Anchors!

[dom]

The Spade just loves to dig - mine tried to cut through my living room rug and set itself in the floor

Pete

The faces of the occupants in the apartment below must have been a sight!

 

[pagoda]

Last boat started out with a Bruce copy. Worked fine in mud or soft sand/gravel. Not great at re-setting with tide. Was difficult to set in hard sand and caused palpitations in high winds. We swapped it for a Manson. That worked appreciably better in almost all conditions. We rarely set less than 4:1, all chain.
The boat we bought last year came with a 15Kg stainless Bruce. We used it in Sweden/Norway and Scotland on the way back. It worked more or less OK.

This season we are doing more anchoring so it's been replaced by a 13Kg Knox. The profile is similar to Manson so should be capable of setting well in harder sediments, and also re-setting! It's on 50m of 10mm chain.

 

[duncan99210]

We spend most of our time on the hook: typically 100+ nights a year. When we bought the boat, it had a CQR of indeterminate origin: it was fine most of the time but occasionally refused to set. Equally, if it popped out due to high winds, it'd never reset and we'd have to bring it in and start all over again: not what is wanted on a windy night. It was eventually dumped in favour of a Rocna after it repeatedly refused to set when we were in the Balearics.
I'd have had a Bruce or a Delta but couldn't spot one of the right size locally, so caught the bus to Palma and went shopping. I bought the Rocna because it wasn't a CQR and had had good write ups on here and elsewhere. I've been happy with it, sleeping soundly where I'd have been thinking about setting an anchor watch with the old anchor. It's not perfect, hates thick weed and meant I had to fit two separate bow lights rather than the single bi-colour as the anchor obstructed the light. However, it's really is a much better anchor. I now tend to lie to one anchor in a blow rather than putting out the kedge as well as I'm confident that the Rocna will hold on its own.
That's my opinion, others have differing views, but I won't be going back to a CQR. That said, if you're not anchoring as much as we do and are generally happy with your current setup, then I for one don't see the need to change. I only changed when I got really annoyed with the behaviour of the CQR, which might, for example, have been down to wear in the hinge preventing it from working properly.

 

[NormanS]

We spend most of our time on the hook: typically 100+ nights a year. When we bought the boat, it had a CQR of indeterminate origin: it was fine most of the time but occasionally refused to set. Equally, if it popped out due to high winds, it'd never reset and we'd have to bring it in and start all over again: not what is wanted on a windy night. It was eventually dumped in favour of a Rocna after it repeatedly refused to set when we were in the Balearics.
I'd have had a Bruce or a Delta but couldn't spot one of the right size locally, so caught the bus to Palma and went shopping. I bought the Rocna because it wasn't a CQR and had had good write ups on here and elsewhere. I've been happy with it, sleeping soundly where I'd have been thinking about setting an anchor watch with the old anchor. It's not perfect, hates thick weed and meant I had to fit two separate bow lights rather than the single bi-colour as the anchor obstructed the light. However, it's really is a much better anchor. I now tend to lie to one anchor in a blow rather than putting out the kedge as well as I'm confident that the Rocna will hold on its own.
That's my opinion, others have differing views, but I won't be going back to a CQR. That said, if you're not anchoring as much as we do and are generally happy with your current setup, then I for one don't see the need to change. I only changed when I got really annoyed with the behaviour of the CQR, which might, for example, have been down to wear in the hinge preventing it from working properly.

You say that your CQR was of "indeterminate origin". Does that mean that it, like many others, was not an actual CQR, but a copy? A genuine CQR leaves you in no doubts about its origin, and it's a shame when cheap copies of CQRs which don't perform well, damage the reputation of the genuine article. I don't now have a CQR, but happily relied on one for 30 years.

 

[Neeves]

Norman, It seems CQR's popularity is incredibly resilient - which must be something of an annoyance to makes of 'NG' anchors (which including Spade have been around for 25 years now). Consider that the catchall of 'New Generation' comprises at least 6 different designs, Those designs can be vastly different and only appears to be supported by 60% of those answering the Poll. An almost 20% support for one design (now 90 years old), some of which will be copies and a bit iffy - it says a lot for endurance.

Individual NGs have long way to go before they will equal the popularity and acceptance of CQR (and copies).

We too relied on an original CQR and only upgraded to NG when the Manson copy we were using was totally unreliable (and is significantly different in a number of aspects to the original).

Interesting that Danforth/Fortress/Britany are omitted from the poll.

Jonathan

 

[coopec]

We too relied on an original CQR and only upgraded to NG when the Manson copy we were using was totally unreliable (and is significantly different in a number of aspects to the original).

Interesting that Danforth/Fortress/Britany are omitted from the poll.

Jonathan

Oh geeeez! I have a Manson CQR anchor....

Yes I too wondered why the Danforth was not included in the survey.

When I was in the business of buying anchors the Manager of the chandler branch said if you want to set up your yacht for cruising around Australia you'll have to get yourself a 100lb Admiralty Pattern anchor as well as the Danforth and CQR. When I objected he stood firm and said they were not available off the shelf but I could no doubt get one made up by Swarbrick who makes them up for the Australian Navy.

Clive

 

[Neeves]

I cannot recall the exact detail but our Manson CQR copy was, I think, embossed 40lb it weighed 50lb (how many weigh their anchor?) - when I pointed this out to the then MD of Manson - he laughed and said I was getting a bonus. Where the extra weight was, I have no idea - but it had a terrible propensity to drag. It now sits, gathering dust, in my workshop.

But if your Manson CQR copy works - stick with it. If you have doubts look around, there are many alternatives and as many opinions

If one insists on anchoring in weed, or particularly kelp, then a fishermans is undoubtedly the only anchor that will, possibly, work. But there are so many alternative locations, and weed in anchorages is usually well documented - so though I would accept the premise - its a weight penalty that we are not prepared to consider - and dec ent sized fishermans would be a nightmare to retrieve by hand.

Jonathan

 

[coopec]

Jonathan

"I cannot recall the exact detail but our Manson CQR copy was, I think, embossed 40lb it weighed 50lb (how many weigh their anchor?)"

I just weighed my Manson: it is embossed 60lb and weighs 60lb.

"But if your Manson CQR copy works - stick with it".

I suppose a lot depends on the rode as well. (I have 80M of 3/8 in chain)

I do have a hefty winch (I couldn't handle it otherwise)

Clive

 

[Neeves]

Jonathan

"I cannot recall the exact detail but our Manson CQR copy was, I think, embossed 40lb it weighed 50lb (how many weigh their anchor?)"

I just weighed my Manson: it is embossed 60lb and weighs 60lb.

"But if your Manson CQR copy works - stick with it".

I suppose a lot depends on the rode as well. (I have 80M of 3/8 in chain)

I do have a hefty winch (I couldn't handle it otherwise)

Clive

3/8th" chain would be most unusual in Oz, maybe you mean 10mm - which, with a 60lb anchor, would be more than handful to retrieve by hand. But the chain will have no impact on the hold of the anchor - the chain is there to connect the anchor (that should hold the yacht) with the yacht. If you think you are relying on the chain - consider another anchor.

Jonathan

For some reason the post was posted twice, hence the deletion - but I'm on the Mekong and maybe that has something to do with it

 

[EdWingfield]

I vote for Fortress. But I cannot record my vote.

 

[Solent sailer]

We a CQR on our last boat, once set it never gave any problems but it had lots of problems with weed, we replaced it with a Rocna as the CQR had badly corroded. The Rocna set very much faster in more conditions and when we upgraded the boat we fitted a new Rocna. I suspect most of the new generation anchors are similar (with small differences depending on ground conditions) but I can only comment on the Rocna and to some extent on the Delta that came with our new boat and we replaced as we didn't feel it was big enough, Delta seem to size there anchors one size smaller to any other manufacturers, great for lunch stops but I like to sleep at night!

 

[coopec]

3/8th" chain would be most unusual in Oz, maybe you mean 10mm - which, with a 60lb anchor, would be more than handful to retrieve by hand. But the chain will have no impact on the hold of the anchor - the chain is there to connect the anchor (that should hold the yacht) with the yacht. If you think you are relying on the chain - consider another anchor.

Jonathan

Whitworth's sell their anchor chain as:
Heavy galvanised proof coil chain.
10mm (3/8")
Galvanised chain
General link

Agree " with a 60lb anchor, would be more than handful to retrieve by hand" But as I've pointed out "I do have a hefty winch (I couldn't handle it otherwise)"

As far as chain anchor rode is concerned I believe:

"With many common anchors, such as the CQR (Plow) or Danforth, the use of chain is essential, for they are designed to function only with a horizontal pull on the shank. They cannot tolerate any uplift and must be well bedded in before any tension is exerted on the anchor rode.
AND
This low angle of pull caused by the catenary, is only good when the anchor is under no tension or very little tension, or when a scope of 10:1 is laid out, but it serves to embed the anchor initially before any real tension is applied.

Clive

 

[duncan99210]

You say that your CQR was of "indeterminate origin". Does that mean that it, like many others, was not an actual CQR, but a copy? A genuine CQR leaves you in no doubts about its origin, and it's a shame when cheap copies of CQRs which don't perform well, damage the reputation of the genuine article. I don't now have a CQR, but happily relied on one for 30 years.

I've no idea if it was a copy or genuine and have even less interest in trying to find out. It now lies at the bottom of San Carles marina where it fell after being left unsecured on the bow during a windy night..... The wretched thing didn't work, was difficult to set and had a nasty tendency to come out in a blow. It simply wasn't up to the job of holding the boat in anything above a light wind.
I suspect that it was the anchor supplied with boat when new and was a CQRish rather than a genuine one. However, it doesn't make any difference to me. It looked like a CQR, failed to set like a CQR and wouldn't reset like a CQR: therefore it had to go.

 

[NormanS]

I've no idea if it was a copy or genuine and have even less interest in trying to find out. It now lies at the bottom of San Carles marina where it fell after being left unsecured on the bow during a windy night..... The wretched thing didn't work, was difficult to set and had a nasty tendency to come out in a blow. It simply wasn't up to the job of holding the boat in anything above a light wind.
I suspect that it was the anchor supplied with boat when new and was a CQRish rather than a genuine one. However, it doesn't make any difference to me. It looked like a CQR, failed to set like a CQR and wouldn't reset like a CQR: therefore it had to go.

Ah! So it was a paper anchor, and it blew overboard in the wind. That would certainly explain why it didn't work very well, and your dislike of it.

 

[Richard10002]

At Seamark Nunn, a new 20kg Rocna is £475, a 20kg Manson Supreme is £400, and a new 20kg genuine CQR is £358..... I wouldn't buy the CQR.

I can see how the modern anchor design is bound to work better than a CQR, copy or original.

 

[Neeves]

Jonathan

Whitworth's sell their anchor chain as:
Heavy galvanised proof coil chain.
10mm (3/8")
Galvanised chain
General link

Agree " with a 60lb anchor, would be more than handful to retrieve by hand" But as I've pointed out "I do have a hefty winch (I couldn't handle it otherwise)"

As far as chain anchor rode is concerned I believe:

"With many common anchors, such as the CQR (Plow) or Danforth, the use of chain is essential, for they are designed to function only with a horizontal pull on the shank. They cannot tolerate any uplift and must be well bedded in before any tension is exerted on the anchor rode.
AND
This low angle of pull caused by the catenary, is only good when the anchor is under no tension or very little tension, or when a scope of 10:1 is laid out, but it serves to embed the anchor initially before any real tension is applied.

Clive

I stand to be corrected but Proof Coil is an American term and chain cannot be both 10mm (Din/ISO) and 3/8th". 3/8th" Imperial is a different link size to 10mm metric.

You either have 3/8th" Imperial, which would be Proof Coil or its 10mm DIN or ISO (and not Proof Coil). Whitworths may well have their terminology mixed up. You might well have an Imperial gypsy - though it would be unusual in Oz, unless its an imported US vessel.

All chain should be Proof Tested, 2 x WLL (@ 4:1)

If you bought CMP Titan chain, which Whitworths stock, it could be Imperial chain, an aquaintance in Pittwater bought Titan G43 Imperial because he was under the impression it was much stronger than G40 metric, but its actually not much difference in strength - it seems stronger because G43 has a safety factor of 3:1 whereas metric is all sold with a safety factor of 4:1. The WLL look 'better' but its an arithmetic fudge. He had need to replace his gypsy.

I tested CMPs G43 (and G30) and it is well over strength and CMPs galvanising, for the chain samples I have tested, is good. They appear to make a good product. PWB, with whom they compete, are now part of Kito, who also own Peerless - and quality might have improved.

Sorry for the thread drift.

Jonathan

 

[zoidberg]

Y'see? Lots of personal opinion and little consensus....

Here's some more. I've been sailing about 50 years, in most kinds of boats with most kinds of anchors. I'll listen to anyone's honest opinion, 'cos I learn stuff that way. Even now. Especially now. My preferences ( prejudices? ) change. I developed a preference for the 'heaviest anchor I can heave around the foredeck', not the smallest I fondly hope I can get away with.

I pay attention to those with clear expertise, for example Skip Novak, who runs expedition sailboats in Patagonia - which is similar in some ways to Western Scotland, at times! There are few, I think, who would dismiss his expertise. See this Yachting Monthly video, especially from Minute 1:00/ 1:15 regarding his preferences for anchors, holding ground, and technique. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYfoki6vW-M

There's nothing 'chi-chi' about that!

For some years I sailed on a friends Rival 34, with a 35lb CQR and >200' of chain. I anchored that boat with a running moor - night, dead engine and rising gale - off the beach at Port Helen/Islay.... off Crinan.... Canna.... Loch na Druim Bhuidhe.... didn't drag. It did drag relentlessly in the very soft ooze off the pubs at Inverie ( Old Forge ), beside the Boat Harbour at Falmouth ( Chain Locker ), and Puildobhrain ( Tigh-an-Truish ). Now, is the common factor the boat, the pub..... or the ooze?

I changed my prejudice when I delivered an Oyster to Palma. It had two of the largest Fortress hooks available. On a 'money no object' boat, I reasoned those alloy Fortresses had to have something going for them. So also did the canny harbourmaster at Tresco, who kindly offered to lift my Fx-16 using his launch. We were both impressed!

So maybe size isn't everything....

And, a conclusion which remains quite firm. If your anchor doesn't hold, maybe it's not the anchor.

 

[vyv_cox]

For info, during a similar discussion on the facebook anchoring page, Skip Novak was asked about his anchor choice. He now uses a Rocna.

 

[zoidberg]

For info, during a similar discussion on the facebook anchoring page, Skip Novak was asked about his anchor choice. He now uses a Rocna.

Hokay, hokay! You can't win on 'ere. Any one want a Danforth copy... or two....?

Er, what's the Name of that FB group referenced above? My 'search skills' aren't up to the job ( like most of the rest of me )

 

[coopec]

For info, during a similar discussion on the facebook anchoring page, Skip Novak was asked about his anchor choice. He now uses a Rocna.

I reckon it is not much good asking a w/e sailor what his choice is because it is unlikely they would have experience in all conditions.

But when someone like Skip Novak says his choice is Rocna you have to stop and listen. Also someone like Steve Dashew:
"As a real world example, Steve Dashew * uses a Rocna 110 on his 84' powerboat Wind Horse. Our recommendation for this boat is a Rocna 70. However, Dashew routinely anchors in tight and non-ideal anchorages, and reports his Rocna perfectly secure at scope as low as 2:1."

* (May 1, 2006 - Steve Dashew found his sea legs early. ..... printed six books based on their vast cruising experiences)