Tamar
Well-Known Member
I can't, it was a long time ago and our parachute drogue was a liability so we chucked the crate over on a long line. Worked a treat. Remove beer/ milk first of course
Anchor setup for serious crusing - anchor size for 25 foot, 2 tons (4500 pounds) yachts
- Thread starter slawosz
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vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
We are talking beefy UK milk crate, 24 British pint bottles with strong solid barriers between each bottle. A long way from a modern flimsy thing for half a dozen cans.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
The anchor on the right is a small stock less anchor as used In bigger versions by ships. I imagine this one was off a workboat. Ships rely on the chain to anchor them, unlike yachts and small craft. The stock less anchor secures the end of the chain. IT DOESNT WORK IN SAME WAY AS A YACHT ANCHOR. Why do t yachts use this technique. Because the size is all wrong. (Go and research it.)Wow, the ships anchor on the right is a real good unbendable, unbreakable storm anchor, that would even function well in mud. If it was in Dorset or along the coast to Southampton area, I might consider making an offer, BUT only if 2 fit chaps can lift it. It could sell as a first class display item after about half a days wire brushing and Zinc primer, with a final couple of coats of Bronze paint.
The one in the middle looks lighter, but is a design that is not so good in mud or sand, as the 2 flukes are rather narrow. The fishermans Hooker is past its use by date, so not of any real value, as it's not the only hooker around the yards!
The Spade is a good choice as a secondary main and a well used one would need the same wire brushing and paint treatment as the old ships anchors, although you would need both silver and yellow topcoats. 3 pots of International 2 component paint, (Steel primer, yellow and silver), will cost around 100 quid, plus VAT and shipping if required.
The Fortress alloy Danforth is a real class act in holding power per pound for mud and sand, alas a rock jam, or even a serious 90 degree veer when set well into hard mud will result in the need for a second one, so it's are real good idea to carry a second one. The lifetime warranty is of no use, as it excludes bending, as do all of the modern new generation anchor warranty terms.
If you comment on the CQR, please post pictures of both sides of the shank, as the vast majority of CQR anchors are either old rusty cast Iron ones, or bad copies that do not have the same weight on the nose as a genuine STEEL CQR.
Oyster yachts are now fitting the new Lewmar stainless CQR as a main storm anchor for their cruising yachts, with an Lewmar alloy Danforth as secondary main. The owners can select a steel Lewmar PGX Danforth if they are concerned about bent anchor issues. The Oyster 69 I sailed may years ago had a genuine stell CQR as main, so it's interesting to see that they are continuing to use the very best anchors available. Owners can select a third anchor from a list of Lloyds/ABS approved anchors, although I'm not sure which deep water fishermans has that approval. The Herreshof or Oscillati Admiralty pattern fishermans might have an approval.
The Oyster design and production team, the anchor experts at Lewmar and of course myself, know nothing about anchors or anchoring system, and none of us have the slightest clue about how useless some cheap mild or stainless steels are. Last time I said the probably cause of an incident that had resulted in a dismasting of an oldish Oyster 72, was that the main spreader stainless steel thru bolt end nut had been replaced with one from a chandlery in London, and that the cheap Chinese nut had not been annealed or treated in any way, I got thrown out of their office and called a clueless idiot!
So you admit your claims/suggestions regarding metallurgy were laughed at and you got thrown out. Can you spot any similarities between what’s happening here and what happened then?
Are you suggesting‘you’re not flat because the band’s sharp.’ Or to put it another way, you’re the only person marching in step?
You dismiss modern anchors but all anchors can get damaged and with enough abuse. CQR’s certainly aren’t immune. Even genuine forged ones. Don’t delude yourself. And just because you’ve found some examples of latest generation anchors being bent or damaged is definitely not an excuse to claim they’re defective. Their holding power and resetting ability is streets ahead of the previous generation anchors. In regular use (including extreme conditions) they’re no more likely to be damaged than a CQR. Except perhaps the CQR might survive by its ability to drag!!!
PS A Fortress is NOT a Danforth. You’ll find yourself In trouble with the manufacturers of Fortress anchors if you make such claims.
zoidberg
Well-Known Member
That's right, J_M (ex)UK. You tell 'im where to get off!
( Thinks.... is there an extradition treaty with The Republic of Barbados? )
( Thinks.... is there an extradition treaty with The Republic of Barbados? )
thinwater
Well-Known Member
I would love to see a pic. Not a thing in the US in the past 50 years. Became obsolete at that time. I vaguely remember them. But they were big and cumbersome and should work if properly weighted, depending on the boat size.
Though I can't imagine why I would have a milk crate with bafles on a boat, since it serves no other logical purpose, other than holding milk bottles. The ale and other bottle goods go in the bilge in defined spaces.
A parachute drogue is all wrong for steering, and probably for any reason on a mono. They are not sold for those purposes in the US. Possibly for parking a multihull, but it needs to be BIG for that purpose, about 1/2 the length of the boat. A parchute drogues are not useful for speed limiting; too much drag, not stable at speeds about 2-3 knots, and not stable if used near the surface (steering for example). Either turbulence devises (Gale rider, fender/anchor, or even milk crate) or balute drogues (Shark, Sea Brake, Delta Drogue) are much more suitable. I've tested all of these, and the Gale Rider is the best for steering because it is the most stable near the surface and has the greatest range of drag adjustment.
KevinV
Well-Known Member
Yay! Can we talk about why you, your testing regime, your chosen examples and your recommendations are completely wrong - for the NEXT 20 pages?
Preferably with lots of baseless drivel repeated ad nauseum? It just wouldn't feel right otherwise.
thinwater
Well-Known Member
It's been published in several sailing mags. You can find it.
I would be the first to say that solutions vary by boat, boat type, and conditions, and that practice is required. Anything anyone says can be all wrong in a different day or in a different place. Like strong weather sail trim; it's a skill that must be practiced. Like anchor testing, there is no one best answer, but there are trends and a few things that can be measured. And like anchors, it's clear that poor anchors can be made to work, and that some are superior.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
This is a milk crate, the cubic device on the near right.
They come with standard dimensions, and are stackable. There are 2 versions. One like the one illustrated and the other version has dividers, I assume as they are (or were) used for glass bottles. They are tough, which is why everyone uses them to store things on a boat. You could lash 4 of them together - if you so desired. Our bow locker takes 6 of them, stacked 2 towers, 3 high. We use one of them for our spare rode, as illustrated (15m of 6mm and 40m of 12mm 3 ply). We attach spare shackles to the obvious locations on the crate.. As far as I am aware the crates are identical whether they come from the UK or Oz (and see later - the US). If you go into a hardware store in Oz you can buy solid ones, without any holes - in which you can store small items (like Lego) and are sold to store whatever - children's toys. They are to the same dimension but less robust.
When I was at school I used to deliver milk. 2 hours every morning. I ran competitively and we delivered at the run. It was excellent exercise. We had milk crates then but they were galvanised steel, to the exact same, or similar, dimension as the plastic ones now. This was late 60s. So plastic crates came in later. We actually delivered the milk in long crates holding 6 pints each side and ran with one long crate in each hand.
Milk delivery, the milk man and milk boys were killed by the supermarket - but milk still comes in 1l plastic bottles and various other sizes, 2l, 4l
Milk cates are manufactured for major players and are embossed into the sides with warnings that the crates are the proper of XYZ Ltd and misuse will result in penalties etc. No-one takes a blind bit of notice.
Every tradesman will use them to store his tools in his ute aka pick up.
Oddly - you never see broken ones - they last for ever.
I vaguely recall someone using one or a number for steering when they lost their rudder (or whatever). There may have been a article in PBO. I recall being told of one bright spark who built his own yacht and designed is lockers round the dimensions of milk crates.
If milk had never existed the sailing industry would have designed something like a milk carte - they are so useful (makes a marvellous low step when antifouling) - and indestructible.
Jonathan
Edit, you can even source them in America.
One of the many designs on this webpage look identical to the one in my photograph.
MILK CRATES - Plastic Crates For Sale | Buy Direct & SAVE
They would make excellent drogues (or whatever) as they are perforated, indestructible, have plenty of attachment points, you will have them on your yacht anyway. You would need to conduct a few trials to find out which and how many attachments points you would need to use and how many you would use to achieve your desired aim. The main attraction is they are on free loan as you will be returning them to the rightful owner.
Sorry but I do not have a close up of a crate - it never crossed my mind there would be a question - to me they are ubiquitous. Note to self - must do better. Second note to self - in my next life do not take an interest in anchors.
J
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TNLI
Well-Known Member
OFF TOPIC
If you are concerned about a steering failure, look up how to convert wheel steering to tiller.
For most yachts under around 50ft LOA, wheel steering is a mistake. In heavy weather it takes far too long to apply full rudder, wheel pilots are expensive, wheels clutter up the cockpit and worst of all have a nasty habit or failing. For serious offshore sailing, I always carry 3 electric tillerpilots, one to use, one spare and one in the post for a warranty claim. The main reason designers select a wheel pilot rather than a tiller, is that most owners drive a car or truck.
My last yacht I did a single handed circumnavigation in had a Hydrovane that can be used as an emergency tiller, alas it's a bit too big and rather expensive for a small boat under around 30 ft. Below that figure I would recommend the Navik I fitted to my first yacht, a 24ft Pacific Seacraft Dana.
If you are concerned about a steering failure, look up how to convert wheel steering to tiller.
For most yachts under around 50ft LOA, wheel steering is a mistake. In heavy weather it takes far too long to apply full rudder, wheel pilots are expensive, wheels clutter up the cockpit and worst of all have a nasty habit or failing. For serious offshore sailing, I always carry 3 electric tillerpilots, one to use, one spare and one in the post for a warranty claim. The main reason designers select a wheel pilot rather than a tiller, is that most owners drive a car or truck.
My last yacht I did a single handed circumnavigation in had a Hydrovane that can be used as an emergency tiller, alas it's a bit too big and rather expensive for a small boat under around 30 ft. Below that figure I would recommend the Navik I fitted to my first yacht, a 24ft Pacific Seacraft Dana.
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zoidberg
Well-Known Member
TNLI, m'dear. This 'bear of little brain' sometimes wonders what image of oneself is perceived by others - or a n other.
That well-kent Ayrshire Exciseman, Robert Burns, had some thoughts of that ilk, too.
In the interests of dispelling any misperception, my wee boat boast merely a tiller..... but a well varnished one. I COULD rustle up a whipstaff, if put to it.
However.....my Seafeather windvane gear is quite efficient. And I do have some spares for that.
That well-kent Ayrshire Exciseman, Robert Burns, had some thoughts of that ilk, too.
In the interests of dispelling any misperception, my wee boat boast merely a tiller..... but a well varnished one. I COULD rustle up a whipstaff, if put to it.
However.....my Seafeather windvane gear is quite efficient. And I do have some spares for that.
TNLI
Well-Known Member
You can make a very cheap alloy Brugal from a thin triangular plate, with a cheap far Eastern bolt on shank made of a fairly thin bar with a hole in it. Incredible holding power, SHHP, first class test results in various mags, brilliant reviews and posts in YM, PBO and PS. Perfect right up to a sudden unexpected dragging incident caused by the bolt breaking or pulling out after bending in a big way. If that happens, just bin it and buy another one for your replacement yacht or gin palace.
Poignard
Well-Known Member
No, but I have used a metal milk crate as a television aerial ?
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Can we please keep the thread on topic
but as there has been some drift - we watch using an iPad, no need for a milk crate aerial. You could fill it, the crate, not the iPad, with concrete, or stones, and make an anchor angel, it will certainly be strong enough.
Jonathan
TNLI
Well-Known Member
OFF TOPIC
Not overly keen on open crates for storing an anchor rode on deck unless conditins are good. I seem to remember one chap got his rope rode washed out of the crate when a tad over canvased in a squall. Alas he did not notice until the engine was started and put into gear prior to anchoring, and it then wrapped around the prop. I have used them for below deck storage, and West Marine did make some real nice folding versions. Alas they only make a blue one now:
Super Folding Basket | West Marine
Not planning on using a bag or crate on deck with my present lifeboat, apart from a bag for trailing warps/towing lines/Panama canal handling lines, (Same 4 lines, different day).
Not overly keen on open crates for storing an anchor rode on deck unless conditins are good. I seem to remember one chap got his rope rode washed out of the crate when a tad over canvased in a squall. Alas he did not notice until the engine was started and put into gear prior to anchoring, and it then wrapped around the prop. I have used them for below deck storage, and West Marine did make some real nice folding versions. Alas they only make a blue one now:
Super Folding Basket | West Marine
Not planning on using a bag or crate on deck with my present lifeboat, apart from a bag for trailing warps/towing lines/Panama canal handling lines, (Same 4 lines, different day).
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john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Is it only me who thinks that if you have to worry about the speed at which you’re applying full rudder, then there’s something wrong with your seamanship and/or sailplan. Why have you allowed the situation to deteriorate to such a degree? If you and the boats survival is dependent on applying full lock very quickly, somethings gone wrong somewhere
Whilst the fashion for wheels in smaller and smaller boats is something I worry about, above about 36’ LOA a wheel is often desirable or even essential.
Far better it for me to question someone’s ‘round the world in a small boat’ experience, but…
To the OP. Buy a modern generation anchor in accordance with the manufactures guidelines for your boat and plenty of tested and certified chain. Job done. PS there are much better anchor’s available than a CQR (even a new one from Lewmar) no matter what some people claim in boating websites.
TNLI
Well-Known Member
I agree that things have got a bit too sporting if the faster full lock capabilities of a tiller have to be used, but alas mother nature does not always cooperate as regards freak waves, braking bar entrances, debris dodging or the most common reason for a sudden need for full rudder, some clown in a race turning the wrong way near the start line. Some boats over 34 ft can prove a tad heavy in rudder force terms if they are long keelers with a big rudder. More modern designs have lighter loads due to counterbalancing in terms of where the pivot point is for the rudder, and some of the lighter race boats have tillers, even though they are over 60ft LOA.
To the OP: Don't forget you need 3 different anchors to cover all the different types of bottom, so a real good steel Danforth for sure, a deep water short scope anchor that is also good for rocks and heavy weed. That's a case of finding the best version of a classic fishermans available, and although the fully folding large fluke Admiralty pattern fishermans I'm modifying at present is a real good choice, I think the Herreshof version is better.
The genuine steel CQR, or one of the new Lewmar CQR's, is really best used by the more intelligent discerning anchoring specialst who never uses less than 4 to 1 of all chain. In a Chinese bolt snapping shank bending storm, using the 15KG Lewmar Delta you first thought of is the way to go. The CQR might be slightly better, but it's worth selling your new Delta to get one. If you do aquire a CQR and a Delta, keep the CQR for the storms.
I would note that if conditions are good, and the bottom is mud or sand, I tend to use the steel Danforth much more often than a CQR. If you are serious about safe anchoring you can forget the plastic crate game for a second anchors rode and fit dual bow anchor rollers and a divided anchor locker. You can compensate by storing the folding admiralty fishermans and mostly rope rode, near the stern in a dedicated section of a locker with the folding grapnel for the dinghy.
PS: The comment about better modern anchors than a CQR is a common one, so can you please say which anchor that has a biblical reputation for not falling apart or bending its shank you are talking about, as most of them are far too weak to use as storm anchors. ?? I'm always ready to look at new designs, although most of the new generation anchors are modified copies of an old generation design.
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thinwater
Well-Known Member
This is a milk crate, the cubic device on the near right.
View attachment 150252
They come with standard dimensions, and are stackable. There are 2 versions. One like the one illustrated and the other version has dividers, I assume as they are (or were) used for glass bottles. They are tough, which is why everyone uses them to store things on a boat. You could lash 4 of them together - if you so desired. Our bow locker takes 6 of them, stacked 2 towers, 3 high. We use one of them for our spare rode, as illustrated (15m of 6mm and 40m of 12mm 3 ply). We attach spare shackles to the obvious locations on the crate.. As far as I am aware the crates are identical whether they come from the UK or Oz (and see later - the US). If you go into a hardware store in Oz you can buy solid ones, without any holes - in which you can store small items (like Lego) and are sold to store whatever - children's toys. They are to the same dimension but less robust.
When I was at school I used to deliver milk. 2 hours every morning. I ran competitively and we delivered at the run. It was excellent exercise. We had milk crates then but they were galvanised steel, to the exact same, or similar, dimension as the plastic ones now. This was late 60s. So plastic crates came in later. We actually delivered the milk in long crates holding 6 pints each side and ran with one long crate in each hand.
Milk delivery, the milk man and milk boys were killed by the supermarket - but milk still comes in 1l plastic bottles and various other sizes, 2l, 4l
Milk cates are manufactured for major players and are embossed into the sides with warnings that the crates are the proper of XYZ Ltd and misuse will result in penalties etc. No-one takes a blind bit of notice.
Every tradesman will use them to store his tools in his ute aka pick up.
Oddly - you never see broken ones - they last for ever.
I vaguely recall someone using one or a number for steering when they lost their rudder (or whatever). There may have been a article in PBO. I recall being told of one bright spark who built his own yacht and designed is lockers round the dimensions of milk crates.
If milk had never existed the sailing industry would have designed something like a milk carte - they are so useful (makes a marvellous low step when antifouling) - and indestructible.
Jonathan
Edit, you can even source them in America.
One of the many designs on this webpage look identical to the one in my photograph.
MILK CRATES - Plastic Crates For Sale | Buy Direct & SAVE
They would make excellent drogues (or whatever) as they are perforated, indestructible, have plenty of attachment points, you will have them on your yacht anyway. You would need to conduct a few trials to find out which and how many attachments points you would need to use and how many you would use to achieve your desired aim. The main attraction is they are on free loan as you will be returning them to the rightful owner.
Sorry but I do not have a close up of a crate - it never crossed my mind there would be a question - to me they are ubiquitous. Note to self - must do better. Second note to self - in my next life do not take an interest in anchors.
J
Yes, very handy. I have several. But I'm actually not that keen for tools and such. They have holes and snag on stuff.
Actually, he specified one with dividers for pint bottles. What you show is quite common ... but useless for the originally suggested purpose (steering drogue). I tried one. It would work on a 24-foot boat in very mild conditions. Maybe.
I've had several steering failures over the years. Two related to things that would fail in the asme way, tiller or wheel (rudder shaft bent, for example, one of the more common failures).
TNLI
Well-Known Member
OFF TOPIC
If yer want to trash a forum in both practical and reputation terms, the best way to do it is with a whole bunch of off topic posts that make it near impossible for a visitor to that thread to read more than the first or last page. There is nothing wrong with off topic posts, but they should be clearly marked as such.
If you look at the top bar of options, the 6th droplet symbol allows you to select a different colour, and the 8th T plus the arrow symbol allows you to select the font size. If you put an OFF TOPIC warning in a reply, put it above the quote marks, as that makes it possible to avoid reading the quoted text.
In general the last 20 pages have been so bad that if some boat owner interested in learning about anchors or finding out what boaters are using for serious cruising, they would not only not read the 20 mostly useless, off topic or incorrect replies, but would be inclined not to bother visiting the YM forum again.
When the replies havebeen on topic, some are just the very common rude or totally daft responses that indicate the poster is either half drunk, or has never used an anchor in a seriously difficult situation as regards bad holding, good holding but with debris, subject to swell or direct wave action from some wind directions, (Big issue in the Pacific or Capes Verdes, as most anchorages are not fully enclosed).
As regards daft replies, this extract of a very recent one is truly nuts and potentially dangerous if you are buying new anchors:
"To the OP. Buy a modern generation anchor in accordance with the manufactures guidelines for your boat ---"
For legal reasons most boat manufacturers do not publish any guidelines about which anchor to use. Very few include more than a one anchor and rode, although the manufacturer of the very first yacht I purchased did sell new ones with 2 anchors in 2 anchor lockers, one at the bow and one at the stern, (Unless you paid the extra for a twin anchor setup for the bow). Pacific Seacraft have an awesome reputation for designing and building serious offshore yachts, so the smaller PS 21, 24, 31 and 34 were sold back in the 80's until very recent times with a genuine steel CQR and a steel Danforth. When the CQR went out of production, they changed to supplying a good copy in the form of a West Marine plow. The steel Danforth was also a WM version.
Most of the new generation or modern modified copies of current or old designs, the Lewmar Delta, Brugal and Danforth in particular, are worse than useless for anchoring in a storm or difficult holding ground like cobblestones, heavy gravel patches, rocks or heavy weed. The bent shank and broken Chinese bolt risk is a no go, and the 180 degree veer test failures that resulted in formal applogies for publishing incorrect articles from several major magazine, was disturbing, as it indicated that most yachting mags are just publising such artilces to help their advertising customers sell more modern anchors. 90% of the published test were of no real use including the recent tes of the Lewmar Epsilon, parlty because they don't repeat test at least 3 times to get both an average and a variance figure. The variance for tests in cobblestones or rocks would be high, as you would get a different response each time, until you try an anchor that was designed for such seabeds, like one of the fishermans anchors.
If anyone was interested in testing anchors for storm use, then once they have ruled out any anchor that bends too easily, they should test in pairs, as using just a single anchor in bad weather is far too risky, paricularly if the holding is Iffy or there is any risk of debris.
I dout if you will beat the performance of a Lewmar Delta, (Or Lewmar CQR), AND a Lewmar PGX steel Danforth set 30 degrees apart. If you don't like Lewmar products for some reason, Force 4 and West Marine make copies of both types.
A test of an Excel or UK Spade and a Fortress of the limiting size in a variety of seabad types would be interesting. Both anchors seem to work well, but the big question is how easily are they bent. I suspect that the Fortress will get bent fairly quickly in a rocks or heavy debris field. So the final test might be with the UK Spade on one side and the Excel on the other.
If yer want to trash a forum in both practical and reputation terms, the best way to do it is with a whole bunch of off topic posts that make it near impossible for a visitor to that thread to read more than the first or last page. There is nothing wrong with off topic posts, but they should be clearly marked as such.
If you look at the top bar of options, the 6th droplet symbol allows you to select a different colour, and the 8th T plus the arrow symbol allows you to select the font size. If you put an OFF TOPIC warning in a reply, put it above the quote marks, as that makes it possible to avoid reading the quoted text.
In general the last 20 pages have been so bad that if some boat owner interested in learning about anchors or finding out what boaters are using for serious cruising, they would not only not read the 20 mostly useless, off topic or incorrect replies, but would be inclined not to bother visiting the YM forum again.
When the replies havebeen on topic, some are just the very common rude or totally daft responses that indicate the poster is either half drunk, or has never used an anchor in a seriously difficult situation as regards bad holding, good holding but with debris, subject to swell or direct wave action from some wind directions, (Big issue in the Pacific or Capes Verdes, as most anchorages are not fully enclosed).
As regards daft replies, this extract of a very recent one is truly nuts and potentially dangerous if you are buying new anchors:
"To the OP. Buy a modern generation anchor in accordance with the manufactures guidelines for your boat ---"
For legal reasons most boat manufacturers do not publish any guidelines about which anchor to use. Very few include more than a one anchor and rode, although the manufacturer of the very first yacht I purchased did sell new ones with 2 anchors in 2 anchor lockers, one at the bow and one at the stern, (Unless you paid the extra for a twin anchor setup for the bow). Pacific Seacraft have an awesome reputation for designing and building serious offshore yachts, so the smaller PS 21, 24, 31 and 34 were sold back in the 80's until very recent times with a genuine steel CQR and a steel Danforth. When the CQR went out of production, they changed to supplying a good copy in the form of a West Marine plow. The steel Danforth was also a WM version.
Most of the new generation or modern modified copies of current or old designs, the Lewmar Delta, Brugal and Danforth in particular, are worse than useless for anchoring in a storm or difficult holding ground like cobblestones, heavy gravel patches, rocks or heavy weed. The bent shank and broken Chinese bolt risk is a no go, and the 180 degree veer test failures that resulted in formal applogies for publishing incorrect articles from several major magazine, was disturbing, as it indicated that most yachting mags are just publising such artilces to help their advertising customers sell more modern anchors. 90% of the published test were of no real use including the recent tes of the Lewmar Epsilon, parlty because they don't repeat test at least 3 times to get both an average and a variance figure. The variance for tests in cobblestones or rocks would be high, as you would get a different response each time, until you try an anchor that was designed for such seabeds, like one of the fishermans anchors.
If anyone was interested in testing anchors for storm use, then once they have ruled out any anchor that bends too easily, they should test in pairs, as using just a single anchor in bad weather is far too risky, paricularly if the holding is Iffy or there is any risk of debris.
I dout if you will beat the performance of a Lewmar Delta, (Or Lewmar CQR), AND a Lewmar PGX steel Danforth set 30 degrees apart. If you don't like Lewmar products for some reason, Force 4 and West Marine make copies of both types.
A test of an Excel or UK Spade and a Fortress of the limiting size in a variety of seabad types would be interesting. Both anchors seem to work well, but the big question is how easily are they bent. I suspect that the Fortress will get bent fairly quickly in a rocks or heavy debris field. So the final test might be with the UK Spade on one side and the Excel on the other.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
On milk crates
TNLI - I noted your new rule, I'll ignore it. We have Moderators who set rules. if you don't like how we operate - walk - the approved solution is in your hands, or feet. Use it, or them.
Oddly I don't see milk crates with dividers for 1 pint bottles, nor dividers at all. 1l milk in plastic bottles does not need dividers, and beer comes in slabs (Austrlians know nothing smaller than a slab
Why would anyone even consider having a milk crate on deck when sailing. The crate sits in a secure locker until needed and we don't anchor and sail simultaneously. Some people have really daft ideas.
The holes in a milk crate are advantageous - they allow the textile portion to drain - and nothing falls out - if you are careful (and only load items bigger than the holes, like a drill, orbital sander and angle grinder. We have tool boxes for the small items, and 'home made' wrap up devices for our spanners (of which we have a lot - having both Imperial and metric fittings)..
If a crate is good as an emergency device to allow a 24' yacht to be 'steered' - then there are plenty on here with 24' yachts (and some have smaller (and some 24' yachts cross the Atlantic). Emergency steering is to get you 'near' home - its not for round the cans racing. I'm for multi use devices and if we need to empty our 6 milk crates to allow us to get close to succour - we will use them all - it beats chopping up the cabin sole. In 40 years of sailing we have only twice 'lost' steering, both times the cable at the wheel - and this is easily replaced with spare wire and cable clamps (which every cruiser carries..... ).
Thinwater - you are very unlucky to have had 'several' steering failures....? Or you are very old
Jonathan
TNLI - I noted your new rule, I'll ignore it. We have Moderators who set rules. if you don't like how we operate - walk - the approved solution is in your hands, or feet. Use it, or them.
Oddly I don't see milk crates with dividers for 1 pint bottles, nor dividers at all. 1l milk in plastic bottles does not need dividers, and beer comes in slabs (Austrlians know nothing smaller than a slab
Why would anyone even consider having a milk crate on deck when sailing. The crate sits in a secure locker until needed and we don't anchor and sail simultaneously. Some people have really daft ideas.
The holes in a milk crate are advantageous - they allow the textile portion to drain - and nothing falls out - if you are careful (and only load items bigger than the holes, like a drill, orbital sander and angle grinder. We have tool boxes for the small items, and 'home made' wrap up devices for our spanners (of which we have a lot - having both Imperial and metric fittings)..
If a crate is good as an emergency device to allow a 24' yacht to be 'steered' - then there are plenty on here with 24' yachts (and some have smaller (and some 24' yachts cross the Atlantic). Emergency steering is to get you 'near' home - its not for round the cans racing. I'm for multi use devices and if we need to empty our 6 milk crates to allow us to get close to succour - we will use them all - it beats chopping up the cabin sole. In 40 years of sailing we have only twice 'lost' steering, both times the cable at the wheel - and this is easily replaced with spare wire and cable clamps (which every cruiser carries.....
).Thinwater - you are very unlucky to have had 'several' steering failures....? Or you are very old
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Only a neophyte would use a Fortress in rocks, they would jamb the flukes and destroy the ability of the anchor to reset in a change of tide/wind. Both Spade and Excel have been tested for shank strength - its does not need repeated.
Just check the tests in Practical Sailor. We carry both - no anchor is perfect - they compliment each other - it is not either, or. Similarly we also carry 2 x Fortress (FX16 and FX37) - the 4 models offer a decent cross section covering most seabeds. All are aluminium alloy - and we anchor in 'the Roaring Forties' using 6mm chain (38' cat x 7t) - I think our long term field tests are satisfactory.
Jonathan
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