Anchor setup for serious crusing - anchor size for 25 foot, 2 tons (4500 pounds) yachts

[TNLI]

300 series stainless steel, which includes 302, 304, 316 and anything else that starts 3xx, is austenitic. The difference between them is compositional. It makes no difference, they cannot be strengthened by heat treatment. In every alloy I can think of, annealing results in the weakest form.

True, but some metals are annealed to improve the fatigue life, not the UTS figure of the metal. It's the sudden fatigure failures of far Eastern stainless that might even be below 302 that is the real danger with cheap copies, or packet swap scams that many major companies have suffered to their cost. Packet swap scams involve a person or persons in the parts depratment or shipping, opening up the boxes and swapping the contents for a cheap Chinese copy. They then sell the real item on Fleabay or do a returns deal with the Chinese company who made the junk copies.

Obviously you know far more than me about bad stainless than I do, and I made something of an error on using the word annealing rather than treatment, as that was what a learned USCG boat designer told me a few years ago about fatigue failures of Chinese rigging wire. The drum of 1 x19 316 wire looked like expensive Hasselfors wire with all the correct marking and labels. Even the associated paperwork was a perfect copy. It was used to re rig a number of local yachts, but started to strand at the terminals after only 3 months. All the yachts needed a full rig change.

What Is the Annealing Treatment for Austenitic Steels? (inoxmare.com)

Extract from link:
What is the annealing heat-treatment for stainless steels?
The process of annealing (intended for austenitic steels such as those stainless steel and duplex) is an heat-treatment for precipitation-hardening. This treatment is performed at high temperatures, usually > 1000°C. Indeed, it provides heat at a temperature between 1000 and 1100°. This ensures the annealing of the alloying elements inside of austenitic grains. Maintaining the temperature of heating should last the time required to ensure that this temperature reaches the steel piece heart. Only thanks to this stasis you can eliminate structural alterations that were caused by previous machining. Next, we expected a rapid cooling of the piece in air or water, just to prevent the precipitation of chromium that is usually between 450° and 850°.

They seem to think the production process of cheap stainless results in physical faults, (I presume that's what they mean by alterations), or scratches that concentrate surface stress. I can provide you with other links that use the word annealing in reference to improving the fatigue life, but I'm busy for the rest of the day, so can't do that until late this evening.

PS: I have sent a message to Inoxmare asking them about fatigue life, BUT there is a difference in defintion terms between what they call structural alterations from the production process, and normal fatigue life. So it might take a few Q & A's before I get a good answer, as it's the tiny cracks that can't be seen in new far Eastern stainless that is the issue. It's those cracks that can cause direct shear failures at very low torque, in addition to low fatigue life figues.

Back to replies to the OP, this is the last part of a reply from Peeves down under in Auz:
Confess I have not seen your original post, life is too short to sift though over 300 posts and 18 pages - so if you have defined your yacht - it lost in Forum mists.
I'd actually suggest you start a new thread - but this may invoke wrath

It's not too difficult to find out what you are supposed to be posting about, IT'S IN CAPITALS AT THE TOP OF EACH PAGE, and if you want to know more, just click on page 1. Just cos you can't read a title, or click on the number 1, does not mean the OP should start a new thread.

 

[vyv_cox]

True, but some metals are annealed to improve the fatigue life, not the UTS figure of the metal. It's the sudden fatigure failures of far Eastern stainless that might even be below 302 that is the real danger with cheap copies, or packet swap scams that many major companies have suffered to their cost. Packet swap scams involve a person or persons in the parts depratment or shipping, opening up the boxes and swapping the contents for a cheap Chinese copy. They then sell the real item on Fleabay or do a returns deal with the Chinese company who made the junk copies.

Obviously you know far more than me about bad stainless than I do, and I made something of an error on using the word annealing rather than treatment, as that was what a learned USCG boat designer told me a few years ago about fatigue failures of Chinese rigging wire. The drum of 1 x19 316 wire looked like expensive Hasselfors wire with all the correct marking and labels. Even the associated paperwork was a perfect copy. It was used to re rig a number of local yachts, but started to strand at the terminals after only 3 months. All the yachts needed a full rig change.

What Is the Annealing Treatment for Austenitic Steels? (inoxmare.com)

Extract from link:
What is the annealing heat-treatment for stainless steels?
The process of annealing (intended for austenitic steels such as those stainless steel and duplex) is an heat-treatment for precipitation-hardening. This treatment is performed at high temperatures, usually > 1000°C. Indeed, it provides heat at a temperature between 1000 and 1100°. This ensures the annealing of the alloying elements inside of austenitic grains. Maintaining the temperature of heating should last the time required to ensure that this temperature reaches the steel piece heart. Only thanks to this stasis you can eliminate structural alterations that were caused by previous machining. Next, we expected a rapid cooling of the piece in air or water, just to prevent the precipitation of chromium that is usually between 450° and 850°.

They seem to think the production process of cheap stainless results in physical faults, (I presume that's what they mean by alterations), or scratches that concentrate surface stress. I can provide you with other links that use the word annealing in reference to improving the fatigue life, but I'm busy for the rest of the day, so can't do that until late this evening.

PS: I have sent a message to Inoxmare asking them about fatigue life, BUT there is a difference in defintion terms between what they call structural alterations from the production process, and normal fatigue life. So it might take a few Q & A's before I get a good answer, as it's the tiny cracks that can't be seen in new far Eastern stainless that is the issue. It's those cracks that can cause direct shear failures at very low torque, in addition to low fatigue life figues.

The link extract you are quoting from is somewhat confused. Precipitation hardening steels such as 17/4 PH are subjected to a two-stage heat treatment at lower temperatures than described although in some cases they may be annealed first.

Annealing, also as it describes, involves raising the temperature to the crystallisation figure to remove any work hardening effects. The result will be the softest, weakest and least fatigue resistant version of a 300 series alloy.

Edit: if you ever made a copper bowl in metalwork at school you will be familiar with the concept. Hammering the copper into shape work hardens it until it will no longer deform. Annealing it to red heat softens it back to its original ductility.

Your first sentence: increased UTS, hardness and fatigue life go hand in hand. You dont get one without the others.

 

[TNLI]

The link extract you are quoting from is somewhat confused. Precipitation hardening steels such as 17/4 PH are subjected to a two-stage heat treatment at lower temperatures than described although in some cases they may be annealed first.

Annealing, also as it describes, involves raising the temperature to the crystallisation figure to remove any work hardening effects. The result will be the softest, weakest and least fatigue resistant version of a 300 series alloy.

Edit: if you ever made a copper bowl in metalwork at school you will be familiar with the concept. Hammering the copper into shape work hardens it until it will no longer deform. Annealing it to red heat softens it back to its original ductility.

Your first sentence: increased UTS, hardness and fatigue life go hand in hand. You dont get one without the others.

You seem to be missing the point, we are not dealing with normal fatigue life issues, it's more a case of defective parts fatigue life. I did point that out in my post, and the far Eastern stainless parts are terrible in terms of flaws, scratches and even tiny cracks when manufatured. It's only when they are fully tested that you will find the shear strength and actual test fatigue life is very poor. I've suffered from both types of failure a number of times, with a 12mm bolt that looked great, but suffered a shear failure when tightened by hand, and top of the range Norseman rigging terminals that failed after only 6 months. The backstay failure just West of Fiji was the last straw for me as regards stainless steel.

I suspect that the cheaper Chinese SS parts are not treated in any way at all, and as I said before there is some confusion about the defintion of annealing and heat treatment.
With many online test results, the figures are based on a part or sample that has no manufacturing flaws of any type, but in the real world they don't turn out to be correct.

Stainless steel is one of the most dangerous materials used in boats and other vehicles, cos it's imposible for the typical buyer to tell the difference between 316S and 299 recycled SS. That fact has resulted in a serious number of dismastings, losses from anchor, (Swivel or shackle failure), rudder failures, (Retaining bolts) and weld failures. I never use it for anything serious, and the company that I bought grey SS bolts from in Blighty, do not polish them for a good reason, which they told me cos the Chinese were making copies of their bolts, so they wanted to look different. If anyone had tried to sell light grey bolts with a Made in Sheffield mark, no one would have purchased them because they did not shine.

Just to correct one point in your reply, if you check the link and read about the company, their final stainless products are the very best you can buy, not the, "Softest weakest and least fatigue resistant".

 

[vyv_cox]

You seem to be missing the point, we are not dealing with normal fatigue life issues, it's more a case of defective parts fatigue life. I did point that out in my post, and the far Eastern stainless parts are terrible in terms of flaws, scratches and even tiny cracks when manufatured. It's only when they are fully tested that you will find the shear strength and actual test fatigue life is very poor. I've suffered from both types of failure a number of times, with a 12mm bolt that looked great, but suffered a shear failure when tightened by hand, and top of the range Norseman rigging terminals that failed after only 6 months. The backstay failure just West of Fiji was the last straw for me as regards stainless steel.

I suspect that the cheaper Chinese SS parts are not treated in any way at all, and as I said before there is some confusion about the defintion of annealing and heat treatment.
With many online test results, the figures are based on a part or sample that has no manufacturing flaws of any type, but in the real world they don't turn out to be correct.

Stainless steel is one of the most dangerous materials used in boats and other vehicles, cos it's imposible for the typical buyer to tell the difference between 316S and 299 recycled SS. That fact has resulted in a serious number of dismastings, losses from anchor, (Swivel or shackle failure), rudder failures, (Retaining bolts) and weld failures. I never use it for anything serious, and the company that I bought grey SS bolts from in Blighty, do not polish them for a good reason, which they told me cos the Chinese were making copies of their bolts, so they wanted to look different. If anyone had tried to sell light grey bolts with a Made in Sheffield mark, no one would have purchased them because they did not shine.

Just to correct one point in your reply, if you check the link and read about the company, their final stainless products are the very best you can buy, not the, "Softest weakest and least fatigue resistant".

I don't think it is me who is missing the point.

Where is your evidence for all this poor Chinese stainless steel? Almost everything we buy these days comes from China, including many stainless steel items that are to specification.

What is 299 stainless steel?

Annealing does exactly what I have said. I am not disputing that the company's products are good but you cannot argue with the metallurgy.

 

[TNLI]

I don't think it is me who is missing the point.
Where is your evidence for all this poor Chinese stainless steel? Almost everything we buy these days comes from China, including many stainless steel items that are to specification.
What is 299 stainless steel?
Annealing does exactly what I have said. I am not disputing that the company's products are good but you cannot argue with the metallurgy.

When you buy important SS parts that you do not want to suffer a premature failure or even corrode, it's often not made in China or India. The base material might be, but the machining and various types of treatment, including the intial annealing and testing is done in other countries like Germany, USA and even the UK. Often the companies involved in making high quality critical marine parts like clevis pins and rigging terminals are not very big, as they don't need a furnace. Even Trinidad where there is a good cheap gas supply from their own O & G field, has a big steel production facility for the oil rigs that are manufactured there. The steel for oil rigs does need to be of a high quality, and they do make SS parts there for the rigs.

Annealing does exactly what Inoxmare and the other top of the range SS parts companies says it does. Obviously if you think that modern top of the range SS parts don't need annealing, then the web site link does have a contact form for you to explain why they are making a mistake.

Anyway, I'm off to look at some 1 inch 316, (That's what is listed on their web site and in Fleabay), SS flatbars that I'm going to use as part of a pair of hull rub rails on the top of some sections of Chinese teak, (Think it's stained Oak), to check on the corrosion that has occured after a year in the garden. Fairly sure it's not 316, but might be 299, which is the number I use for SS made from recycled SS products, that is not treated in any way.

Chinese vs American Steel Quality: Building Comparisons | General Steel (gensteel.com)

What Is the Annealing Treatment for Austenitic Steels? (inoxmare.com)

Various anchor related parts:
ANCHORING AND DOCKING (inoxmare.com)

 

[zoidberg]

This all very well... and 'good stuff'.... but after 19 pages it has become repetitive, and is a long way removed from the OP's original questions.

I suspect that the better answers for him are posted within the first couple of pages. However, I'd offer another couple of practical ideas for consideration. My boat is of similar size to the OP's, at 27' LOA and around 3 tons. Anchoring needs/intentions are broadly similar.

I've used a Tesco vegetables shallow plastic crate tied on the foredeck of a Rival 34, when cruising the Scottish West Coast, to hold ready for use 30m. of the available chain, as the narrow navel pipe frequently caused chain-jams when expected to run out freely. That solution simply worked.

I now store my anchor warps ( rodes ) in dedicated CHEAP bags from IKEA, not EXPENSIVE rope bags from arborists/climbers' shops. They're easy to lug backwards and forwards - and replace. A shackle or Quicklink does the 'connection' job.

As for anchors, the 15kg Spade and the two Fortress Fx-16s are judged plenty capable - and plenty better than the Genuine CQR that served everyone well for decades. One size down would have been fine - but that's what was available. They are 'used/second hand' from here and therefore cheap - which in no way affects their ability to get a grip. Any similar SHHP anchor(s) will do the job for the OP really well.... IMHO.

These are available online - and quite cheaply - but would need some TLC, and the OP might not care to lug one around his foredeck....

 

[Tamar]

Anyone used a plastic beer crate as an anchor?

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Looking at the rope in the bag, I have never seen this way of storing before, all plaited, which I assumes just pulls out as the line is deployed. Do have details, or links to articles on how to do this? I assume it is a tried and tested way of storing rope that is required to run out easily when needed. How reliable is the method on older rope?

 

[thinwater]

Anyone used a plastic beer crate as an anchor?

I was anchored (snagged) by a shopping cart once. It was deep in the mud and generated impressive hold.

 

[geem]

I was anchored (snagged) by a shopping cart once. It was deep in the mud and generated impressive hold.

We once pulled one of those up with our anchor. It was full of thick mud and sand. Impressive since in those days we used a S&L 555 manual windlass

 

[vyv_cox]

Anyone used a plastic beer crate as an anchor?

I have read that a plastic crate works well as an emergency rudder with lines taken to each side of the transom.

 

[thinwater]

I have read that a plastic crate works well as an emergency rudder with lines taken to each side of the transom.

"I have read" ranks right up there with "Hey, watch this" as an introduction to a disaster. Yes, this is just a watercooler conversation, and I brought up the shopping cart!

"I have read" it suggested that a crate or bucket can be used for emergency steering, but I have never read of someone trying it. I have tested drogues for steering, and I'm pretty much positive that a crate would not have nearly enough drag. A 30-inch Gale rider is just enough for a 34' cat, and that has 16 feet of beam for leverage.

If you (meaning anyone listening) want to try jury rigger emergency steering, I suggest your bower (not Fortress for this) anchor hung under your largest fender. Works well and has been proven across an ocean (Egret--you can Google it). I tested this, and while I like a commercial drogue a little better, it did pretty darn well.

 

[zoidberg]

If you (meaning anyone listening) want to try jury rigger emergency steering, I suggest your bower (not Fortress for this) anchor hung under your largest fender. Works well and has been proven across an ocean (Egret--you can Google it). I tested this, and while I like a commercial drogue a little better, it did pretty darn well.

Interesting! A straightforward provision of 'jury-rigged' steering is of interest to me - and, presumably, to Simon Corwen presently in the far Southern Ocean somewhere a long way west of Chile.

I will look up the Egret tale, thanks.

 

[zoidberg]

Looking at the rope in the bag, I have never seen this way of storing before, all plaited, which I assumes just pulls out as the line is deployed. Do have details, or links to articles on how to do this? I assume it is a tried and tested way of storing rope that is required to run out easily when needed. How reliable is the method on older rope?

'Zackly.

Herezit!

 

[vyv_cox]

"I have read" ranks right up there with "Hey, watch this" as an introduction to a disaster. Yes, this is just a watercooler conversation, and I brought up the shopping cart!

"I have read" it suggested that a crate or bucket can be used for emergency steering, but I have never read of someone trying it. I have tested drogues for steering, and I'm pretty much positive that a crate would not have nearly enough drag. A 30-inch Gale rider is just enough for a 34' cat, and that has 16 feet of beam for leverage.

If you (meaning anyone listening) want to try jury rigger emergency steering, I suggest your bower (not Fortress for this) anchor hung under your largest fender. Works well and has been proven across an ocean (Egret--you can Google it). I tested this, and while I like a commercial drogue a little better, it did pretty darn well.

In fact I read it in Yachting Monthly but a long time ago. It had been used in a genuine emergency and had photos attached. I also remember that there was a similar commercial device at one time.

 

[Tamar]

I have read that a plastic crate works well as an emergency rudder with lines taken to each side of the transom.

A plastic crate also works better than proper drogue

 

[thinwater]

Interesting! A straightforward provision of 'jury-rigged' steering is of interest to me - and, presumably, to Simon Corwen presently in the far Southern Ocean somewhere a long way west of Chile.

I will look up the Egret tale, thanks.

So simple it is a jury rigger for any sailor. Nothing extra to carry and it works.

Egret drogue steering

 

[thinwater]

A plastic crate also works better than proper drogue

Post the testing.

 

[thinwater]

Looking at the rope in the bag, I have never seen this way of storing before, all plaited, which I assumes just pulls out as the line is deployed. Do have details, or links to articles on how to do this? I assume it is a tried and tested way of storing rope that is required to run out easily when needed. How reliable is the method on older rope?

Fairly common for SAR and some climbers ... but they would never using manky rope. I've never seen it done with 3-strand--except for washing. It also increases storage volume some compared with other methods. But it is tangle-free.

I don't see any advantage over flaking into a bucket or locker. But in a bag ... maybe. But over flaking into a bag, maybe, because the bag does not stay open. But I've flaked many ropes into bags (climbing and sailing), and so long as the tail is tied to the inside bottom of the bag it works fine. That is how whitewater throw bags work.

Referred to as daisy chaining or a chain sennet (Google it). Also good for washing rope.

 

[TNLI]

As for anchors, the 15kg Spade and the two Fortress Fx-16s are judged plenty capable - and plenty better than the Genuine CQR that served everyone well for decades. One size down would have been fine - but that's what was available. They are 'used/second hand' from here and therefore cheap - which in no way affects their ability to get a grip. Any similar SHHP anchor(s) will do the job for the OP really well.... IMHO.

These are available online - and quite cheaply - but would need some TLC, and the OP might not care to lug one around his foredeck....

Wow, the ships anchor on the right is a real good unbendable, unbreakable storm anchor, that would even function well in mud. If it was in Dorset or along the coast to Southampton area, I might consider making an offer, BUT only if 2 fit chaps can lift it. It could sell as a first class display item after about half a days wire brushing and Zinc primer, with a final couple of coats of Bronze paint.
The one in the middle looks lighter, but is a design that is not so good in mud or sand, as the 2 flukes are rather narrow. The fishermans Hooker is past its use by date, so not of any real value, as it's not the only hooker around the yards!

The Spade is a good choice as a secondary main and a well used one would need the same wire brushing and paint treatment as the old ships anchors, although you would need both silver and yellow topcoats. 3 pots of International 2 component paint, (Steel primer, yellow and silver), will cost around 100 quid, plus VAT and shipping if required.

The Fortress alloy Danforth is a real class act in holding power per pound for mud and sand, alas a rock jam, or even a serious 90 degree veer when set well into hard mud will result in the need for a second one, so it's are real good idea to carry a second one. The lifetime warranty is of no use, as it excludes bending, as do all of the modern new generation anchor warranty terms.

If you comment on the CQR, please post pictures of both sides of the shank, as the vast majority of CQR anchors are either old rusty cast Iron ones, or bad copies that do not have the same weight on the nose as a genuine STEEL CQR.
Oyster yachts are now fitting the new Lewmar stainless CQR as a main storm anchor for their cruising yachts, with an Lewmar alloy Danforth as secondary main. The owners can select a steel Lewmar PGX Danforth if they are concerned about bent anchor issues. The Oyster 69 I sailed may years ago had a genuine stell CQR as main, so it's interesting to see that they are continuing to use the very best anchors available. Owners can select a third anchor from a list of Lloyds/ABS approved anchors, although I'm not sure which deep water fishermans has that approval. The Herreshof or Oscillati Admiralty pattern fishermans might have an approval.

The Oyster design and production team, the anchor experts at Lewmar and of course myself, know nothing about anchors or anchoring system, and none of us have the slightest clue about how useless some cheap mild or stainless steels are. Last time I said the probable cause of an incident that had resulted in a dismasting of an oldish Oyster 72, was that the main spreader stainless steel thru bolt end nut had been replaced with one from a chandlery in London, and that the cheap Chinese nut had not been annealed or treated in any way, I got thrown out of their office and called a clueless idiot!