Anchor chain piling up

[NormanS]

That is the key point. you configure your anchoring gear to suit the demands you place on it. As I explained earlier in the eastern Med i found you sometimes needed extra over the 50m I had, but it was usually in benign conditions as you would not want to anchor in that sort of location in a blow. So no problem retrieving the extra 10 or 20m of rope by hand. Where I sail now it is rare that 50m is not enough so rope would be added when needed. Chain has an easily accessible shackle on the bitter end and rope has a spliced eye on it so easy to attach if needed.

Except that, as already pointed out, when heaving in, it's much more difficult to get enough chain back aboard, to get it over the gypsy and reattached to the boat. Certainly not impossible, but a guddle in non-benign conditions. I know that we've drifted a wee bit away from chain stowage, but if this part of the thread even makes people consider just how they would extend their rode when needed, then I think that's probably a good thing.

 

[Bouba]

Someone will enlighten me - but I have never quite understood why the anchor and/or chain locker might open into the forepeak. I note someone earlier mentioned they went into the forepeak to topple the tower. I do know of two yachts, one a cat and one a yacht, that filled their bow locker, with seawater, when sailing to windward into breaking seas - if your chain locker opens into the forepeak I can imagine where all the water might go. The bow/chain/anchor locker seem ideal as a crash locker - so why have them open to the bulk of the yacht?

I don't think it matters whether you have a vertical or horizontal windlass - the rode will be directed to the locker below. Really retrieval should be a 2 part process, retrieve all the rope, take it all out and stow in a corner of the locker (preferably hanging) and then retrieve all the chain so the chain lies in the bottom of the locker. This is what Baba Yaga seems to do, with slight variation. The ideal would be a flat bottomed locker when you could have the rope on one side and the chain on the other but as most lockers are some form of inverted pyramid, as illustrated by Baba, this is not possible. Another factor I notice is that windlass appear to be installed with no thought for servicing by the owner as access to dismantle the windlass, even to look at the oil level in the gearbox, is virtually impossible.

I note Baba must use Loctite for his shackle - as he has dispensed with mousing wire. Obviously on a small yacht an unrated 'D' shackle might be more than adequate - I'd prefer a rated bow shackle

I note that many modern yachts now have halyards, reefing lines etc in tunnels leaving a clear deck. I have wondered why the same is not done for chain 'down/across' the bow to forward of the mast. Have mast located windlass and the chain locker underneath, draining into a sump at the mast foot. It would centralise weight and leave the bow free (or more free). A tunnel for chain would not be obtrusive to the accomodation below. Its not an original idea - many catamarans already do this, though the said locker is usually a monster and space is not an issue (and it does centralise the weight). Certainly if I were having a custom yacht built it is something I would debate with the builder and want good reasons for not doing it - weight in the bow, that could be amidships, lacks any logic.

Jonathan

I’ve followed Jonathan’s advice and ordered a Crosby G209A Full Alloy Steel Anchor Bow Shackle

 

[Neeves]

Bouba,

At least someone is taking note!

Its easy with 6mm chain to hand retrieve, if there was wind we'ed use the engine to hold the boat - but you can haul 6mm aboard and hold it with one hand. Having hauled 8mm chain on board it is also possible but you are starting to get to the point when holding it one handed to get a chain claw on becomes slightly more difficult - my guess is that with 10mm chain its impossible (and if you add the weight of the anchor, possibly filled with mud, faffing about is simply not going to work.

You can of course use a deck winch to haul in the rope, attach a chain hook, disengage the rope, feed the chain through the gypsy, attach the bitter end, retrieve using the windlass.

Our chain claw is on a dyneema strop, as mentioned used as back up for the bridle and as a chain stop when at sea, thus holding the anchor should the clutch slip. Our dyneema is attached to a strong point. You could equally use a chain hook. Both a claw and a hook are easy to attach. We also use the claw when we are power setting the anchor and if its so well set it is difficult to retrieve. The reason being - keep the load off the windlass. We are not afraid we will bend the windlass shank (they look very robust) but the seals at the end of the shank - that stops the water getting into the gearbox is more delicate and we see no reason to load the bolts (nor reinforcement) attaching the windlass to the boat itself.

Mixed rodes with 10mm must have a splice that passes through a gypsy - or most people will never deploy the rope - and that defeats the object of the exercise.

The thread has drifted - but hopefully it has been useful, apologies to the OP

Matching rope strength to chain strength when you are using a mixed rode with a G70, G80 or G100 chain is not an issue when its a second rode and is only hand deployed. The rope used is the same as you would use for a mixed rode through a windlass with G30/40/43 - it is big for the high tensile chain but that does not matter as it does not pass through the windlass and you will have connecting link big enough. The advantage of using G70/80/100 is that instead of hauling in 10mm chain you are only hauling in 8mm and if you go for G100 (and the manufacturer/convertor gets it right) you are hauling in 8mm chain instead of 12mm chain. In fact HT chain is ideal as a second rode, that you might deploy from a dinghy, as its smaller and lighter for the same strength.

Which brings me back to the OP. One way to reduce towering, or the impact of towering, is to use smaller chain. If its galvanised it will still tower but you will retrieve more chain before the tower becomes an issue - and its easier to knock over. Most people who bow to the cult of catenary use chain that is too big (I take note of these things!) and a decent snubber and a bit more confidence in the integrity of chain - and you could very often be using the next chain size down. I accept that buying a new gypsy is a major if not insurmountable deterrent.

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

Slightly off topic, but relevant to some.

It is generally accepted that the end of the chain should be secured with something you can cut. Cutting chain with a hack saw on a bouncing deck, in the rain, at night sucks. Many people like a lashing, but splicing a length or rope, perhaps no more than 2-3 meters, has some advantages:

1. It will absorb some shock if you fall back on the end of the chain by accident. Less likely to rip the pad eye out.
2. It will run up through the hawse pipe and windlass to where you can reach it on deck. This makes it MUCH easier to reach if you must cut the chain free in bad conditions. No climbing into the chain locker or ducking below. Not a problem for most chain lockers, but a real issue for some.

This is not a combination rode. This is replacing the terminal lashing with a few meters of rope.

 

[Lon nan Gruagach]

I'm certainly not being grumpy. I don't do grumpy. I merely asked for clarification.:encouragement: (and still am).

Ok, you can name the shape. Something that has a circular cross section, parallel sides and a domed or pointy end. Call it a sharp sausage if you like.
Since chain isn't made of particles it won't stack like particles. A small pile may be conical, a medium one will tend more to a sharp sausage, a very large pile will revert to a cone.

 

[NormanS]

Norman,

I'm with you on this.

To have the need to, secure with a chain hook, release the chain (to me is a last resort), feed the bitter end through the gypsy, attach a shackle (mouse the shackle) and rope and then feed the rope round a capstan and then continue to deploy is more than just a faff - I'd need to be really desperate - and the risk of an error does not bear thinking about.

Anchoring has to be easy and foolproof - or it will not be done, or done incorrectly. I accept Blowing demonstrates it is possible and as he is here and posting - it can be done safely.

I'd want the rope rode spliced to the bitter end, see Thinwater's post earlier, and I would need to devise a way to allow me to 'collect' the rope once it had passed through the hawser pipe. Our windlass accepts both chain and rope through the gypsy. Though in our case - the chain being high tensile needs a decent diameter of rope to offer commensurate strength - and that diameter is too big for the gypsy. So - if you have G70 chain and a mixed rode - it is very likely, unless you are using dyneema (which floats), that the rope is sufficiently strong for the chain. Its one of those applications that will be different dependent on your layout.

For us its not a big issue as if we needed more than our 75m of chain we would, instead, deploy a spare rode by hand - simple when its 6mm chain and rope - but a major undertaking if its a decent length of 10mm chain plus rope. But however it is done I would be most uncomfortable in having the bitter end, of the chain, unsecured.

We once anchored in 10m depth, I know not deep. We only had 30m of chain (another story) - it was very sheltered. Any way we deployed the lot - there was a 'bang' and the shackle (stainless) holding the bitter end to the U bolt failed. I watched the bitter end running over the bow roller like a snake disappearing down a rabbit hole. I did think of grabbing it - but thought better of it. We had a spare rode, and anchor. it took most of the next day to find the chain and retrieve. It was a cheap and salutary lesson (I was younger then!).

Jonathan

Edit

We use the same, or similar, gypsy to GHA - of which Maxwell are very proud (the design of the gypsy I mean!)

Ours is an RC 6-8. Its built for 8mm chain but has a 6mm gypsy (and we optioned a 1,000 watt motor)

https://www.keoghsmarine.com.au/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=2739

GHA's windlass is horizontal - the shaft is horizontal. Ours is a vertical, the shaft is vertical. We don't have the rope drum on ours - I don't see the need, for our configuration, and it would not fit inside the locker (and we have 2 winches on the mast about 1500mm aft of the windlass location). A horizontal windlass takes (grips) the chain through, approximately, 90 degrees, a vertical through 270 degrees. Vertical windlass can be almost flush mounted to the deck, just the gypsy protruding - but all the mechanisms, gear box and motor under the deck (and hidden away) - and as I mention inaccessible..

Close edit

In nitpicking mode: I would suggest that even with a horizontal gypsy, the most contact you'll get is 180°.

 

[NormanS]

Ok, you can name the shape. Something that has a circular cross section, parallel sides and a domed or pointy end. Call it a sharp sausage if you like.
Since chain isn't made of particles it won't stack like particles. A small pile may be conical, a medium one will tend more to a sharp sausage, a very large pile will revert to a cone.

Why??

 

[KellysEye]

Jane, my crew, used to hand feed it side to side in the locker, I would bring the chain up in bursts.

 

[Neeves]

In nitpicking mode: I would suggest that even with a horizontal gypsy, the most contact you'll get is 180°.

Nitpicking accepted - I've never thought to measure it - but the chain seems to feed in at about 270 degrees from where it spits it down the hawse pipe. I guess it does not truly engage immediately and might disengage earlier than it looks - but its higher contact than t'other - not that it matters they both seem to work well. I have not noticed many, or any, complaints on this learned site - in fact despite them being abused, who services their windlass?, windlass are surprisingly trouble free.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Jane, my crew, used to hand feed it side to side in the locker, I would bring the chain up in bursts.

Sadly, I'm the crew - the skipper runs the yacht and she will not pay for extra hands (she has adopted many Scots traits) - and come to that only pays me in kind . I certainly don't think she would tolerate anyone like a 'Jane' and I would not want the skipper to think I'm going to hand feed chain (that's what the windlass is for).

Jonathan

 

[rogerthebodger]

Nitpicking accepted - I've never thought to measure it - but the chain seems to feed in at about 270 degrees from where it spits it down the hawse pipe. I guess it does not truly engage immediately and might disengage earlier than it looks - but its higher contact than t'other - not that it matters they both seem to work well. I have not noticed many, or any, complaints on this learned site - in fact despite them being abused, who services their windlass?, windlass are surprisingly trouble free.

Jonathan

Its almost impossible to get 270 degree wrap around a horonzial gypsy if the chain hits the gypsy in the horizontal plain it also very unlikly that the will be 180 degrees wrap as that would mean thet the chain was returning the same way the chan was being pulled in.

Most horizontal windlass will only have a 90 degree wrap at the chain comes onto the windlass horizontal and then exits the windlass vertically as it enters the chain locker.

A vertical windlass generally have a 180 degree wrap then changes direction to the vertical to enter the chain locker.

Chain hoists have a 180 degree wrap lifting vertically and exiting the gypsy also vertically in the opersit direction

 

[Lon nan Gruagach]

Ok, you can name the shape. Something that has a circular cross section, parallel sides and a domed or pointy end. Call it a sharp sausage if you like.
Since chain isn't made of particles it won't stack like particles. A small pile may be conical, a medium one will tend more to a sharp sausage, a very large pile will revert to a cone.

Why??

Why in deed!

The fundamental difference between chain and sand is that sand doesn’t hold hands, chain can easily form a loop that will not slide down the side, being stuck across the middle of the heap.
So, for small heaps then a cone will form since the heap isnt wide enough to trap a loop that way. Large heaps will fall over as would piles of sand. Medium sized heaps, however will be far more stable than any pile of particulate matter, being stable means that they can build straight up without the need for sloping sides.
Small, medium and large are technical terms whose actual value is a function of chain dimensions and material.

 

[NormanS]

Why in deed!

The fundamental difference between chain and sand is that sand doesn’t hold hands, chain can easily form a loop that will not slide down the side, being stuck across the middle of the heap.
So, for small heaps then a cone will form since the heap isnt wide enough to trap a loop that way. Large heaps will fall over as would piles of sand. Medium sized heaps, however will be far more stable than any pile of particulate matter, being stable means that they can build straight up without the need for sloping sides.
Small, medium and large are technical terms whose actual value is a function of chain dimensions and material.

Sounds brilliant. You'll have to come and speak sternly to my chain. For reasons best known to itself, it insists on forming itself into a cone. Once the tip of the cone gets too high, it gets pushed over with the windlass handle, or my foot.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Why in deed!

The fundamental difference between chain and sand is that sand doesn’t hold hands, chain can easily form a loop that will not slide down the side, being stuck across the middle of the heap.
So, for small heaps then a cone will form since the heap isnt wide enough to trap a loop that way. Large heaps will fall over as would piles of sand. Medium sized heaps, however will be far more stable than any pile of particulate matter, being stable means that they can build straight up without the need for sloping sides.
Small, medium and large are technical terms whose actual value is a function of chain dimensions and material.

You need to get off your island a bit more.

 

[Lon nan Gruagach]

You need to get off your island a bit more.

Whaa? And join the rat race and have no time to ponder what it is to be a chain.

 

[Neeves]

Its almost impossible to get 270 degree wrap around a horonzial gypsy if the chain hits the gypsy in the horizontal plain it also very unlikly that the will be 180 degrees wrap as that would mean thet the chain was returning the same way the chan was being pulled in.

/QUOTE]

I checked our windlass - the chain enters and leaves the gypsy in the same direction, so comes in from the bow roller round the gypsy and exits the gypsy parallel to the way it is retrieved (like Roger's chain hoist - except in the horizontal. The hawse pipe (sounds quite serious for a hole in the deck) and the exiting chain is effectively parallel to the incoming chain. It thus has a complete 180 degrees wrap plus any overlap, which will not be great, as it enters and leaves the gypsy.


To enter the fray on chain towers - ours looks like London's Gherkin office building - a curved cone or a bowed cylinder. Whereas it might become a cylinder ours is not high enough to achieve this. But the point at which the tower becomes a cylinder will depend on the size of chain and on what it is made from. One benefit of stainless (and to a lessor extent our Armorgalv coating) is that it is more slippery and towers less easily - it might form a cylinder if you had enough chain and deep enough locker - but I don't think that is achieved (or people with stainless chain would, also, be complaining).

Getting back on focus - I vaguely recall someone once mentioning they oiled their chain, though whether this was reduce to corrosion or to make is more slippery in the locker - I don't recall. I would have though the oil would be removed very quickly - and make the locker even more difficult to clean

Jonathan