Anchor thread

[Neeves]

Viewing the FB page Anchoring and Anchorages, it is interesting to observe that USA and European members are often poles apart when discussing anchor choice and techniques. They seem to favour massively oversized anchors as first choice, refuse to accept proven facts on chain weight and catenary and seem reluctant to use snubbers.

You do not need to go back many years, less than 10 - and it was the same on YBW, there are still some, many here, who advocate heavy chain. There are still many here who believe "Bigger is Better' in terms of anchors. Go into many anchorages and you will find few snubbers and most are 3m long. I vaguely recall a member here had a rather nifty yacht built and the bow gear was specially altered, and mentioned by the yacht builder, to accept a bigger anchor.

The mantra was not so long ago,' check the anchor makers recommendation - and go one size bigger'.

It is a pleasure to think times have changed - at least here (YBW).


But to return to Geems original post - I marvel at the Fortress anchors on bow rollers in America - they are never seen in Europe, at all. This is not to say they are not carried - just they are not on bow rollers.

Part of this is nationalistic preferences - you see more Spade anchors on French boats and more Bugels on Germans boat - and Brittany anchors also on French boats. Spade on French boats is logical - but why German yachts carry Bugels, in preference to Rocna, Spade, Supreme, Excel etc carries nationalistic pride too far (same with Brittany) - but maybe Germans are not technically or excellence focussed (and BMW and Mercedes are simple aberrations).

But there again maybe I have misjudged Bugels and similarly those who carry Brittany anchors don't have sheets nor use spinnakers......

Much of sailing choice is emotive, think of yacht choice.... People don't necessarily buy a yacht for its sailing performance - they buy because their wife/partenr fell in love with the galley (or shower). Happy wife, happy life.

Sailing for many is about sailing - not getting there faster.

Takes all sorts. Don't knock it - their number provide the need for 'larger' production runs which reduces the cost of everyday items for us.

Jonathan

 

[RunAgroundHard]

… But to return to Geems original post - I marvel at the Fortress anchors on bow rollers in America - they are never seen in Europe, at all. …

Oh dear, such conviction. Fortress and Danforths are seen on bow rollers in Europe. In my marina, there is a RIB, a day trip boat and a lobster fishing boat, all passed on the walk to my berth. Only 1 is a Fortress the others are Danforths. I am sure I have seen more.

You were so certain as well.

 

[vyv_cox]

Oh dear, such conviction. Fortress and Danforths are seen on bow rollers in Europe. In my marina, there is a RIB, a day trip boat and a lobster fishing boat, all passed on the walk to my berth. Only 1 is a Fortress the others are Danforths. I am sure I have seen more.

You were so certain as well.

None of these is comparable with a cruising yacht whose occupants sleep aboard at anchor, possibly not moving on for several days. Greek fishing boats typically use grapnels made from rebar, doesn't mean that these are suitable for us.

 

[Tranona]

Oh dear, such conviction. Fortress and Danforths are seen on bow rollers in Europe. In my marina, there is a RIB, a day trip boat and a lobster fishing boat, all passed on the walk to my berth. Only 1 is a Fortress the others are Danforths. I am sure I have seen more.

You were so certain as well.

Danforths are still common - because there are still a lot of old boats from the 60s through to the 80s when they were often fitted to new boats because they were cheap. However also common to see them either stowed flat on deck or on special brackets on the pulpit as they are not easy to stow in bow rollers.

 

[jac]

Whilst the additional weight at the pointy end is of course a factor, has anyone actually got any real life evidence of the impact that this has, and how it compares to maybe a 200kg of dinghy, outboard, davits etc dangling off the stern?

Personally I wouldn't do it (second roller is snubber, mooring buoy etc) but i can understand that a second anchor deployable without having to lug it out of a locker and onto a bow roller would have benefits, especially if they were anchors for different seabeds. My point I guess is that with a boat, everything is a compromise and a large increase in convenience may be worth a small impact on motion

 

[Neeves]

Did you check the sterns? Scandinavians tend to use stern anchors a lot.

And have bow rollers (on the stern) - which might be called stern rollers? and commonly no bow roller. They often have a windlass in the lazarette as well.

None of these yachts had bow rollers either.










No everyone anchors off the bow, nor necessarily uses an anchor to 'anchor' (some might use shore lines).

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Whilst the additional weight at the pointy end is of course a factor, has anyone actually got any real life evidence of the impact that this has, and how it compares to maybe a 200kg of dinghy, outboard, davits etc dangling off the stern?

Personally I wouldn't do it (second roller is snubber, mooring buoy etc) but i can understand that a second anchor deployable without having to lug it out of a locker and onto a bow roller would have benefits, especially if they were anchors for different seabeds. My point I guess is that with a boat, everything is a compromise and a large increase in convenience may be worth a small impact on motion

You have a 200kg dinghy and outboard?? ...... !!

I do agree that if the anchor size recommended for your yacht is 60kg then lugging a second anchor from the bilges to deploy in a 'V' or fork arrangement would be an imposition - which is why anyone with any sense (and a big wallet, which they might need anyway to equip a yacht demanding a 60kg anchor) would have an aluminium Spade or Excel on the bow roller (and the primary might also be aluminium).

Jonathan

 

[geem]

Whilst the additional weight at the pointy end is of course a factor, has anyone actually got any real life evidence of the impact that this has, and how it compares to maybe a 200kg of dinghy, outboard, davits etc dangling off the stern?

Personally I wouldn't do it (second roller is snubber, mooring buoy etc) but i can understand that a second anchor deployable without having to lug it out of a locker and onto a bow roller would have benefits, especially if they were anchors for different seabeds. My point I guess is that with a boat, everything is a compromise and a large increase in convenience may be worth a small impact on motion

I guess it depends how you set up your boat. For short hops then it doesn't matter much about weight hanging over the bow and stern. The extra pitching and load on the boat and mast will likely be minimal as you will have chosen a benign forecast for your short hop. If you are planning a 500nm+ passage then your likelyhood of meeting poor weather increases significantly. Carrying a dinghy on davits is then not such a great idea. Having lots of weight over the bow is also not so good. On long passages our dinghy is on deck lashed down with several ratchet straps, the outboard is stowed in the aft heads, the heavy contents of the large bow locker are moved to the sail locker under the front bunk. Our two secondary anchors are aluminium. All sensible weight is removed from the ends of the boat. Even on our heavy boat the motion is improved particularly when going to windward. The bow buries less often.
Our main anchor is as recommended by the manufacturer. Not over sized. It stays on the bow roller as we may need to deploy it easily on arrival at our destination in strong winds. I wouldn't want to be mauling with a 30kg anchor on a pitching boat in the dark. I believe from my experience that moving weight out of the ends of the boat when the weather gets tough is sensible. I would never cross an ocean with the dinghy on davits

 

[jac]

You have a 200kg dinghy and outboard?? ...... !!

I do agree that if the anchor size recommended for your yacht is 60kg then lugging a second anchor from the bilges to deploy in a 'V' or fork arrangement would be an imposition - which is why anyone with any sense (and a big wallet, which they might need anyway to equip a yacht demanding a 60kg anchor) would have an aluminium Spade or Excel on the bow roller (and the primary might also be aluminium).

Jonathan

Mine are about 50kg between them but i have no Davits a 5hp 2 stroke and a zodiac V bottom inflatable

Add some davits - go up to something like 3.1 m lightweight RIB a 15hp engine, a fuel tank plus a bit of gear....

Consider also how many people fit a huge stern arch to act as Davits, antenna mount, solar panel arch combined and i suspect that even without a dinghy & OB you could get 200kg

 

[Wansworth]

Lugging about heaven anchour especially if past your prime can lead to back problems and nipped fingers

 

[Neeves]

Mine are about 50kg between them but i have no Davits a 5hp 2 stroke and a zodiac V bottom inflatable

Add some davits - go up to something like 3.1 m lightweight RIB a 15hp engine, a fuel tank plus a bit of gear....

Consider also how many people fit a huge stern arch to act as Davits, antenna mount, solar panel arch combined and i suspect that even without a dinghy & OB you could get 200kg

15hp O/B - we use a 2hp O/B and I can carry the dinghy single handed, 25kg. I've never understood the need for speed in a dinghy.

But then we are weight conscious, use 6mm chain and aluminium anchors. As said you would never have the dinghy + O/B on davits for long passages. I also cannot understand the need to use the dinghy as somewhere else to stow stuff - you have lockers for that and if they are already full - maybe you need to throw out some of the stuff in the lockers.

Weight anywhere will reduce sailing performance - just especially if in the ends.

Jonathan

 

[NormanS]

And have bow rollers (on the stern) - which might be called stern rollers? and commonly no bow roller. They often have a windlass in the lazarette as well.

None of these yachts had bow rollers either.

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No everyone anchors off the bow, nor necessarily uses an anchor to 'anchor' (some might use shore lines).

Jonathan

Mmm, I see they favour Bruce type anchors, too.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Anchors on bow rollers…. I have no bow roller, therefore no visible means of anchoring, yet I do anchor. How? Obviously it’s a miracle.

 

[geem]

15hp O/B - we use a 2hp O/B and I can carry the dinghy single handed, 25kg. I've never understood the need for speed in a dinghy.

But then we are weight conscious, use 6mm chain and aluminium anchors. As said you would never have the dinghy + O/B on davits for long passages. I also cannot understand the need to use the dinghy as somewhere else to stow stuff - you have lockers for that and if they are already full - maybe you need to throw out some of the stuff in the lockers.

Weight anywhere will reduce sailing performance - just especially if in the ends.

Jonathan

We have a 15hp engine and a 3.8m hard dinghy that nests when on passage. We wouldn't be without it. We kite surf so it's a rescue boat. It carries a couple of sets of dive gear or a couple of bikes and gets you to the destination with ease. Over here in the Caribbean 15hp is the average sized outboard. Distances are long and its windy so everywhere has a chop. Decent rib and 15hp is almost mandatory? 2hp is for making cakes?

 

[Poignard]

Deleted

 

[coopec]

Is the Bahamian Moor more prevalent in the States perhaps? Wouldn't be that odd, they'll have come down that way

I think you got it in one!



The Bahamian Moor: How to Set Two Anchors off the Bow

It surprises me that sailors (not thinking of anyone in particular) from one part of the world think their anchoring techniques are suited for waters all around the world. One guy (on a different forum) questioned why I needed all chain anchor rode. I explained that we have coral reefs/bombies that can be 30+ meters high. A friend of mine who sailed into Walcott inlet said one minute he was in 30 meters of water and within seconds he could see the bottom. Here is a chart of Walcott Inlet (Kimberley coast West Australia)

i-Boating : Free Marine Navigation Charts & Fishing Maps

Kimberley reefs the world’s tallest
Coral reef discovery off the Kimberley coast

 

[Zing]

I think it comes from a slavish respect for copying the advice and methods of the experts. The navy ships of the world for example. If they need two anchors off the bow then so must we:

 

[Koeketiene]

Anchors on bow rollers…. I have no bow roller, therefore no visible means of anchoring, yet I do anchor. How? Obviously it’s a miracle.

Well, I guess 'it depends' - size boat, weight of the anchor, rode or chain, cruising ground, availability of crew (and fitness thereof), etc...

As decrepitude advances at an ever increasing pace, I have to keep things 'easy' if I want to keep sailing (singlehanded).
Hence the fitting of a bow roller and an electric windlass.

 

[noelex]

Two anchors stored on the bow roller was the gold standard for long distance cruising boats a couple of decades ago.

Modern anchors have much greater substrate versatility so the modern interpretation is a larger single new generation anchor.

Oversizing the anchor makes up for slight deficiencies in the performance in less than ideal substrates for the chosen anchor model.

Even specifying a much larger single primary anchor, the net bow weight is much less than the combination of dual anchors and associated chain so the sailing performance is better with increased ultimate holding ability. Win win.

 

[Neeves]

Mmm, I see they favour Bruce type anchors, too.

Correct,

Most yachts had a Bruce, or copy. I was not a financial choice as stainless was also popular (which might have something to with Bruce being common - Bruce for mud and stainless is easier to clean than gal)

Jonathan