Farmer Piles
Well-Known Member
Interestingly, they are all Bruce type anchors, not a new generation one amongst them.
Anchor thread
- Thread starter geem
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Farmer Piles
Well-Known Member
Just noticed the comment from NormanS. Not that I have poor attention or anything. although, Icould say that great minds think alike.
geem
Well-Known Member
Modern anchors generally have twice the hold of older anchors. They set easier and faster. Why over size something that is already twice as good?
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
It may be a Scandinavian thing although I do not know the reason. A friend's Malo has a Bruce as standard, fitted through the stem so it sits snugly but makes changing for another make of anchor almost impossible.
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
We also have friends with a Malo, they have a Bruce and canna be arsed to change for that reason
Tranona
Well-Known Member
The latest Nordship featured in this month's YM also has a Bruce deployed through the bow under the moulded in bowsprit. Like the Malo difficult to change because the whole anchoring arrangement is designed around the anchor.
Not aware of any volume producers who fit hew gen anchors as standard. They only start to appear on semi custom new boats where the owner has a say in the matter. The 4 big European builders all fit Delta as standard with self stowing rollers to suit. Epsilon would be an easy upgrade
Not aware of any volume producers who fit hew gen anchors as standard. They only start to appear on semi custom new boats where the owner has a say in the matter. The 4 big European builders all fit Delta as standard with self stowing rollers to suit. Epsilon would be an easy upgrade
BabaYaga
Well-Known Member
This type of stern anchoring does not put any requirement on the anchor to cope well with a change of direction of pull – unlike when swinging to a bow anchor.
So probably the Bruce/Claw type has become popular because it works quite well in this application.
slawosz
Well-Known Member
I would say that in Baltics there is less need to anchor. Mostly because of the lack of the tide - it makes sailing much easier, building pontoons much easier. South and east coast is not very friendly - mostly sandy beaches with several harbours, and North and West - plenty of pontoons and marinas in between of islands.
noelex
Well-Known Member
I suspect larger anchors (with correspondingly increased ultimate holding power) are often selected with the goal of minimising the chance of dragging. I have dragged over a dozen or so times and none of them were any fun, but the improved ability to anchor safely in less suitable substrates or at shorter scopes etc are also important additional benefits of a larger anchor, as well as reducing the need to swap anchor design for different substrates or to deploy multiple anchors.
There are many practical benefits for what is a small (typically less than 10%) increase in total ground tackle weight. But as always, your boat, your choice
.BabaYaga
Well-Known Member
I would agree that anchoring out is probably less attractive and therefore less practiced along much of the open coastlines of southern Baltic, but in the archipelagic regions anchors (preferably at both ends) are absolutely essential for fully enjoying these areas..
Neeves
Well-Known Member
In my statistically flawed survey of anchors in the Baltic, not a big enough sample, Bruce did reign supreme. I have other pictures, also Bruce types - the variable are the custom designed stern rollers. I saw one Spade and no other modern anchor.. The necessity for a more reliable anchor is reduced as the vessel is also secured with shore lines, a Baltic moor is a bit like a, reversed, Med moor without the tide. The seabed will be largely glacial mud, similar to the North Sea - everything points to a Bruce. If Bruce works, which it obviously does, then the chandlers will not stock modern anchors.
If you look at new yachts at any boat show they have sported a Delta for decades and I understand that the Epsilon was designed to allow it to be a direct replacement (it will fit) for a Delta. Boat builders want an easy life - so the standard is going to become Epsilon, unless it is significantly more expensive than a Delta. The exception are some French yachts which might be commissioned with a Brittany or Kobra, but this is exceptional.
If Epsilon is so much better and reliable than Delta (which is what Lewmar imply) then the need to dump the commissioning anchor is going to be reduced (as other modern anchors may be better but the difference will not be quantifiable) then the anchor makers, CMP, Spade, Anchor Right et al are going to have their work cut out to maintain sales.
One of the criteria always mentioned when people initiate threads on anchors is - does it fit, is it available in a chandler near you etc - Lewmar appear to have got it right. The exception seems to be - The Baltic (and Lewmar service that market with their Claw).
Jonathan
Tranona
Well-Known Member
I might find out about the Epsilon this coming season as I have just bought one!. 10kg for my 5.5 tonne 10m boat, near the top of Lewmar's recommendation. My last 2 boats had Deltas. The first was a Bavaria 37 which I had on charter in the Ionian and came originally with a copy CQR which I found poor in setting so when we took it out of charter replaced with a 16kg Delta which was much better. The second boat a 33 came with a 10kg Delta even though it was the same displacement and LWL as the 37. I anchored a lot with that along the south coast and never had any problems with setting or dragging, but our local anchorages have good holding - in fact the biggest problem is breaking them out!. I remember many years ago being storm bound in Newtown River IOW in a summer gale that lasted 3 days with the anchor in the mud one side of the creek and at low tide sitting on the mud the other side. Really hard work getting the 25lb CQR out when the wind dropped enough to escape!
Pretty sure the Epsilon on 6mm chain will work OK. It stows on the bow roller on the side of the bow sprit reasonably well, but its high, short shank does not sit down in deck so will need a strop to retain it. The original anchor was a 35lb CQR copy which will join my collection of discarded anchors and propellers as a garden ornament.
Pretty sure the Epsilon on 6mm chain will work OK. It stows on the bow roller on the side of the bow sprit reasonably well, but its high, short shank does not sit down in deck so will need a strop to retain it. The original anchor was a 35lb CQR copy which will join my collection of discarded anchors and propellers as a garden ornament.
BabaYaga
Well-Known Member
Anchoring styles and equipment are far less uniform up here than you make it sound.
Rocna and Vulcan and Fortress are all on offer at the two major chandlery chains, alongside with Delta and various Bruce/Claw style anchors.
And I just noticed that Hallberg Rassy now seem to equip some of their new models with Ultra anchors (judging by their sales literature).
Besides, anchoring from bow is by no means uncommon nowadays:
MathiasW
Well-Known Member
Part of this is nationalistic preferences - you see more Spade anchors on French boats and more Bugels on Germans boat - and Brittany anchors also on French boats. Spade on French boats is logical - but why German yachts carry Bugels, in preference to Rocna, Spade, Supreme, Excel etc carries nationalistic pride too far (same with Brittany) - but maybe Germans are not technically or excellence focussed (and BMW and Mercedes are simple aberrations).
But there again maybe I have misjudged Bugels and similarly those who carry Brittany anchors don't have sheets nor use spinnakers......
Jonathan
Oh well, I am German and I carry three Spade anchors on board, and no Bügel at all...
In Germany you see many Delta, QCRs, Bruce, and indeed Bügel.
The biggest followship I have with my www.anchorchaincalculator.com app is in fact German speaking: Germany, Swiss, and Austria. They make up for 2/3. So, to me, they seem rather interested in a technical approach to matters...
Sorry, couldn't resist, Mathias
Zing
Well-Known Member
Why are they all bunched together when the bigger bay is empty?Anchoring styles and equipment are far less uniform up here than you make it sound.
Rocna and Vulcan and Fortress are all on offer at the two major chandlery chains, alongside with Delta and various Bruce/Claw style anchors.
And I just noticed that Hallberg Rassy now seem to equip some of their new models with Ultra anchors (judging by their sales literature).
Besides, anchoring from bow is by no means uncommon nowadays:
Neeves
Well-Known Member
There is nothing like a bit of provocation to engender a valuable response.
Welcome back.
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-Known Member
I suspect larger anchors (with correspondingly increased ultimate holding power) are often selected with the goal of minimising the chance of dragging. I have dragged over a dozen or so times and none of them were any fun, but the improved ability to anchor safely in less suitable substrates or at shorter scopes etc are also important additional benefits of a larger anchor, as well as reducing the need to swap anchor design for different substrates or to deploy multiple anchors.
There are many practical benefits for what is a small (typically less than 10%) increase in total ground tackle weight. But as always, your boat, your choice
You have championed your anchor and recommend oversizing the anchor, even a small amount (10%). The builder of your yacht (which might be termed an 'expedition' yacht) commented that they made alterations (maybe minor) to accomodate your desire for a bigger anchor. This suggests that other expedition yachts, made by the same builder, commonly use smaller anchors (or of a different design).
Personally I'm not sure that anyone, even people who test, (given the variability of seabeds even 1 metre distant) can detect a difference in performance based on a 10% weight difference. I note that the size of anchor for your size of yacht recommended by Rocna would be around 33kg - but your anchor weighs over 50kgs
But you now say you have dragged 'over a dozen times' which to me - seems a lot. It maybe of course you dragged before the current yacht and before you used your current anchor - but your previous anchor was a Rocna? I know you live aboard and only anchor - but Geem, NormanS, ourselves and others live aboard, us for 3 month stretches and we don't drag. NormanS advises that often if severe winds are forecast - he has no choice - there are no safer anchorage within sailing distance - he does not mention dragging. I stand to be corrected but Geem 'escaped' the Scilly storm (on his way to the Caribbean) - no dragging.
It would be invaluable if you can define (and I know it can be difficult to point a finger - but from 'over a dozen times' there might be a pattern) why you dragged - it would be educational. You have that much championed, oversized, anchor. I think there is nothing special about your chain and you do use a snubber (though what size we don't know) - what went wrong?
If the issue was questionable seabeds - a definition of questionable or marginal seabeds would be interesting.
Jonathan
doug748
Well-Known Member
After further scholarship I claim the 10 bob prize for tracing the source of that everyday modern miracle, that we are often told about: the bit of rope on the end of an anchor rode to cope with shock loads. AKA an anchor spring.
We learn that eminent Victorian R T McMullen recommended lying to a length of bass line in rough water in order to tame the effects of waves. It - Affords comfortable riding due to it's elasticity.
Further, Francis Cooke:
" ...... If you feel the warp used as a cable may carry away, you can effect a compromise by riding to your cable backed with a rope spring. To do this haul in about a third of the riding scope and bend a stout bass warp to the cable with a rolling hitch or some other that will not slip. Then pay out the full scope again and make fast the warp to the mast. Having done this slack the chain a bit more till the yacht is rides to the rope. By these means you will secure the benefit of the spring and yet have the chain cable in reserve should the rope break. "
Seamanship for Yachtsmen. 1923.
.
Roberto
Well-Known Member
So it took one century: conservative who? sailors?
NormanS
Well-Known Member
By various means, I don't get shock loads when anchored. However, a stretchy snubber is a good alternative to chain in shallow water, where there is little or no catenary.
