jimi
Well-known member
If I had a pound for every post on this thread I'd have a bluidy heavy anchor!
Anchors. I hate to do this but...
- Thread starter Twister_Ken
- Start date
- Status
Djbangi
New member
records
Jimi,
How do you have time to sail? I have difficulty keeping up to date and I'm a babe in arms alongside you! Your post numbers are impressive. And I apologise, I had not realised I stole the number 700 slot.
Is there are record, and even better - a prize of a bottle of decent whisky!, for the longest thread, or the highest number of posts - or do we have a long way to go?
As I implied I'm a neophyte so do not know how long 'long' is!
Jimi,
How do you have time to sail? I have difficulty keeping up to date and I'm a babe in arms alongside you! Your post numbers are impressive. And I apologise, I had not realised I stole the number 700 slot.
Is there are record, and even better - a prize of a bottle of decent whisky!, for the longest thread, or the highest number of posts - or do we have a long way to go?
As I implied I'm a neophyte so do not know how long 'long' is!
jimi
Well-known member
If you look at the join date you'll see I've had 10 years worth of postings!
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Och - wee Jum is chust a neophyte.
idpnd
Member
RINA is no Lloyds, can't see any reason why anyone would want a certification noone's ever heard about - unless it's particularly affordable or easy to get
stevenpolgar
New member
Rocna and Holdfast
I am very well aware of Rocna/Holdfast Claims about their Rina certification in China . Its probably not worth the paper its written on !
Maybe Rocna/Holdfast should bear all and be truthfull in what they have done to their suppliers and manufacturers, how many of them are taking them to court to get paid?
I was a supplier and i am very well aware of their falsehoods in relation to materials and certifications.
I am very well aware of Rocna/Holdfast Claims about their Rina certification in China . Its probably not worth the paper its written on !
Maybe Rocna/Holdfast should bear all and be truthfull in what they have done to their suppliers and manufacturers, how many of them are taking them to court to get paid?
I was a supplier and i am very well aware of their falsehoods in relation to materials and certifications.
Rocna
New member
Hi again,
I haven’t been meaning to avoid you all, but I’ve been travelling for the last week which kept me pretty busy.
Some answers to the many questions:
Hi idnpd. Craig has already been on the forums and confirmed that he purchased this domain (which had expired) prior to Alain Poiraud’s death. Since Craig isn’t a Rocna employee and he’s redirected the link to his father’s personal website, there’s unfortunately nothing we can do this about this.
We do take all of the comments regarding the website content on board though, and we commit to reviewing the content and changing anything that comes across as unfairly negative/biased. We’ll need some time for this – we’re a small team and we outsource all our technical work, but we will do it.
At the same time, we hope there are people who appreciate that we’ve also gone out of our way to provide a useful resource in the form of our knowledgebase, which covers all aspects of anchoring.
Hi Rigger, we’re in communication with Craig about these matters and taking them seriously. You will see some changes, but it’s not an overnight process.
You’re right, and now that we have a clear example of the damage that’s been done here we’re able to act. However, the agreement is not going to change and Craig will continue to exercise his right to use the Rocna.co.nz email
Clarifying RINA certification
I've seen some confusion around what our RINA certification means, which is understandable as it’s not straight forward. I'm more than happy to clarify the process and where we’re at with it.
There are two types of certification offered:
1) For the design of the anchor itself, which involves seabed testing and
2) For the facility that it’s manufactured in, which involves proof load testing, welding testing and material testing.
We’ve completed the seabed testing which proved that the design of the Rocna Original meets RINA’s requirements for Super High Holding Power. We have a statement from RINA that confirms this, but because we’re also pursuing certification of our manufacturing facility at the same time, we won’t receive the final certificate until this process is also completed. (Until then, the Rocna Original is considered classified to SHHP)
Certification of the facility isn’t far away, as proof load testing, material testing and welding testing have been completed by respected organizations such as SGS on behalf of RINA and have met or exceeded their requirements. This information is now being collated and coordinated by RINA and we’re waiting for the final certificates to be issued. I'll be more than happy to make the certificates public once we receive them. In the meantime, I've attached the statement that confirms we meet the requirements for SHHP.
RINA certification is a very thorough and drawn out process (not to mention expensive), and shouldn’t be taken lightly.
Steel quality
Our specifications require high tensile steel and RINA tests have confirmed the material used to produce Rocna anchors meets our specifications.
In addition to this, we do tests with our own people to further validate the ongoing use of correct materials.
Steve Bambury
CEO
I haven’t been meaning to avoid you all, but I’ve been travelling for the last week which kept me pretty busy.
Some answers to the many questions:
Hi idnpd. Craig has already been on the forums and confirmed that he purchased this domain (which had expired) prior to Alain Poiraud’s death. Since Craig isn’t a Rocna employee and he’s redirected the link to his father’s personal website, there’s unfortunately nothing we can do this about this.
We do take all of the comments regarding the website content on board though, and we commit to reviewing the content and changing anything that comes across as unfairly negative/biased. We’ll need some time for this – we’re a small team and we outsource all our technical work, but we will do it.
At the same time, we hope there are people who appreciate that we’ve also gone out of our way to provide a useful resource in the form of our knowledgebase, which covers all aspects of anchoring.
Hi Rigger, we’re in communication with Craig about these matters and taking them seriously. You will see some changes, but it’s not an overnight process.
You’re right, and now that we have a clear example of the damage that’s been done here we’re able to act. However, the agreement is not going to change and Craig will continue to exercise his right to use the Rocna.co.nz email
Clarifying RINA certification
I've seen some confusion around what our RINA certification means, which is understandable as it’s not straight forward. I'm more than happy to clarify the process and where we’re at with it.
There are two types of certification offered:
1) For the design of the anchor itself, which involves seabed testing and
2) For the facility that it’s manufactured in, which involves proof load testing, welding testing and material testing.
We’ve completed the seabed testing which proved that the design of the Rocna Original meets RINA’s requirements for Super High Holding Power. We have a statement from RINA that confirms this, but because we’re also pursuing certification of our manufacturing facility at the same time, we won’t receive the final certificate until this process is also completed. (Until then, the Rocna Original is considered classified to SHHP)
Certification of the facility isn’t far away, as proof load testing, material testing and welding testing have been completed by respected organizations such as SGS on behalf of RINA and have met or exceeded their requirements. This information is now being collated and coordinated by RINA and we’re waiting for the final certificates to be issued. I'll be more than happy to make the certificates public once we receive them. In the meantime, I've attached the statement that confirms we meet the requirements for SHHP.
RINA certification is a very thorough and drawn out process (not to mention expensive), and shouldn’t be taken lightly.
Steel quality
Our specifications require high tensile steel and RINA tests have confirmed the material used to produce Rocna anchors meets our specifications.
In addition to this, we do tests with our own people to further validate the ongoing use of correct materials.
Steve Bambury
CEO
CONGO
Member
Anchor steel quality
You guys ready for a Tusunami? check out the last page on anything sailing.
Rex
Anchor Right Australia.
You guys ready for a Tusunami? check out the last page on anything sailing.
Rex
Anchor Right Australia.
GrantKing
New member
That should put a smile on your face Rex.
How do you see the legal implications playing out now?
CONGO
Member
Yea Grant,
It may put a smile on my face but I feel for all of those that have purchased those rickety things thinking they were getting the quality they were lead to believe.
If all of what we are hearing to be true the Ifor one will feel no sorrow for those involved.
Regards
Rex.
Anchor Right Australia.
It may put a smile on my face but I feel for all of those that have purchased those rickety things thinking they were getting the quality they were lead to believe.
If all of what we are hearing to be true the Ifor one will feel no sorrow for those involved.
Regards
Rex.
Anchor Right Australia.
Rigger Mortice
N/A
To save peeps from looking it up these are the results of tests on a Ronca which have been posting on AS.
Results of Charpy testing so far
shank: 6 Rockwell C
blade: 4 Rockwell C
Low carbon steel with unusual levels of chromium, no evidence of Q&T
Bisalloy 800 has a hardness of approx 25 Rockwell C specified on their data sheet on their website.
Further more invasive testing will now be carried out to determin the material chemical structure and identify the exact grade of metal used.
shank: 6 Rockwell C
blade: 4 Rockwell C
Low carbon steel with unusual levels of chromium, no evidence of Q&T
Bisalloy 800 has a hardness of approx 25 Rockwell C specified on their data sheet on their website.
Further more invasive testing will now be carried out to determin the material chemical structure and identify the exact grade of metal used.
Djbangi
New member
Rocna Holdfast etc
It seems the higher moral ground is getting quite busy.
And if you go back to Anything Sailing, you will find some disquieting news on Classification Society certification.
We had been assured by the CEO, and I now understand the son of the owner of Holdfast, Steve Bambury that he had clipped Craig Smith's wings. Sadly Steve did not make clear, or sufficiently underline, that Craig and his Dad own the Ronca website. So though Craig might not be active on this forum he does appear on others and is still therefore 'affiliated' with Rocna. In fact Craig is still the public face of Rocna and until that changes he has every rtight to remain affiliated. One would assume that Steve B would have read the website and would have been well aware of the discrepancy between reality, of say certification, and what was being said. Equally one would assume that Steve B was well aware of statements of Craig regarding steel quality used by Rocna and the apparently growing discrepancy between what was being said and what was being used.
I also recall Craig spouting on about the difficulty of cutting Hi Tensile steels (and, as usual, being critical of a competitor) - which as I suggested earlier was technology that could be learnt from the Bisalloy website, as it seems that Craig could not have learnt it first hand, because they do not use Q&T 800, Hi tensile steels.
Despite the growing volume of information, most provided as factual, that has been published by Rocna and or Craig (as the Anchor Smith) and or Steve Bambury there is a growing gap between what they have told us and what is being exposed now yet still there are individuals and companies (agents and distributors) who are quite happy to make as much money, at our expense, as possible.
Most yachtsmen do not read Forums and other than word of mouth there is little evidence that the developing saga is widely known. It will only take one anchor to fail and the distributors might wish they had taken the 'higher moral ground' much, much earlier.
It was a brilliant marketing move to latch onto any forum that threw up the word 'Anchor'. It must have been a full time occupation, but so successful. How could they have been so stupid, arrogant and eventually dishonest to think they could get away with the deception?
It seems the higher moral ground is getting quite busy.
And if you go back to Anything Sailing, you will find some disquieting news on Classification Society certification.
We had been assured by the CEO, and I now understand the son of the owner of Holdfast, Steve Bambury that he had clipped Craig Smith's wings. Sadly Steve did not make clear, or sufficiently underline, that Craig and his Dad own the Ronca website. So though Craig might not be active on this forum he does appear on others and is still therefore 'affiliated' with Rocna. In fact Craig is still the public face of Rocna and until that changes he has every rtight to remain affiliated. One would assume that Steve B would have read the website and would have been well aware of the discrepancy between reality, of say certification, and what was being said. Equally one would assume that Steve B was well aware of statements of Craig regarding steel quality used by Rocna and the apparently growing discrepancy between what was being said and what was being used.
I also recall Craig spouting on about the difficulty of cutting Hi Tensile steels (and, as usual, being critical of a competitor) - which as I suggested earlier was technology that could be learnt from the Bisalloy website, as it seems that Craig could not have learnt it first hand, because they do not use Q&T 800, Hi tensile steels.
Despite the growing volume of information, most provided as factual, that has been published by Rocna and or Craig (as the Anchor Smith) and or Steve Bambury there is a growing gap between what they have told us and what is being exposed now yet still there are individuals and companies (agents and distributors) who are quite happy to make as much money, at our expense, as possible.
Most yachtsmen do not read Forums and other than word of mouth there is little evidence that the developing saga is widely known. It will only take one anchor to fail and the distributors might wish they had taken the 'higher moral ground' much, much earlier.
It was a brilliant marketing move to latch onto any forum that threw up the word 'Anchor'. It must have been a full time occupation, but so successful. How could they have been so stupid, arrogant and eventually dishonest to think they could get away with the deception?
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
The Anything Sailing thread referred to by Congo, above, is at:
http://www.anything-sailing.com/showthread.php/7877-Manson-vs.-Rocna
Scroll to the end and you'll find that one unhappy Rocna owner has taken his Rocna anchor into a testing lab for the metal used to be analysed.
It appears not to be manufactured from the steel that Rocna claim is used, but from something much less suitable. Something with hardness numbers of 4 and 6, not 25, which is what it should be if actually made from the stuff that Rocna advertise.
Talk now of legal action.
http://www.anything-sailing.com/showthread.php/7877-Manson-vs.-Rocna
Scroll to the end and you'll find that one unhappy Rocna owner has taken his Rocna anchor into a testing lab for the metal used to be analysed.
It appears not to be manufactured from the steel that Rocna claim is used, but from something much less suitable. Something with hardness numbers of 4 and 6, not 25, which is what it should be if actually made from the stuff that Rocna advertise.
Talk now of legal action.
Djbangi
New member
return product
Much depends on why you buy an anchor.
Personally we use it as a means to secure, what is an expensive piece of plastic and metal (the mast etc) and ourselves, in a safe place. So we think of it as a security device. We researched our anchor wardrobe and bought on the basis of manufacturers data. We have not been disappointed either with performance and no-one, other than Rocna/Anchorsmith/Steve (and a few of their admirers and supporters) have suggested we made an incorrect decision. But if I had purchased on the basis of information from the manufacturer or affiilated agents, including the distributors, and then found I had been taken for a ride I would be down at the chandlers door tomorrow.
Anchors are not at the top of the price list for safety, or must have items, but if I had a safety harness that did not comply with advertised information, or a fire extinguisher, or a liferaft, EPIRB - or anything - I would be in the queue to get my money back.
We like to sail to places that are fairly wild and we need to sleep safely. In some locations we visit the only access is light plane or yacht and locally if the winds drop below 20 knots in summer - its a good day - so when the grandchildren fly in there are no compromises. We were offered a Rocna, free for a long term test - free product comes with strings and we never guessed the security ramifications of Craig's offer.
Chinese Rocna's have the product details cast into the fluke plate (NZ production had a sticky label) - take it back tomorrow (unless of course Steve has returned from Mars and assures you of quality - because currently you simply do not know, and if you believe Steve maybe you should buy lottery tickets). If you have a NZ Rocna, no-one knows of quality - but you can decide whether its important and whether loyalty lies with Steve and Craig or you and the family.
And if you think this is hysteria - possibly but I'd rather be hysterical than have the grandchildren put off sailing (and their grandfather) for the rest of their lives.
Hoping its dry when you queue up
Much depends on why you buy an anchor.
Personally we use it as a means to secure, what is an expensive piece of plastic and metal (the mast etc) and ourselves, in a safe place. So we think of it as a security device. We researched our anchor wardrobe and bought on the basis of manufacturers data. We have not been disappointed either with performance and no-one, other than Rocna/Anchorsmith/Steve (and a few of their admirers and supporters) have suggested we made an incorrect decision. But if I had purchased on the basis of information from the manufacturer or affiilated agents, including the distributors, and then found I had been taken for a ride I would be down at the chandlers door tomorrow.
Anchors are not at the top of the price list for safety, or must have items, but if I had a safety harness that did not comply with advertised information, or a fire extinguisher, or a liferaft, EPIRB - or anything - I would be in the queue to get my money back.
We like to sail to places that are fairly wild and we need to sleep safely. In some locations we visit the only access is light plane or yacht and locally if the winds drop below 20 knots in summer - its a good day - so when the grandchildren fly in there are no compromises. We were offered a Rocna, free for a long term test - free product comes with strings and we never guessed the security ramifications of Craig's offer.
Chinese Rocna's have the product details cast into the fluke plate (NZ production had a sticky label) - take it back tomorrow (unless of course Steve has returned from Mars and assures you of quality - because currently you simply do not know, and if you believe Steve maybe you should buy lottery tickets). If you have a NZ Rocna, no-one knows of quality - but you can decide whether its important and whether loyalty lies with Steve and Craig or you and the family.
And if you think this is hysteria - possibly but I'd rather be hysterical than have the grandchildren put off sailing (and their grandfather) for the rest of their lives.
Hoping its dry when you queue up
Djbangi
New member
Steve's return from Mars
I am pleased to see that whatever it is that that keeps you busy has had a moments peace to let you address the concerns of past customers. We are really honoured.
I note that the original, NZ, Rocna has been passed as SHHP, which must be a great relief for you previous customers. What about the poor buggers who have invested in the Chinese model, the one you have invested so much time and money in - are we to believe we need wait for a new series of tests.
It is extraordinary that you have claimed you have put so much care and effort into the new Chinese facility - and did not bother to test the quality, are you serious. Are Rocna anchors decoration or serious safety products, please try to stop insulting our intelligence.
You mention you are using Hi Tensile steels - possibly you would care to elaborate.
We have been bombarded by your affiliated representative stating that you are using Q&T 800 and/or Bisplate 80. Can you confirm that these are the qualities (in case you do not know one is a sort of generic name the other a brand name) that were used for the NZ production, Canadian production and the new Chinese production.
I am pleased to see that whatever it is that that keeps you busy has had a moments peace to let you address the concerns of past customers. We are really honoured.
I note that the original, NZ, Rocna has been passed as SHHP, which must be a great relief for you previous customers. What about the poor buggers who have invested in the Chinese model, the one you have invested so much time and money in - are we to believe we need wait for a new series of tests.
It is extraordinary that you have claimed you have put so much care and effort into the new Chinese facility - and did not bother to test the quality, are you serious. Are Rocna anchors decoration or serious safety products, please try to stop insulting our intelligence.
You mention you are using Hi Tensile steels - possibly you would care to elaborate.
We have been bombarded by your affiliated representative stating that you are using Q&T 800 and/or Bisplate 80. Can you confirm that these are the qualities (in case you do not know one is a sort of generic name the other a brand name) that were used for the NZ production, Canadian production and the new Chinese production.
Rocna
New member
I said it over at Anything Sailing and I'll say it again here - what has been up until now a heated discussion just turned into a defamation case thanks to whaleboy.
Let me unequivocally state here that I reject his test results outright. You may have missed it, but we answered the questions around our RINA certification earlier in the day (the post has only just been cleared by the moderators) – see post 706.
We’ve done extensive testing of our materials and nothing we’ve seen has come remotely close to the low levels that whaleboy claims to have found. I simply can’t see how it can happen.
What we want to know is - who is whaleboy? He’s been a member of Anything Sailing only since the 19th of March, and therefore has no track record or credibility to draw upon. He is known to us, however. He got in contact with us directly towards the end of last year with outlandish claims and accusations, and yet when we tried to discuss them further and resolve them for him, he wasn’t interested. And then again just recently, he emailed West Marine to complain about us and his Rocna anchor, and yet when a refund was offered to him he didn’t take up the offer, preferring instead to destroy the anchor at his own cost to carry out testing.
I’m highly suspicious that whaleboy is a genuine Rocna customer, and in the unlikely event that he is, I simply cannot understand why he has refused to accept our genuine offers to assist and chooses instead to continually discredit us with no intention to actually resolve his ‘problems’.
Steve Bambury
CEO
Let me unequivocally state here that I reject his test results outright. You may have missed it, but we answered the questions around our RINA certification earlier in the day (the post has only just been cleared by the moderators) – see post 706.
We’ve done extensive testing of our materials and nothing we’ve seen has come remotely close to the low levels that whaleboy claims to have found. I simply can’t see how it can happen.
What we want to know is - who is whaleboy? He’s been a member of Anything Sailing only since the 19th of March, and therefore has no track record or credibility to draw upon. He is known to us, however. He got in contact with us directly towards the end of last year with outlandish claims and accusations, and yet when we tried to discuss them further and resolve them for him, he wasn’t interested. And then again just recently, he emailed West Marine to complain about us and his Rocna anchor, and yet when a refund was offered to him he didn’t take up the offer, preferring instead to destroy the anchor at his own cost to carry out testing.
I’m highly suspicious that whaleboy is a genuine Rocna customer, and in the unlikely event that he is, I simply cannot understand why he has refused to accept our genuine offers to assist and chooses instead to continually discredit us with no intention to actually resolve his ‘problems’.
Steve Bambury
CEO
Talulah
Well-known member
I had a product fail that was manufactured by a highly reputable company in America.
I contacted the company and sent the product to them.
They gave me a replacement.
My concern in returning any product that fails is that it may be hushed up by the manufacturer and the reason for the failure never gets into the public domain.
You could argue that Whaleboy was so incensed he decided it would be for the greater good if he tested the anchor himself so all could be laid out in the open. We don't know.
In my case above I have no doubt the manufacturer thoroughly investigated the cause of the failure but I will never know the result.
I contacted the company and sent the product to them.
They gave me a replacement.
My concern in returning any product that fails is that it may be hushed up by the manufacturer and the reason for the failure never gets into the public domain.
You could argue that Whaleboy was so incensed he decided it would be for the greater good if he tested the anchor himself so all could be laid out in the open. We don't know.
In my case above I have no doubt the manufacturer thoroughly investigated the cause of the failure but I will never know the result.
Brian@Fortress
New member
Defamation? Interesting Steve. What would you call the negative information that you have posted on the Rocna web site about the products of competitive anchor manufacturers......good clean fun?
As previously stated, is there another manufacturer of any other product on this planet who has taken the time, energy, effort, and web space to trash the competition as your company has?
You have heard the saying that "what goes around, comes around" and you have a hurricane headed in your direction, my friend.
Keen_Ed
Active member
If in doubt, shoot the messenger. Always a good ploy.
Not.
Not.
CONGO
Member
ROCNA,
How sweet this is, I can remember just before the launching of Rocna all those years ago we were selling many Sarca anchors into N.Z. I received an email then from a much younger Mr. C he presented to me via email a photo of a very bent Sarca anchor, the anchor was one thing the abuse was another, never in my life had I had such a serving, just as we are now hearing and I love it, Mr. C didn’t want his money back, M r C didn’t want the anchor replaced.
Mr. C wanted me to take the Sarca anchor of the market as it was dangerous.
If I didn’t he would make sure every retailer heard about our “shoddy anchors”, true to his word within a week we were receiving emails from dealers Re Mr. C claims, Mr. C then claimed he had nothing to do with any anchor manufacturer, no axe to grind just wanted a dangerous anchor of the market.
I was left reeling as to who this guy was and what the hell is his agenda, the rest is history, shortly after his rant the Rocna anchor was launched and all was revealed.
Steve just maybe you are right , these marketing techniques are taught by someone, just maybe they were handed on to someone that has left your organization, if that is the case how do we know there are no more of them, clones of Mr. C? Oh yes I have evidence of what I say as I still have those horrid emails, maybe you should randomly grab an anchor and have your own test done?
Anyway what I am implying is what is happening to you reeks of what Mr. C did to me. But his time maybe there is some truth in what is being revealed, maybe a few more rickety anchor owners might like to have some independent tests done on theirs. Just for conformation one way or the other you get my drift Steve.
The question I have for you, why didn’t you take up Manson’s challenge if all you say is true, without starting another war I know who would have won if the anchor entered was N.Z. built, you should have felt comfortable, with that challenge?
Hope you have a peaceful evening.
Regards
Rex
Anchor Right Australia.
How sweet this is, I can remember just before the launching of Rocna all those years ago we were selling many Sarca anchors into N.Z. I received an email then from a much younger Mr. C he presented to me via email a photo of a very bent Sarca anchor, the anchor was one thing the abuse was another, never in my life had I had such a serving, just as we are now hearing and I love it, Mr. C didn’t want his money back, M r C didn’t want the anchor replaced.
Mr. C wanted me to take the Sarca anchor of the market as it was dangerous.
If I didn’t he would make sure every retailer heard about our “shoddy anchors”, true to his word within a week we were receiving emails from dealers Re Mr. C claims, Mr. C then claimed he had nothing to do with any anchor manufacturer, no axe to grind just wanted a dangerous anchor of the market.
I was left reeling as to who this guy was and what the hell is his agenda, the rest is history, shortly after his rant the Rocna anchor was launched and all was revealed.
Steve just maybe you are right , these marketing techniques are taught by someone, just maybe they were handed on to someone that has left your organization, if that is the case how do we know there are no more of them, clones of Mr. C? Oh yes I have evidence of what I say as I still have those horrid emails, maybe you should randomly grab an anchor and have your own test done?
Anyway what I am implying is what is happening to you reeks of what Mr. C did to me. But his time maybe there is some truth in what is being revealed, maybe a few more rickety anchor owners might like to have some independent tests done on theirs. Just for conformation one way or the other you get my drift Steve.
The question I have for you, why didn’t you take up Manson’s challenge if all you say is true, without starting another war I know who would have won if the anchor entered was N.Z. built, you should have felt comfortable, with that challenge?
Hope you have a peaceful evening.
Regards
Rex
Anchor Right Australia.
- Status