Anchor problem, seeking advice

[Neeves]

for the life of me, a quick connector is the last thing I would use anywhere within an anchor rode. If you keep your anchor and chain/rope separately (like I do for my kedge) then at least have a conventional shackle ready and greased on the chain or anchor to join the two. If you want to gild the lily, have a piece of mousing wire ready too. That fitting in the picture is one of the last things I would use for my anchor.

I cannot see any reason not to use a rated shackle from a reputable supplier. If they are from a reputable supplier they are individually Proof Tested, that's to 2 times WLL. Failure of rated shackles from reputable suppliers are simply not reported - suggesting they do not fail. Shackles are simple and simple to use. You need to secure the clevis (or shackle) pin Keep short lengths of mousing wire handy and in known places. Through the hole in the pin seems a good place. . If you like belt and braces - coat the pin with blue Loctite (it sets under water). If you anticipate not releasing the shackle pin - use red Loctite (it also sets under water) - but you may need a blow torch to release the adhesive.

The shackles of choice could be Crosby's G209A shackles - their 3/8th" shackle has a WLL of 2t. Campbell and Peerless in the US make shackles to a similar specification. Their UTS is 10t or 12t. Yoke in Taiwan also makes this quality and a couple of manufacturers in China - but for the life of me I cannot think how you would source. Crosby shackles are freely available in the UK, Tecni (I think based in Bristol). Our primary anchor is attached to the rode with one of the 3 aforementioned US shackles (and I have some of the Yoke and Chinese shackles - which I have tested) and each of our spare anchors has the shackle attached to the anchor. We have a spare rode stored in a milk crate, it also has an attached shackle. We also have a couple of spare shackles attached to the milk crate (shackles can be dropped over board). We do not carry any galvanised shackles of a lower quality - all our other shackles are stainless and cannot be mistaken for anchor shackles. Most shackles in hardware stores are not individually Proof Tested, but (if you are lucky) batch tested and will, for a 3/8th" shackle have a WLL of 1t. A good use for shackles from a hardware store would be for a small dog - but I would not use them on an anchor rode (reports of failure of shackles from nefarious sources do occur. For stg5 - why save money (your anchor and yacht are worth a bit more and hopefully your family are priceless).

I fail understand why there is any debate about how to join an anchor to chain.

Sorry but Thinwater's suggestion has simply too many components holding the device together which are not tested for side loading. Crosby, Peerless, Campbell etc shackles are tested for side loading and lose 50% or strength when loaded at 90 degrees - but as a 8mm G30 chain (a nice match for a 3/8th" shackle) has a WLL of 750kg then these shackles are still stronger than the chain (even if side loaded)

Jonathan

 

[Graham376]

Our anchor lives on one bow roller when at sea, ready for instant launch if needed. When we're on the mooring it lives on the foredeck, still attached to chain, as the mooring strops are over the rollers. If the mooring was to fail, anchor still ready to deploy.

 

[thinwater]

for the life of me, a quick connector is the last thing I would use anywhere within an anchor rode. If you keep your anchor and chain/rope separately (like I do for my kedge) then at least have a conventional shackle ready and greased on the chain or anchor to join the two. If you want to gild the lily, have a piece of mousing wire ready too. That fitting in the picture is one of the last things I would use for my anchor.

a. Only brainstorming.
b. Only smaller boats, where the peak load is well within the WLL. Because these will use rope rode, the rode tension is very unlikely to exceed 1000 pounds, which is no special strain for these.
c. These are used for life-and-death applications, even more serious than anchoring, and they are VERY reliable. Far more tested than most shackles, with perhaps millions in service every day in fall arrest applications. Each one is proof tested to 3500 pounds by US rule. Can you say that of common shackles?
d. I did something very similar (weaker, in fact) for many years, for hundreds of nights and nearly 1000 anchoring cycles on my 27-foot Stiletto. I'm not guessing or supposing. I have no reason to believe it is more risk prone than a rope rode or lightweight anchor (I've had anchors drag, but never a connector fail).

I would not hesitate to use one of these for a second if it solved a problem on my F-24. On my PDQ, no, it would be undersized and is bulkier anyway. But I would use it to attach a snubber... but I would use a wire gate non-locking carabiner for that.

I've seen what these endure in industry. Without a detail explanation and example of how and why it would fail, I feel we are throwing out a concept based on gut, not reason. I have seen non-locking carabiners come loose where used improperly. That said, a disconection mid-rope has probably never happened--there needs to be interaction with a fixed object. There are rare examples of twist-locking carabiners unlocking when pressed against other surfaces just so (which is why you do NOT use carabiners directly on an object when avoidable--I suggested mid-rode, not on the anchor, which I would NEVER do). I have never heard or read of an ANSI locking connector coming loose when linking two flexible points. Please post it. I have searched accident records. I have (and so have you) read of shackles unscrewing, even with mousing. There are also double locking versions.

I'm not sayin' it should be a new trend. Not at all. Moused shackles are simple and clean. Just sayin' there may be answers we have not thought of, for problems we do not commonly consider. For example, the current generation of tether clips (Kong Tango) are derived from industrial connectors because the "marine" versions failed. Some folks like to connect to mooring balls with a snap.

 

[thinwater]

...I fail understand why there is any debate about how to join an anchor to chain.

Sorry but Thinwater's suggestion has simply too many components holding the device together which are not tested for side loading. Crosby, Peerless, Campbell etc shackles are tested for side loading and lose 50% or strength when loaded at 90 degrees - but as a 8mm G30 chain (a nice match for a 3/8th" shackle) has a WLL of 750kg then these shackles are still stronger than the chain (even if side loaded)

Jonathan

I don't think there is a debate, re. quick release or a snap on the anchor shank. I NEVER suggested using anything other than a shackle on the anchor shank. To much potencial for weird loading and abuse. You don't want to add bulk either (limits burying). I don't even like swivels.

BTW, the snap image I posted is tested for cross loading (ANSI Z359 3600-pound cross loading test requirement). Absolutely. This is a great portion (72%) of the aligned force than anchor shackles. And I ONLY suggested it for mid-rode application, where these is no cross load. Why? Because construction workers hook them bad places. These are massive and heavy compared to a 8 mm chain shackle (285 g vs. 50 g, 130 mm long) and are massively strong. It is twice as strong in a cross load as the best jackline tether clips. These really are built for massive, horrible, industrial misuse. You need to use them and handle them to understand them.

Yes, too many moving parts for long-term use. On the other hand, the manner of use (coastal cruising a small boat) is such that it will be inspected daily, and probably only used a handfull of times each year.

---

And this really is just brainstorming and spit balling. That is where new ideas come from.

 

[Neeves]

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And this really is just brainstorming and spit balling. That is where new ideas come from.

Eduard DeBono

I'm all for more of that, off the wall, outside the box, lateral thinking - but spit balling must be an americanism? My guess is that is how LFRs came to life and Barber hauling was born.

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

Spitballing:

Kids that were bored in school 30-50 years ago would chew up bits of paper, form the mess into a wad, and shoot it through a straw at either other students or the ceiling. To "spitball" is to chew on an idea (figurativly written on that bit of paper), shoot it at the ceiling (express the idea to other people in the focus group) and see if it sticks (if the idea has some merit worthy of discussion).

A common figure of speech in business brainstorming meetings, specific to the action of submitting an outside-the-box idea.

 

[fredrussell]

…If you like belt and braces - coat the pin with blue Loctite (it sets under water). If you anticipate not releasing the shackle pin - use red Loctite (it also sets under water) - but you may need a blow torch to release the adhesive.

Loctite blue and red DO NOT set under water!!!
They’re waterproof when cured, but that’s not the same thing.

 

[Neeves]

Loctite blue and red DO NOT set under water!!!
They’re waterproof when cured, but that’s not the same thing.

I apologise, I have tried it. Its an important characteristic as if you need to secure a fixture under water and you can apply the fixture without losing the Loctite you can then be assured the fixture will be cemented safely. For example changing an anode under water (though doing the latter is a bit fiddly and not really recommended). It helps if you are doing something like this to have someone apply the Loctite to the item for you and you then instal.

My original introduction to this characteristic was the need to instal a propellor underwater. Prior I collected all the adhesives we had and tried every single one under water. Loctite was the only one we had that offered security.

Its an easy one to test yourself. Get one of those M8 Alan headed bolts used to secure the anodes on a Volvo prop - use a copious amount of red Loctite, apply under water, in a bucket if you like. Leave to set off , in the bucket- and with red Loctite it will be a devil to release - so have a blow torch handy.

In fact they need water to set (which is why they do not set in a sealed bottle).

Adhesives Test - Practical Sailor

Jonathan

 

[Yealm]

I had an engine failure just after dropping my mooring, in a strong tide, not enough wind for a sail to help and surrounded by expensive GRP. I saved myself much expense and grief by having an anchor ready for immediate deployment. I really don't want to have to rummage around in a locker and faff around with a shackle that's guaranteed to lose it's pin overboard in a situation like that. Even more so on a lee shore in a blow, when a lunch hook wouldn't be enough.

If you haven't anywhere else to store the anchor, the chocks mentioned by LadyInBed would be my choice.

Is the reason you don't want it on the roller because it's used by your mooring pennant? If so, one option might be to fit twin polysteel pennants, one through each bow fairlead, freeing the roller for the anchor. This would also improve the resilience of the mooring and the boat would swing less.

Prefer not to have anchor on bow roller for aesthetics - spoils the clean lines (contessa32) and also sails better without weight at the front.

 

[fredrussell]

….

Show me the bit on the Loctite website/ instructions/ etc that says they cure under water. The first thing they say on instructions is that parts need to be clean and dry. I did loads of research on this as the reverse rollers on my Kiwi prop have to be Loctite red applied. One had loosened and I was keen to avoid a lift out.

 

[Neeves]

Show me the bit on the Loctite website/ instructions/ etc that says they cure under water. The first thing they say on instructions is that parts need to be clean and dry. I did loads of research on this as the reverse rollers on my Kiwi prop have to be Loctite red applied. One had loosened and I was keen to avoid a lift out.

If you read the article and my post I make no mention that Loctite say that their adhesives cures underwater. I simply report on my own testing. Most boat owners carry Loctite - try it. I was in the position similar to you, how to secure a propellor without slipping. I gathered all the adhesives we had on our boat and tried them - and the only one that worked was Loctite. The problem I had was that the tidal range was 30cm and the sail drive never cleared the water. Trying in desperation offers little confidence to a reader, and subscriber, so when we eventually returned home. I tried various Loctite and tested them with a torque wrench as pictured. The results are as quoted. I suggest if you have Loctite in your tool box - try it - and then post your criticisms. All you need is a nut and bolt, a bucket of seawater (and some Loctite). You do need to ensure you do not wash the Loctite off, so be careful.

Note that I tested by covering the thread with Loctite and inserting the coated thread under water. I was not assembling in the dry. I was assembling a coated bolt and inserting the bolt under water and then allowing to cure. When tightened there is no water present it has been, largely but totally, removed by the act of threading the bolt, tight..

I can well believe that Loctite would not endorse the procedure - simply because you have to be careful that when the fixture is inserted into the threaded hole - that the Loctite is still there. The practice is prone to carelessness.

You don't make this sort of thing up .


I recall in days gone by being told that dyneema degrades under UV and its braided cover cannot be removed. Its the same Dyneema today and the same sunshine - lots of uncovered Dyneema. Earlier - sail drives would never catch on. People who have never tried a light anchor say anchors need to be heavy - aluminium ones will not work (despite the success of Fortress). No-one ever believed foiling could work - until it did.

Jonathan

 

[fredrussell]

Oh well. I’ll leave it up to others to decide. Letting Loctite cure under water is a bodge, plain and simple. If people want to bodge, that’s up to them, but I’ll say this again - Loctite thread locker is designed to cure, fully cure, in the dry.

 

[jdc]

Oh well. I’ll leave it up to others to decide. Letting Loctite cure under water is a bodge, plain and simple. If people want to bodge, that’s up to them, but I’ll say this again - Loctite thread locker is designed to cure, fully cure, in the dry.

Although you put it clearly - in black and white - I'm not convinced by your chemistry. I believe that thread lock cures by metal ions catalysing a polymerisation reaction in the absence of Oxygen. Providing the thread lock hasn't been washed away, those conditions will apply just as well in water as in air. This article from a prop manufacturer describes the application of thread lock while under water.

 

[Neeves]

Having read the article, for which thanks, I'm not sure about applying thread lock to the female portion under water. I see the logic in theory but I am not sure how easy it would be to do it in practice. If possible the best option would be to apply the Loctite to the female portions 'in advance' and in the dry. It will be difficult to assess how much thread lock you have applied under water (or you would need very good eyes. The thread lock should not wash out. When we applied Loctite underwater it took two people, even with all the bits and pieces lined up in order on the transom. My wife applied the Loctite and I applied the small bolts. The female hole is small, there is not really much space to play around with and you need to insert the bolt correctly, without allowing the Loctite to wash off. Having said that we were doing this in seawater of 16 degrees C - which I find cold - which reduces the steadiness of ones hands (hence my wife coating the bolt). For a Volvo prop there are 2 small bolts for each of 3 blades plus two locking bolts for the hub and a tab washer - needing one Alan key and two sockets. You should not need to Loctite the two bolts - but we are into belt and braces. You also need to house the blades correctly and insert the stainless pins on which the props rotate to fold - all best done in calm, warm water. Finally you cannot afford to drop anything - the chance of finding it is small.

But - it is possible, when needs must. Just think it through and work through the procedure methodically. Be prepared for it to take a long time.

Its a pleasure to see confirmation of exactly the test I conducted and the suggestion that in fact I was not bodging.

I was actually under the impression that Loctite cured in anaerobic conditions but in the presence of water or more specifically moisture, normally atmospheric. The anaerobic was correct but not the presence of moisture.

Jonathan

 

[oldmanofthehills]

I smiled when I heard the mention of clean lines. Maybe for racing or Regatta, but a cruising boat dealing with changeable weather and similar variability, needs a sturdy anchor, ready to go, clean lines or not.

If the wind gusts up and harbour entrance pier or lee shore beckons while engine decides to rest, then that is not the safe time to swap kedge for a bower anchor or start fiddling with shackles,

Our old boat had anchor on chocks, our last two kept or keep it on bow roller, with mooring lines through fairleads. Didnt sit quite straight on the mooring but wind over tide always ruined perfect symmetry anyway.

Our pitiful chain locker is over crowded with 60m of 8mm. It would nice if it was bigger but never mind

 

[Yealm]

I smiled when I heard the mention of clean lines. Maybe for racing or Regatta, but a cruising boat dealing with changeable weather and similar variability, needs a sturdy anchor, ready to go, clean lines or not.

If the wind gusts up and harbour entrance pier or lee shore beckons while engine decides to rest, then that is not the safe time to swap kedge for a bower anchor or start fiddling with shackles,

Our old boat had anchor on chocks, our last two kept or keep it on bow roller, with mooring lines through fairleads. Didnt sit quite straight on the mooring but wind over tide always ruined perfect symmetry anyway.

Our pitiful chain locker is over crowded with 60m of 8mm. It would nice if it was bigger but never mind

Mmm I don't think hoicking it over the side would be much quicker if it's was on the bow roller or in a locker. (at least for my boat's set up). Maybe a couple of seconds difference in an emergency situation..

 

[Frogmogman]

At the risk of kicking off a riot over the relative merits of different anchors, dare I suggest that the Rocna, it’s excellent qualities notwithstanding, is quite a bulky bit of kit for such a fine prow as a Contessa 32. Certainly the one that was bought for the Swan 43 I sometimes race on went back to the chandlers as it just didn’t fit.

There are other excellent anchors out there that are less of an encumbrance; the spade, for example.

I’m now hiding behind my sofa.