KevinV
Well-Known Member
The problem with the Internet is that there is no landlord to tell you it's time to go home when you're getting repetitive 
Anchor setup for serious crusing - anchor size for 25 foot, 2 tons (4500 pounds) yachts
- Thread starter slawosz
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vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
300 series stainless steel, which includes 302, 304, 316 and anything else that starts 3xx, is austenitic. The difference between them is compositional. It makes no difference, they cannot be strengthened by heat treatment. In every alloy I can think of, annealing results in the weakest form.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
You can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
My anchor matches my bow roller perfectly well thank you. In fact I had the whole stem head fitting off last year and had strengthening bits welded in plus a bit added to hold the Spade anchor in place. I even took the Spade anchor into the stainless fabrication shop to model how I wanted it to fit. I also had new bow rollers port and starboard turned up in a suitable composite plastic while I was at it.
CQR anchors are beloved by people who can’t or won’t realise that anchors have moved on for the better. A bit like people who say that the boat to cross an ocean in must have a long keel. Anything else is a death trap. I used to swear by my CQR. Then I realised how short sighted I was and what a fool I’d been.
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
HY 130 is fairly tough too.... 
KevinV
Well-Known Member
(in adenoidal voice) "Actually, I think you will find that a pencil has to be graphite"
Farmer Piles
Well-Known Member
And, actually, I think that the phrase you were thinking of is:
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it do the washing-up.
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it do the washing-up.
Farmer Piles
Well-Known Member
Another useful saying:
Outside of a dog,a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog it is too dark to read.
Groucho Marx
Not the least bit relevant but I find it funny.
Outside of a dog,a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog it is too dark to read.
Groucho Marx
Not the least bit relevant but I find it funny.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Ok smarty pants. I’m just not sure who’s got lead in their pencil now.
(And yes I know it’s a composite graphite in pencils really…)
boomerangben
Well-Known Member
Graphite “composite” is a great material for making anchors and chain! (But only if you add a lot of iron!)
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Whoosh
Neeves
Well-Known Member
You are far too hard on yourself. You got to where you are physically located now - because you came to the correct conclusions in the end.
Your choice of Spade was actually quite revolutionary - very few (other than the French) have adopted it. (There is a lot of nationalistic focus in anchor choice). Spade has spawned many of the new designs, specifically Rocna, Supreme, Ultra and Vulcan - and I see shades of Spade in the latest iteration, Epsilon. What Spade needed, at the time, was better marketing and distribution - a bit late now (design and fabrication has moved on).
I was not questioning your use of the Kong swivel, (perfectly safe and proven so) but it can need manual intervention (and the swivel makes this easier). There are other options, that self right the anchor automatically and the savings, financial, would buy you a decent malt whisky. But note that if you have slotted roller the Boomerang will not work (but jamb in the slot) you would need to look at NormanS iteration.
Take care, stay safe
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Showing my age
When I went to infant school, in Scotland, they were clearing out the cupboards. They were throwing out the wooden framed slates and the talc sticks. Its one of those vignettes I have (obviously) never forgotten. No pencils then and the pens were dip-stick.
And then it all changed.
Jonathan
zoidberg
Well-Known Member
The problem with the Internet is that there is no landlord to tell you it's time to go home when you're getting repetitive
There's a whiff of 'Sheldon Cooper' growing in this thread.
.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
I don’t have any slots in our anchor rollers. The main rode ends at the swivel and then there’s three or four links from swivel to shackle to anchor. (To prevent the swivel getting jammed at an unnatural angle. ) The swivel is only there to allow whoever is in the bow to poke the anchor the right way round if it’s backwards…. A boomerang would do it equally well or better and I might change to one.
TNLI
Well-Known Member
Does your boat have room for a second chain rode ?? Also are you thinking of using only one anchor ?? If not which type of secondary are you going to use ?? It's very important to select a good secondary, because unless you fancy diving on your anchor to see how it has set, using a single anchor is never going to result in a reliable result if you get unlucky and foul it with debris like tin cans on the points, plastic bags and even discarded fishing gear. 7mm is not a common size for chain, so it might be best to go for 8mm.
You might need to think about divinding the anchor locker into 2 sections., as trying to store 2 rodes in 1 locker can result in a tangle.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Do not have two rodes in the same locker - the weight will be from the chain and having it all in the bow will reduce your sailing performance. Better to store the rode in an appropriately sized crate, maybe a milk crate, as then you can store it centrally (over the keel). But your second rode can be a mix, some chain and more textile. If you store in a milk crate it will then be handy for you to deploy from a dinghy. Don't go up on size, there is no advantage - at all. I'd go with 6mm (we use 6mm on a 7t x 38' cat) - its a breeze to work with by hand - and even better with a windlass
.If you are thinking of a 10kg Delta, think again, maybe a 10kg Epsilon or Rocna, Spade, Excel, Viking, Kobra, Vulcan - but NOT a Delta. I get the impression the yacht is small - I'd add Fortress to the mix. Please do not consider CQR - they should be museum pieces - technology has moved on and on and left it, Delta and Bruce behind.
But why not be different and tell us what your yacht is, how big and what you have already with ground tackle (and windlass).
Confess I have not seen your original post, life is too short to sift though over 300 posts and 18 pages - so if you have defined your yacht - it lost in Forum mists.
I'd actually suggest you start a new thread - but this may invoke wrath
Jonathan
thinwater
Well-Known Member
Read post 1 on anchor bottle opener testing. I promise it is worth the time.Some of the comment in this thread has me thinking again about my array of anchors 'for all conditions'.
I've acquired these for round-the-cans racing, where weight-saving is wanted....
What d'you think?
Mantus anchor bottle opener testing
zoidberg
Well-Known Member
TNLI
Well-Known Member
Reply to OP's post about anchor setup for serious cruising:
First of all, DON'T START A NEW THREAD! The fact that most of the replies were the usual negative or off topic rants, (Might have been guilty of a few off topic ones myself), is not your fault and no reason to start a new thread.
If you are weight or C of G critical, then see if you can buy a heavy duty anchor rode bag that can be clipped or lashed to a stanchion base, or other location. Milk crates fall apart too easily and are only big enough for a light line. I think the blue bag I used was from West Marine was good and was semi porous, so let the water out fairly well. Obviously I don't know how much your crew can lift or drag along the deck, but I would use as much 6mm chain from a real good company as practical, 25m minimum, with 100m of good quality 3 ply or if you like running up bills, multiplat. Get a real good professional rigger to long splice it to the chain. Jimmy Greens chandlery rings a bell as regards made to measure rodes. Make 100 % sure you know how to prevent chafe and that your fairleads or cleats don't rip out of the deck in extreme conditions. There is nothing wrong with going up on size if you have the gear to handle it, but it sounds like using heavier 8m chain would be bad news in this case.
For the deep water short scope anchor, just use 10m of 6 or 8mm chain and a 200m towing line of 3 ply, ( Or have two 100m 3 ply lines). The decision over the type of line is really up to you, although I prefer orange Polyprop. on the plastic reel drum it's sold on, with a simple frame to support it if you can't tie a line from one stanchion to the other to allow the drum to spin as the line pays out. Ask the local fishermen where to buy both 3 ply or Poly lines, and if you are not allowed to purchase directly from a commercial fishermans co-operative, just buy an old salt a few beers for buying it, as it will be half the price of any chandlery in many cases.
If you get unlucky enough to need trailing warps when running before, you must have enough heavy chain to sink the line. That can be stored in the bilges or used to correct the loaded C of G. Obviously you must have a good chain cutter to cut off sections of chain, or other boats with all chain that have dragged into you. To add to the drag of a trailing warp, it's easy to tie in overhand knots. You can use Poly, for trailing warps, but it does complcate things, as you need more or heavier chain to sink it. Don't get complacent about what can go wrong sailing around the Blighty Islands, Haggisland in particular can prove interesting and the last thing you want to do is get into a situation where you are loosing directional control going downwind, and finding yourself in command of an unstable surfboard. That kind of issue can happen near shore or offshore. I've even seen a trailing warp used to cross a breaking bar into a river estuary.
Now as regards the selection of 3 anchors, DO NOT BUY ANYTHING THAT CAN BE BENT OR BROKEN AS A MAIN, they might look nice and perform well in moderate conditions and sand or mud, but alas you need the real thing, not a light weight modified copy of an old design.
MAIN/STORM: The 10 KG DELTA is a real good choice, and if you are trying to look cool buying the latest new generation Lewmar CQR, don't forget that it does need a fraction more scope than a Delta. If you are concerned about lack of scope, then the UK SPADE, (Or Spade UK), would be good, even if it can be bent. Just make sure that a second anchor has been set to reduce the chances of a serious 90 degree pull on its shank whilst it's jammed into rocks that you were not aware of etc.
SECONDARY MAIN: LEWMAR PGX steel Danforth mounted on special stanchion clamps, (Ask Lewmar as they are difficult to find). If you can't afford it, the Force 4 Danforth I purchased seems to be well made. The main thing is to buy a version of the Danny that is bend resistant, and the worst performer for ultimate bendability is the Fortress.
DEEEP WATER: In some cases this might be needed very close to cliffs or a rocky shore after an engine or rig failure.
I'm convinced the best anchor is the most expensive version of a fishermans, and one that does provide fairly OK holding in sand or mud, so could be used as a secondary main if your Delta is stolen or otherwise lost. THE BRONZE 3 PIECE HERRESHOF is a real joy to behold, and if you are a bit of a pontoon poser, would look cool.
The RNLI carry an Admiralty pattern fishermens for use in heavy weed, rocks, wrecks or serious debris, BUT you might want to use a fully folding version that is easier to store and has mini flukes to improve the very low holding power of a cheap bar type fishermans. I'm working on modifying one at present, as the chains rusted. Might post a picture this evening. There is enough fluke area to function as a secondary if the main was lost.
Finally, practice deploying a secondary anchor WITHOUT USING A DINGHY or an inflatable canoe in my case. I've had some real trouble doing this single handed, as you can't watch the primary anchor rode whilst motoring at an angle to the main anchor's rode whilst positioning to drop the Danforth, (The Danny is real good at setting without a pull). Be careful not to run over the mains rope part of the rode, and this is not an easy task with a cross current or in strong winds. Once you and your crew have mastered double anchoring, you will find it does not take long to do. If you like trying to drown yourself or your crew, enter an anchorage in bad conditions and then try using a rubber duck to set out a secondary anchor.
PARACHUTE SEA ANCHORS: I posted a link about this before and PBO did an article on them. I've only used small homemade ones to slow the drift rate down when fishing.
DINGHY/TENDER ANCHOR: This needs to be a short scope anchor with a light line that is long enough to do at least 2 to 1 in the worst case in terms of the max depth at high tide of all the anchorages you intend to use, and don't forget you are just as likely to drown after an incident with your rubber duck as your boat.
Training wise, just let your crew person try a routine trip from the boat to the dock in an offshore wind, and stop the engine half way to see how they deal with the situation. IF they are real good they will depart the boat directly towards the shore, plus or minus an allowance for current, then simply drift back to the bow without any paddling. If the outboard fails after they reach shallow water, then see if they can anchor in a sensible manner. FOLDING GRAPNELS seem to be good for dinghy anchors, but the Herreshof fishermans has nice rounded off parts, and a special order small, (2 or 3kgs), bronze or stainless one would look cool at the dock until it gets stolen.
I stopped off at Horn Island doing the inside passage from Cairns to Darwin, and anchored close to the dock. When I rowed my Avon 8 the short distance to the dock, the local Police boat turned towards me and slowed down to shout out, "Mate, even a small Salty can swim faster than you can row". I thought he might be joking, but was alarmed to find out that they were organising a search and shoot party to look for a 17ft Salty that had moved into the local area.
First of all, DON'T START A NEW THREAD! The fact that most of the replies were the usual negative or off topic rants, (Might have been guilty of a few off topic ones myself), is not your fault and no reason to start a new thread.
If you are weight or C of G critical, then see if you can buy a heavy duty anchor rode bag that can be clipped or lashed to a stanchion base, or other location. Milk crates fall apart too easily and are only big enough for a light line. I think the blue bag I used was from West Marine was good and was semi porous, so let the water out fairly well. Obviously I don't know how much your crew can lift or drag along the deck, but I would use as much 6mm chain from a real good company as practical, 25m minimum, with 100m of good quality 3 ply or if you like running up bills, multiplat. Get a real good professional rigger to long splice it to the chain. Jimmy Greens chandlery rings a bell as regards made to measure rodes. Make 100 % sure you know how to prevent chafe and that your fairleads or cleats don't rip out of the deck in extreme conditions. There is nothing wrong with going up on size if you have the gear to handle it, but it sounds like using heavier 8m chain would be bad news in this case.
For the deep water short scope anchor, just use 10m of 6 or 8mm chain and a 200m towing line of 3 ply, ( Or have two 100m 3 ply lines). The decision over the type of line is really up to you, although I prefer orange Polyprop. on the plastic reel drum it's sold on, with a simple frame to support it if you can't tie a line from one stanchion to the other to allow the drum to spin as the line pays out. Ask the local fishermen where to buy both 3 ply or Poly lines, and if you are not allowed to purchase directly from a commercial fishermans co-operative, just buy an old salt a few beers for buying it, as it will be half the price of any chandlery in many cases.
If you get unlucky enough to need trailing warps when running before, you must have enough heavy chain to sink the line. That can be stored in the bilges or used to correct the loaded C of G. Obviously you must have a good chain cutter to cut off sections of chain, or other boats with all chain that have dragged into you. To add to the drag of a trailing warp, it's easy to tie in overhand knots. You can use Poly, for trailing warps, but it does complcate things, as you need more or heavier chain to sink it. Don't get complacent about what can go wrong sailing around the Blighty Islands, Haggisland in particular can prove interesting and the last thing you want to do is get into a situation where you are loosing directional control going downwind, and finding yourself in command of an unstable surfboard. That kind of issue can happen near shore or offshore. I've even seen a trailing warp used to cross a breaking bar into a river estuary.
Now as regards the selection of 3 anchors, DO NOT BUY ANYTHING THAT CAN BE BENT OR BROKEN AS A MAIN, they might look nice and perform well in moderate conditions and sand or mud, but alas you need the real thing, not a light weight modified copy of an old design.
MAIN/STORM: The 10 KG DELTA is a real good choice, and if you are trying to look cool buying the latest new generation Lewmar CQR, don't forget that it does need a fraction more scope than a Delta. If you are concerned about lack of scope, then the UK SPADE, (Or Spade UK), would be good, even if it can be bent. Just make sure that a second anchor has been set to reduce the chances of a serious 90 degree pull on its shank whilst it's jammed into rocks that you were not aware of etc.
SECONDARY MAIN: LEWMAR PGX steel Danforth mounted on special stanchion clamps, (Ask Lewmar as they are difficult to find). If you can't afford it, the Force 4 Danforth I purchased seems to be well made. The main thing is to buy a version of the Danny that is bend resistant, and the worst performer for ultimate bendability is the Fortress.
DEEEP WATER: In some cases this might be needed very close to cliffs or a rocky shore after an engine or rig failure.
I'm convinced the best anchor is the most expensive version of a fishermans, and one that does provide fairly OK holding in sand or mud, so could be used as a secondary main if your Delta is stolen or otherwise lost. THE BRONZE 3 PIECE HERRESHOF is a real joy to behold, and if you are a bit of a pontoon poser, would look cool.
The RNLI carry an Admiralty pattern fishermens for use in heavy weed, rocks, wrecks or serious debris, BUT you might want to use a fully folding version that is easier to store and has mini flukes to improve the very low holding power of a cheap bar type fishermans. I'm working on modifying one at present, as the chains rusted. Might post a picture this evening. There is enough fluke area to function as a secondary if the main was lost.
Finally, practice deploying a secondary anchor WITHOUT USING A DINGHY or an inflatable canoe in my case. I've had some real trouble doing this single handed, as you can't watch the primary anchor rode whilst motoring at an angle to the main anchor's rode whilst positioning to drop the Danforth, (The Danny is real good at setting without a pull). Be careful not to run over the mains rope part of the rode, and this is not an easy task with a cross current or in strong winds. Once you and your crew have mastered double anchoring, you will find it does not take long to do. If you like trying to drown yourself or your crew, enter an anchorage in bad conditions and then try using a rubber duck to set out a secondary anchor.
PARACHUTE SEA ANCHORS: I posted a link about this before and PBO did an article on them. I've only used small homemade ones to slow the drift rate down when fishing.
DINGHY/TENDER ANCHOR: This needs to be a short scope anchor with a light line that is long enough to do at least 2 to 1 in the worst case in terms of the max depth at high tide of all the anchorages you intend to use, and don't forget you are just as likely to drown after an incident with your rubber duck as your boat.
Training wise, just let your crew person try a routine trip from the boat to the dock in an offshore wind, and stop the engine half way to see how they deal with the situation. IF they are real good they will depart the boat directly towards the shore, plus or minus an allowance for current, then simply drift back to the bow without any paddling. If the outboard fails after they reach shallow water, then see if they can anchor in a sensible manner. FOLDING GRAPNELS seem to be good for dinghy anchors, but the Herreshof fishermans has nice rounded off parts, and a special order small, (2 or 3kgs), bronze or stainless one would look cool at the dock until it gets stolen.
I stopped off at Horn Island doing the inside passage from Cairns to Darwin, and anchored close to the dock. When I rowed my Avon 8 the short distance to the dock, the local Police boat turned towards me and slowed down to shout out, "Mate, even a small Salty can swim faster than you can row". I thought he might be joking, but was alarmed to find out that they were organising a search and shoot party to look for a 17ft Salty that had moved into the local area.
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