Anchor chain piling up

[BabaYaga]

A problem with mixed rodes is that the rope does lie in the bottom of the locker. The rope, whether used or not, holds water - the water evaporates, condenses on the locker walls or lid and ensures the chain is kept perpetually damp - alternatively the water (dampness) simply wicks up through the chain. Rope also holds mud and as many lockers open into the forepeak they provide a less than fresh ocean bottom smell to permeate aft. Really any cordage needs to be separated from he chain, until it is actually needed, and preferable stored 'high up' in the locker so that it can drain and not be constantly showered with seawater every time the chain is retrieved.

As chain should be regularly washed with fresh water, to remove both salt and mud - the rope should enjoy the same privilege (it will help maximise chain life). Similarly the chain locker hatch should be left open whenever possible to maximise opportunity for the contents to dry out (and/or be washed by rain).

And make sure the locker drains freely! and is not blocked by the rope.

Jonathan

I think that mixed rodes would perhaps be used more, at least for smaller boats, if not practically all windlasses had that integrated chain pipe, which makes it more complicated to handle the rope part as outlined above.
I have 20m of 8mm chain followed by 45m och 14mm multiplait and no windlass (yet).
When retrieving the anchor I first coil the rope, in two bundles, and leave them on the fore deck. Then continue with the chain, filling the chain 'shaft' and finally put the rope bundles on top.
If I install an electric windlass in the future, I would very much prefer to be able to take the rope by hand and only engaging the windlass for the heavy bit, that is lifting the anchor.

 

[Tranona]

This is a subject like many where there is no right or wrong - it depends on many variables and particularly your common anchoring regime. On my last boat which was kept in the eastern Med i had 50m chain and 30m rope spliced on. Using all the chain and a bit of rope was common as suggested earlier because many anchorages had a steep shelf close to shore so although the boat was in maybe 5-10m water the anchor could be in 30m - anchored with a line to shore.

Now I have a similar boat in the UK and 50m chain is more than adequate so no spliced on rope, but a long warp that can be added if necessary (so far never used). The bulk of rope sitting in the bottom of the locker unused would also take up too much room in a deep narrow locker.

 

[NormanS]

The universe isn't black and white.

And doesn't have to be such a grumpy place either.

I'm certainly not being grumpy. I don't do grumpy. I merely asked for clarification.:encouragement: (and still am).

 

[thinwater]

A problem with mixed rodes is that the rope does lie in the bottom of the locker. The rope, whether used or not, holds water - the water evaporates, condenses on the locker walls or lid and ensures the chain is kept perpetually damp - alternatively the water (dampness) simply wicks up through the chain. Rope also holds mud and as many lockers open into the forepeak they provide a less than fresh ocean bottom smell to permeate aft. Really any cordage needs to be separated from he chain, until it is actually needed, and preferable stored 'high up' in the locker so that it can drain and not be constantly showered with seawater every time the chain is retrieved.

As chain should be regularly washed with fresh water, to remove both salt and mud - the rope should enjoy the same privilege (it will help maximise chain life). Similarly the chain locker hatch should be left open whenever possible to maximise opportunity for the contents to dry out (and/or be washed by rain).

And make sure the locker drains freely! and is not blocked by the rope.

Jonathan

True enough. Fortunately for me, the chain locker on my boat had a nice drain and was bulkheaded from the rest of the boat. Rinsing the rode was a matter of lowering the whole string at dock, hosing down the locker, and then reloading the rode while hosing the roller area. A 10 minute task I performed every year or two. I was spoiled. I suppose it reduced the chain life some amount, but I got >10 years each time, so that was fine.

The root of the problem is poorly designed lockers. With a locker built for the purpose, many things are possible. A combination rode was easy and practical for me. There's no way I would have tolerated the weight of all-chain. Adding the rope only when need would make a lot of sense for a horizontal windlass. In my locker, I could just coil it and hang it on one side, shackle attached and ready to go. Vertical windlasses are more of a pain to feed, so I am undecided there. I think I would stay with the irony splice and not worry about it.

 

[Neeves]

Someone will enlighten me - but I have never quite understood why the anchor and/or chain locker might open into the forepeak. I note someone earlier mentioned they went into the forepeak to topple the tower. I do know of two yachts, one a cat and one a yacht, that filled their bow locker, with seawater, when sailing to windward into breaking seas - if your chain locker opens into the forepeak I can imagine where all the water might go. The bow/chain/anchor locker seem ideal as a crash locker - so why have them open to the bulk of the yacht?

I don't think it matters whether you have a vertical or horizontal windlass - the rode will be directed to the locker below. Really retrieval should be a 2 part process, retrieve all the rope, take it all out and stow in a corner of the locker (preferably hanging) and then retrieve all the chain so the chain lies in the bottom of the locker. This is what Baba Yaga seems to do, with slight variation. The ideal would be a flat bottomed locker when you could have the rope on one side and the chain on the other but as most lockers are some form of inverted pyramid, as illustrated by Baba, this is not possible. Another factor I notice is that windlass appear to be installed with no thought for servicing by the owner as access to dismantle the windlass, even to look at the oil level in the gearbox, is virtually impossible.

I note Baba must use Loctite for his shackle - as he has dispensed with mousing wire. Obviously on a small yacht an unrated 'D' shackle might be more than adequate - I'd prefer a rated bow shackle

I note that many modern yachts now have halyards, reefing lines etc in tunnels leaving a clear deck. I have wondered why the same is not done for chain 'down/across' the bow to forward of the mast. Have mast located windlass and the chain locker underneath, draining into a sump at the mast foot. It would centralise weight and leave the bow free (or more free). A tunnel for chain would not be obtrusive to the accomodation below. Its not an original idea - many catamarans already do this, though the said locker is usually a monster and space is not an issue (and it does centralise the weight). Certainly if I were having a custom yacht built it is something I would debate with the builder and want good reasons for not doing it - weight in the bow, that could be amidships, lacks any logic.

Jonathan

 

[Tranona]

Someone will enlighten me - but I have never quite understood why the anchor and/or chain locker might open into the forepeak. I note someone earlier mentioned they went into the forepeak to topple the tower. I do know of two yachts, one a cat and one a yacht, that filled their bow locker, with seawater, when sailing to windward into breaking seas - if your chain locker opens into the forepeak I can imagine where all the water might go. The bow/chain/anchor locker seem ideal as a crash locker - so why have them open to the bulk of the yacht?


Jonathan

Not uncommon in older boats where there is no anchor locker with access from the deck. The chain is led down a hawse pipe to a locker below decks, which in turn often drained into the bilge. it is usually separated from the boat by a bulkhead with an access hatch so you can sort the chain out. The now almost universal deck access anchor locker is a relatively recent development. My old wooden boat built in 1963 does not even have a bulkhead, the chain drops from the windlass into a chute which takes it down to a locker between the two forward berths - and of course it jams so there is a need to dash down below to poke it free!. You don't get water in it as there is a plug for the hawse.

 

[Neeves]

Thanks Tranona - I'm obviously not old enough

and need to get out more!

Jonathan

 

[NormanS]

I anchor every day that I'm out, and even with a deckwash hose and the best will in the world, some mud/sand/muck comes in with the chain. One of the advantages of having the chain locker up forward is that it is easy to have it self draining. While weight distribution would be better with the chain stowed back at the mast, any form of self draining would be more difficult to achieve.

I'm still wondering about the actual mechanics of working with a mixed rode. I have an electric windlass with a horizontal shaft and a vertical chain gypsy. (I never know whether this counts as a "horizontal" or "vertical" windlass). But anyway, the chain passes over the gypsy and straight down into the chain locker. I can see that with a chain/rope gypsy, and rope spliced to the end link of the chain, how that would work, although if I did have that, I would do as Jonathan advocates, and by retrieving the rope out through the deck hatch, as it came in off the gypsy, arrange to stow it separately from the chain.

Some however, are suggesting having a length of rope temporarily shackled to the end of the chain, when and if required. This would seem much more difficult. At what stage, and how, do you attach/detach the shackle? I can see lots of fumbling about with chain hooks or rolling hitches, just when I want things to go smoothly without any hitches (!) Any suggestions from people using shackled mixed rides in the real world of anchoring?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I anchor every day that I'm out, and even with a deckwash hose and the best will in the world, some mud/sand/muck comes in with the chain. One of the advantages of having the chain locker up forward is that it is easy to have it self draining. While weight distribution would be better with the chain stowed back at the mast, any form of self draining would be more difficult to achieve.

I'm still wondering about the actual mechanics of working with a mixed rode. I have an electric windlass with a horizontal shaft and a vertical chain gypsy. (I never know whether this counts as a "horizontal" or "vertical" windlass). But anyway, the chain passes over the gypsy and straight down into the chain locker. I can see that with a chain/rope gypsy, and rope spliced to the end link of the chain, how that would work, although if I did have that, I would do as Jonathan advocates, and by retrieving the rope out through the deck hatch, as it came in off the gypsy, arrange to stow it separately from the chain.

Some however, are suggesting having a length of rope temporarily shackled to the end of the chain, when and if required. This would seem much more difficult. At what stage, and how, do you attach/detach the shackle? I can see lots of fumbling about with chain hooks or rolling hitches, just when I want things to go smoothly without any hitches (!) Any suggestions from people using shackled mixed rides in the real world of anchoring?

It is a bit of a faff with exactly what you describe chain hooks. My warping drum is on the opposite side to the gypsy so I lead the rope around the forestay to attach to the anchor chain. Chain hook is made off to the mid ship cleat on a length of line so that it reaches forwards of the windlass/ I then use the cleat to ease the chain over the roller until the warp takes tension. 10mm x 80m chain, last 5m of chain has orange strips through the links. If there was a strong wind and bucking deck, it would be dangerous but doable. I have a wide stem head fitting so most shackles and stuff fits through.

 

[BabaYaga]

Another factor I notice is that windlass appear to be installed with no thought for servicing by the owner as access to dismantle the windlass, even to look at the oil level in the gearbox, is virtually impossible.

I note Baba must use Loctite for his shackle - as he has dispensed with mousing wire. Obviously on a small yacht an unrated 'D' shackle might be more than adequate - I'd prefer a rated bow shackle

As mentioned in my post, there is nothing to service or dismantle – yet.

Loctite is fine IMO. Also, the pin is cut short of the eye to allow passing through the anchor roller without snagging, so there is nothing to mouse to.

 

[NormanS]

It is a bit of a faff with exactly what you describe chain hooks. My warping drum is on the opposite side to the gypsy so I lead the rope around the forestay to attach to the anchor chain. Chain hook is made off to the mid ship cleat on a length of line so that it reaches forwards of the windlass/ I then use the cleat to ease the chain over the roller until the warp takes tension. 10mm x 80m chain, last 5m of chain has orange strips through the links. If there was a strong wind and bucking deck, it would be dangerous but doable. I have a wide stem head fitting so most shackles and stuff fits through.

Yes, but at least with 80m of chain, I wouldn't think you'll do it very often. Two points. I'm quite twitchy about letting the bitter end go, but I suppose if the chain is secure with chainhook and warp to cleat, that would be OK.
What you describe is fine for dropping chain/rope. How about heaving in. If you're using the warping drum to heave in, the shackle and then the chain, will stop short of the drum. What do you do then? I can think of ways, but they either involve making the rope fast to the chain some distance from the end, with probably a special shackle, or else involve using a chain hook and a winch, so as to get enough chain to get it over the gypsy.

 

[Neeves]

Baba, I too use Loctite - but shackle failure for a variety of reasons is one of the main reasons anchor makers stay in business - so I really like to have affirmation that shackles are secured (thanks - you set a good example!). I was unsure if the end of the clevis pin of the shackle was missing or it was some quirk of the image - but that also explains why you use a 'D' shackle - a bow shackle would be too big.

Loctite is fine - I've tested it and I'm more than comfortable. I once use some 'red' Loctite liberally - the sort that is suggested heat is needed to release - I could not subsequently move the pin - and as suggested needed a blow torch (toy really, but perfectly adequate - its one Josephine uses to make Creme Brûlée - which I assume, everyone carries ). Loctite also sets under water, so you can apply (in the rain if you want) and deploy.

There was no suggestion your, yet to be bought and installed, windlass installation was at fault - I was generalising. I look at windlass installations and think how easy it was to install - and how impossible for the new owner to service. I see windlass where the hawser pipe discharges the chain down the side of the motor casing - when the motor could have been located through 180 degrees. Many modern windlass come with a sight glass for the oil - but unless you have a head the size of a cat - for most installations you cannot see them. I look at anchor lockers - and think - afterthought. No wonder chains corrode! and its a good thing many windlass are bullet proof.

Jonathan

 

[GHA]

It is a bit of a faff with exactly what you describe chain hooks. My warping drum is on the opposite side to the gypsy so I lead the rope around the forestay to attach to the anchor chain. Chain hook is made off to the mid ship cleat on a length of line so that it reaches forwards of the windlass/ I then use the cleat to ease the chain over the roller until the warp takes tension. 10mm x 80m chain, last 5m of chain has orange strips through the links. If there was a strong wind and bucking deck, it would be dangerous but doable. I have a wide stem head fitting so most shackles and stuff fits through.

My gypsy has a slot in it, extra 50m anchor plait jams in the slot so the windlass works as normal though the splice needs a hand to get round the gypsy. 60m chain so rare to actually need any extra rope .

 

[Neeves]

Norman,

I'm with you on this.

To have the need to, secure with a chain hook, release the chain (to me is a last resort), feed the bitter end through the gypsy, attach a shackle (mouse the shackle) and rope and then feed the rope round a capstan and then continue to deploy is more than just a faff - I'd need to be really desperate - and the risk of an error does not bear thinking about.

Anchoring has to be easy and foolproof - or it will not be done, or done incorrectly. I accept Blowing demonstrates it is possible and as he is here and posting - it can be done safely.

I'd want the rope rode spliced to the bitter end, see Thinwater's post earlier, and I would need to devise a way to allow me to 'collect' the rope once it had passed through the hawser pipe. Our windlass accepts both chain and rope through the gypsy. Though in our case - the chain being high tensile needs a decent diameter of rope to offer commensurate strength - and that diameter is too big for the gypsy. So - if you have G70 chain and a mixed rode - it is very likely, unless you are using dyneema (which floats), that the rope is sufficiently strong for the chain. Its one of those applications that will be different dependent on your layout.

For us its not a big issue as if we needed more than our 75m of chain we would, instead, deploy a spare rode by hand - simple when its 6mm chain and rope - but a major undertaking if its a decent length of 10mm chain plus rope. But however it is done I would be most uncomfortable in having the bitter end, of the chain, unsecured.

We once anchored in 10m depth, I know not deep. We only had 30m of chain (another story) - it was very sheltered. Any way we deployed the lot - there was a 'bang' and the shackle (stainless) holding the bitter end to the U bolt failed. I watched the bitter end running over the bow roller like a snake disappearing down a rabbit hole. I did think of grabbing it - but thought better of it. We had a spare rode, and anchor. it took most of the next day to find the chain and retrieve. It was a cheap and salutary lesson (I was younger then!).

Jonathan

Edit

We use the same, or similar, gypsy to GHA - of which Maxwell are very proud (the design of the gypsy I mean!)

Ours is an RC 6-8. Its built for 8mm chain but has a 6mm gypsy (and we optioned a 1,000 watt motor)

https://www.keoghsmarine.com.au/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=2739

GHA's windlass is horizontal - the shaft is horizontal. Ours is a vertical, the shaft is vertical. We don't have the rope drum on ours - I don't see the need, for our configuration, and it would not fit inside the locker (and we have 2 winches on the mast about 1500mm aft of the windlass location). A horizontal windlass takes (grips) the chain through, approximately, 90 degrees, a vertical through 270 degrees. Vertical windlass can be almost flush mounted to the deck, just the gypsy protruding - but all the mechanisms, gear box and motor under the deck (and hidden away) - and as I mention inaccessible..

Close edit

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Yes, but at least with 80m of chain, I wouldn't think you'll do it very often. Two points. I'm quite twitchy about letting the bitter end go, but I suppose if the chain is secure with chainhook and warp to cleat, that would be OK.
What you describe is fine for dropping chain/rope. How about heaving in. If you're using the warping drum to heave in, the shackle and then the chain, will stop short of the drum. What do you do then? I can think of ways, but they either involve making the rope fast to the chain some distance from the end, with probably a special shackle, or else involve using a chain hook and a winch, so as to get enough chain to get it over the gypsy.

To be honest hauling warp by hand is no big deal and it is easy to haul it on the chain side and get the shackle on board the correct side of the forestay. If there was wind and strain bringing the shackle to the warping drum and placing the chain hook on the chain forward of the stemmed fitting is how I do it. Then I have to work the end of the chain back round, get the bitter end tied to the chain and then haul a foot or so to get it onto the gypsy. A faff but not impossible, also not impossible to always have the chain secured x 2 so if the chain hook disengaged then the anchor is not lost. However, a faff and not convenient for every day anchoring.

I don't fret about it, if it needs to be done, I do it and the method is safe enough.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

..... - I'd need to be really desperate - and the risk of an error does not bear thinking about.

Anchoring has to be easy and foolproof - or it will not be done, or done incorrectly. I accept Blowing demonstrates it is possible and as he is here and posting - it can be done safely. .....

It is easy and it can be done fool proof, no need for desperate times, just an anchorage or situation that needs more rode than you have chain. I thought everyone who sailed seriously would have a way of lengthening their rode without significant additional probability of failure. Do you not have a method of doing this? My bitter end comes to the gypsy with a fibre rope tail shacked to the chain and strong point in the anchor locker. Some folks have knotted chains at the bitter end and some have devices that fit round the chain but all need to have a way to get the end of the chain out to the gypsy such that is always secured.

 

[NormanS]

To be honest hauling warp by hand is no big deal and it is easy to haul it on the chain side and get the shackle on board the correct side of the forestay. If there was wind and strain bringing the shackle to the warping drum and placing the chain hook on the chain forward of the stemmed fitting is how I do it. Then I have to work the end of the chain back round, get the bitter end tied to the chain and then haul a foot or so to get it onto the gypsy. A faff but not impossible, also not impossible to always have the chain secured x 2 so if the chain hook disengaged then the anchor is not lost. However, a faff and not convenient for every day anchoring.

I don't fret about it, if it needs to be done, I do it and the method is safe enough.

Yes, if conditions are such that you can do it by hand, it'll be easy enough. My previous boat had a 140lb anchor and 16mm chain, so doing things by hand was not an option. Even now, with a smaller boat and lighter gear, I don't like to rely on conditions being calm enough, or shallow enough to be able to cope with anchoring loads by hand.

So I think I'll just stick with my all chain rode. If I feel that it's not going to be sufficient, I'll lay out another anchor.

 

[Neeves]

B.O.B.,

In answer to your question.

We have a spare rode of 15m of chain and 40m of 3 ply nylon and then other warps that we use for shore lines - I can easily extend our 55m of spare rode around 200m - if push come to shove - though with a yacht drawing 1m and tides in Tasmania of 0.3m that's not an issue we would normally need to worry about! (shore lines are more useful). Like Norman - if we were twitchy we would deploy a second anchor - rather than 'faff' about adding extra rode.

But give me the need to anchor in 20m and I may quickly change my mind.

Our primary rode of 75m is shackled into the chain locker to a 'U' bolt and I could secure with a claw, release the shackle and bring the bitter end onto the deck, in the same way you do (we use the claw as our chain lock every time we anchor as the backup should the bridle fail and to secure the anchor on passage). But it would be much easier to use the spare rode (but this would not be so easy if we had bigger link chain - as Norman mentions).

There is no right way - its about having the gear, your point about sailing seriously, and knowing the options. 'Anchoring' does not need an anchor - if you have enough places to secure shore lines etc.

I think you might be surprised as to how many, by your definition, do not sail seriously

Many people do not have a spare anchor (and many that do would not want to depend on the spare they carry, too small, wrong design etc) and similarly have no spare rode - how do I know - we have met them subsequent to them losing their only anchor.

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

The real world answer is that you splice the rope to the chain. Perhaps shortens the life of the chain by some percent, but I'm not convinced the difference is large, not in my experience. The corrosion on the chain in contact with the potentially wet rope is no worse than the rest of chain, except for the last link, so the splice must be redone every 5 years or so.

If an irony splice is used it will fly through the combination gypsy without a hitch. Really. Unless you have tried it, don't accept that jamming is a problem. It is very smooth.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bRN8JZFKTLU/Vy9CZfjqPxI/AAAAAAAAMXU/0-bzCo6-KuwlHYaI5YOkBa5-ehbESXCyACLcB/s1600/Irony%2BSplice%2Bcropped.jpg

So forget the hypothetical ways to add rope and just splice it on. It really is just that simple. The only downside is that you cannot use better than grade 43 chain. The reason is that the rope that will fit is too weak to match the chain. But I'm guessing only one person on the thread is actually using grade 70 or grade 100.

---

I too wondered if someone was going to point out the challenge of cleaning a bilge chain locker. a bridge deck locker works on cats, but that is about it, AFAIT.

 

[Tranona]

So I think I'll just stick with my all chain rode. If I feel that it's not going to be sufficient, I'll lay out another anchor.

That is the key point. you configure your anchoring gear to suit the demands you place on it. As I explained earlier in the eastern Med i found you sometimes needed extra over the 50m I had, but it was usually in benign conditions as you would not want to anchor in that sort of location in a blow. So no problem retrieving the extra 10 or 20m of rope by hand. Where I sail now it is rare that 50m is not enough so rope would be added when needed. Chain has an easily accessible shackle on the bitter end and rope has a spliced eye on it so easy to attach if needed.