so cruising....
Jonathan
mrming
Well-known member
On the subject of bandits, I've been racing IRC since it's inception (and CHS before that). There are boats that are easier to sail to their rating, and obvious things the rule prefers. These boats usually end up well prepared and in the hands of good sailors. They're not necessarily the newest, most expensive boats, but the sails and rigging still cost the same. I've rarely been beaten by a poorly sailed one of these, except in club racing where there are not enough class bands, and / or boats with wildly different ratings.
On costs, I've campaigned my own boat in the past, and also sail in 2 different crews with long term sailing friends. We split all costs except the actual boat costs (sails, equipment and maintenance). On the Solent, one of the things that works for us is we have a boat we can all sleep aboard. This means crew can afford to do more races. We do occasionally rent a house for things like RTI but mostly we're slumming it.
On costs, I've campaigned my own boat in the past, and also sail in 2 different crews with long term sailing friends. We split all costs except the actual boat costs (sails, equipment and maintenance). On the Solent, one of the things that works for us is we have a boat we can all sleep aboard. This means crew can afford to do more races. We do occasionally rent a house for things like RTI but mostly we're slumming it.
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
I’m sure that going back a few years, boat designs put more empasis on crew accommodation. Not luxury by any means, but somewhere to get your head down. It’s a tough one though, cos a boat equipped for 8 people torough it on is unlikely to be a cruiser suitable for the family when not racing. The solution might be to design boats that need less crew, or indeed to handicap crew numbers.
flaming
Well-known member
My own view is that the era of cruiser racers is over.
The divide between what is sold as a family cruiser now, and what is sold as a racer is so stark. If you look at the creature comforts available in something like a 35 foot AWB it takes a very particular type of person to turn their back on that and decide to cruise in something like a J99. Add in the time pressure that anyone making enough money to afford one is likely to be under and as a result of which vanishingly small numbers of race boats are doing any meaningful amount of cruising. And frankly, nothing that someone used to early 2000s cruiser racers - the Elan range, the Dehlers, the X362, the First 40.7 etc etc - would recognise as a cruiser racer is even getting made any more.
Meanwhile the boats being sold a cruising boats are completely unsuited for being thrashed around the race course. So really you have an ever bigger split between cruisers and racers.
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
You are right, of course. And if that’s what sailors want it’s all fine. The new version of ours is still very much a cruiser-racer, and sells in ever larger numbers even though the design is now 14. It’s a totally different scene to the conventional keelboat world. I just cannot envisage spending 100k plus on a boat just used to race. But this is where the rating rules and the never ending quest to win in any legal way has led. It’s not that surprising that less serious racers don’t really exist any more. I get the racing mostly out of the way in XODs, it doesn’t come much more serious in terms of competition, but it isn’t offshore yachting.
B27
Well-known member
The danger is perhaps twofold.
Firstly, people are buying racing boats which when they become obsolete, won't be saleable to cruising sailors.
Secondly there will be a greater divide between the serious race boats and the 'club level' boats. I've got a mate who races a moderate amount on a Sigma 38, including the Fastnet last year. They are thinking of giving up.
There don't seem to be many younger people or boats joining the 'amateur' fleets to replace the old blokes who are going back to Phantom and Solo Dinghies.