Anchor chain piling up
- Thread starter richardh10
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alan_d
Well-Known Member
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Use a stick, easy, simple. Traffic cone waste of time and space (might work originally - but it will move slight and then not work). Smaller chain works - because even if it towers it is a smaller tower and lighter, thus easier to knock over. My Armorgalv coated chain works well as like stainless it is slippery. Chain used frequently towers less because it is abraded and smooth - chain that is not used much tends to have rust on it, even a very small superficial amount, making it tower more easily.
Thinwater has a valid point - if you carry 100m how often do you actually use it? Work out what you use frequently and find a way to pile/store the bulk that you do not use in a corner (make a false, temporary, bulkhead) so you can pack it in giving you room for the bit you do use.
If you have a big locker (big for the volume of chain) and can make a false bottom to the locker so that the chain slides away from the fall of the windlass - that might help.
Our chain locker is low and flat and we carry 75m. We have about 15m in each corner of the locker so that portion we use is retrieved into the centre (under the windlass) between the piles. If we need more - its all there. I do need to shuffle it about occasionally but with our small chain diameter, Armorgalv coating and bit of foresight - the issue we had with the old 8mm chain has gone away.
Most options require some effort - a stick, boathook, broom handle, long arm remain the simple answer.
Jonathan
Thinwater has a valid point - if you carry 100m how often do you actually use it? Work out what you use frequently and find a way to pile/store the bulk that you do not use in a corner (make a false, temporary, bulkhead) so you can pack it in giving you room for the bit you do use.
If you have a big locker (big for the volume of chain) and can make a false bottom to the locker so that the chain slides away from the fall of the windlass - that might help.
Our chain locker is low and flat and we carry 75m. We have about 15m in each corner of the locker so that portion we use is retrieved into the centre (under the windlass) between the piles. If we need more - its all there. I do need to shuffle it about occasionally but with our small chain diameter, Armorgalv coating and bit of foresight - the issue we had with the old 8mm chain has gone away.
Most options require some effort - a stick, boathook, broom handle, long arm remain the simple answer.
Jonathan
Richard10002
Well-Known Member
+1 !!!
Richard10002
Well-Known Member
In a race across the Irish Sea in the late 1980's, we anchored not far from Codling light, which would have been between 20m and 40m. There was no wind and 6 hours of tide would have swept us a long way in the wrong direction.
In 2007, we anchored in the bay of Vulcano for 1 night, where we put out about 150m of chain and rope. I think the depth was about 50m where the bottom falls away dramatically.
So, every now and then, any particular boat might need a lot more rode than the norm.
thinwater
Well-Known Member
Some of have tidal ranges of more than 8 metres.
Same question. How often do you anchor in 30 meters at high tide? I'm actually curious, not being sarcastic at all.
thinwater
Well-Known Member
The first example was a race. The second example was 11 years ago. So the answer for you is "practically never." So why not use rope to extend the chain on such rare occasions? Surely we all carry a second rope rode for such needs.
NormanS
Well-Known Member
I have never anchored in 30 metres, but then I don't have 160 metres of chain. I do sometimes anchor in 20 metres, for which my chain is just adequate.
I see you advocate the use of a "rope backing". Now something may be being lost in translation here, but I presume that you mean a "rope" permanently attached to the chain, often referred to as a "mixed rode". I have no experience of a mixed rode of chain/rope, other than the rodes for my second or third anchors, which don't self stow in the chain locker. With a mixed rode on the main anchor, and using a powered windlass, how does the rope part stow itself in the locker?
Neeves
Well-Known Member
To carry much chain on a race is, frankly, daft - but maybe you had removed the keel to save weight. You only need a few metres of chain and the rest of the rode could be dyneema (if all you need to do is stem a tide) - and then once you have minimised weight you are serious about racing. On the Vendee Globe where they anchor in anger, Auckland Island being a good example - they deploy predominately a rope rode. In the Volvo race, where they, the whole fleet, have deployed to stem a tide (Storm Bay, South Africa in the previous race) its again a predominately rope rode.
I'm sure you were safe and sound with 150m of chain in a depth of 50m - but there is no need for 150m of chain - unless its on the bottom and even then the bottom has to be rock or coral to really need chain.
We have 10/11m tides along the NE coast of Oz - so big tides are not an exception - but I don't know of many (any actually) that would carry 150m of chain. Even in the overly popular Whitsundays where the tides are slightly less - there is no need for 150m.
Jonathan
I'm sure you were safe and sound with 150m of chain in a depth of 50m - but there is no need for 150m of chain - unless its on the bottom and even then the bottom has to be rock or coral to really need chain.
We have 10/11m tides along the NE coast of Oz - so big tides are not an exception - but I don't know of many (any actually) that would carry 150m of chain. Even in the overly popular Whitsundays where the tides are slightly less - there is no need for 150m.
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-Known Member
We too have no experience of using a mixed rode with a windlass - but our windlass is designed to take a mixed rode - and the recommendation is anchor plait - as it is more tactile. Our 3 ply - is rather inflexible and would be difficult to store 'automatically' and neatly in our rather shallow locker.
For our spare rode (55m) we use 3 ply which I store by hand, after use, in a coil inside a milk crate and fill the centre of the coil with the 15m of chain. We have enough cordage for a third rode, with maybe 6m of chain (that we carry to put round rocks for shore lines) it would be a mix of retired dyneema halyards and 40m of 14mm double braid.
Jonathan
For our spare rode (55m) we use 3 ply which I store by hand, after use, in a coil inside a milk crate and fill the centre of the coil with the 15m of chain. We have enough cordage for a third rode, with maybe 6m of chain (that we carry to put round rocks for shore lines) it would be a mix of retired dyneema halyards and 40m of 14mm double braid.
Jonathan
GHA
Well-Known Member
Same thing happens running excess chain through an electric chainhoist sitting on the floor. It forms *more* of stable cylindrical (more like a steep cone plus sometimes can create a cylinder for short distances before collapsing ) which needs to be knocked over before it grows up the the chain exhaust from the chainhoist gypsy and jams the motor. But the links interact to form a much more stable structure than would be expected.
Richard10002
Well-Known Member
In both cases we used rope as well as chain. In the second case, the boat had 50m of chain and 100m of rope - it was the only occasion we needed to exceed the 50m of chain. I havent had a seagoing boat since 2010, but if I had one, I would want to be prepared for the eventualities of a trip around the Med, (at least).
However, with 50m of chain, of which we regularly used 25m to 40m, (5m to 8m depths), we always had the problem of it piling up, with the need to nip down to the forepeak and knock it over with a pole.
With hindsight I like the idea of storing it in separate parts of the locker, so the problem only occurs when anchoring over certain depths.
Richard10002
Well-Known Member
If you are replying to me, I did say that we had a rope and chain rode in Vulcano. In the Irish Sea, we actually tied several mooring lines together and attached the anchor chain to this.... so I agree with you, and was merely suggesting that people need to be prepared for various eventualities, however rare they may be.
We weren't serious racers, only taking part because it was there, so a Dyneema anchor rode wasn't on the agenda
Even with 50m of chain in regular use, we had the piling up issue on a regular basis.
neil1967
Well-Known Member
Sailing in the E Med we had 60m of chain and often put it all out and wished we had more. You can be 30m offshore and easily be in 20-30m depth with a sloping bottom. As we fit out our boat for more ambitious cruising I'll be aiming for 100m chain.
Richard10002
Well-Known Member
Why not just get 100m of rope spliced to your existing chain?
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Richard,
I confess not to have read your post with the care that it deserved - apologies.
Mixed rodes appear to have gone out of fashion, possibly because with a modern windlass the exercise necessary to retrieve chain by hand has disappeared (people take out gym subscriptions instead) and the mixed rode has also lost popularity because of the issue to which Norman alludes - rope does not stow well into the locker from a windlass. But this then means that with an all chain rode we have more chain than one would have done in the past, but chain lockers have not been designed with 'towering' in mind. I am of the firm conviction chain lockers are not designed anyway - they are the bit of space left over that cannot be used for much else!
Storing separately that portion, of the chain, that is seldom used can also mean (though you need to have an amenable locker) that you can ensure that it does not sit in the grunge at the bottom of the locker - and quietly corrode. With some planning it can be separated and lifted up slightly - and then when you end for end you have decent new working length.
Jonathan
I confess not to have read your post with the care that it deserved - apologies.
Mixed rodes appear to have gone out of fashion, possibly because with a modern windlass the exercise necessary to retrieve chain by hand has disappeared (people take out gym subscriptions instead) and the mixed rode has also lost popularity because of the issue to which Norman alludes - rope does not stow well into the locker from a windlass. But this then means that with an all chain rode we have more chain than one would have done in the past, but chain lockers have not been designed with 'towering' in mind. I am of the firm conviction chain lockers are not designed anyway - they are the bit of space left over that cannot be used for much else!
Storing separately that portion, of the chain, that is seldom used can also mean (though you need to have an amenable locker) that you can ensure that it does not sit in the grunge at the bottom of the locker - and quietly corrode. With some planning it can be separated and lifted up slightly - and then when you end for end you have decent new working length.
Jonathan
NormanS
Well-Known Member
Well, make up your mind. Is it a cylinder, which has a flat top, or is it a cone, which hasn't? When it's being hauled in, my chain forms an ever growing cone, with the chain sliding down the sides of the cone, encouraged when needed, by my foot or windlass handle.
I agree with others that the first chain into the locker, and the least used, should be pushed away to the sides.
GHA
Well-Known Member
The universe isn't black and white.
And doesn't have to be such a grumpy place either.
thinwater
Well-Known Member
Yes, that is another term for mixed rode in the US. Fishermen also use the term for lighter line after the first hundred feet or so. Most folks think of a mixed rode as rope with just a little rode, but the there is no reason it cannot be enough chain for 98% of your use, followed by rope for the odd deep spot. That is what I have bee doing for years. Carrying an extra 200 feet of chain for something that happens once a year or less seems inefficient to me. Yes, I carry a second anchor and rode as well, but that is quite light as the anchor is a Fortress and the rode has only a token of chain, followed by a covered Dyneema chafe leader.
The transition from rope to chain should self feed through the windlass if the rope is spliced to the chain (no eye or thimble). A backsplice works, or better yet, an irony splice.
The rope lies nice and flat in the bottom of the well, under the chain.
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Neeves
Well-Known Member
A problem with mixed rodes is that the rope does lie in the bottom of the locker. The rope, whether used or not, holds water - the water evaporates, condenses on the locker walls or lid and ensures the chain is kept perpetually damp - alternatively the water (dampness) simply wicks up through the chain. Rope also holds mud and as many lockers open into the forepeak they provide a less than fresh ocean bottom smell to permeate aft. Really any cordage needs to be separated from he chain, until it is actually needed, and preferable stored 'high up' in the locker so that it can drain and not be constantly showered with seawater every time the chain is retrieved.
As chain should be regularly washed with fresh water, to remove both salt and mud - the rope should enjoy the same privilege (it will help maximise chain life). Similarly the chain locker hatch should be left open whenever possible to maximise opportunity for the contents to dry out (and/or be washed by rain).
And make sure the locker drains freely! and is not blocked by the rope.
Jonathan
As chain should be regularly washed with fresh water, to remove both salt and mud - the rope should enjoy the same privilege (it will help maximise chain life). Similarly the chain locker hatch should be left open whenever possible to maximise opportunity for the contents to dry out (and/or be washed by rain).
And make sure the locker drains freely! and is not blocked by the rope.
Jonathan
