PeteCooper
Well-Known Member
Just checked - my winch is a Tractel Jockey and has separate levers for up and down. It is a very common winch in trailer sailers - and is easy to use.
Alternative Lifting Keel Mechanism
- Thread starter JumbleDuck
- Start date
William_H
Well-Known Member
Some of the smaller electric trailer winches are not so very expensive. They then allow you to drive the winch for downward so keeping control of the drop.
My TS has a vertically dropping 100kg keel It is raised about 1.3 metres to get the bottom of the keel inside the flat bottom of the hull. It has a 4 purchase rope lift that then goes to a halyard winch. yes it is a pain to lift the keel. It is also incline to jamb when I paint it with a/f so needs to be dropped fairly smartly. The halayard winch makes slipping the rope easy. Fortunately the water in the case tends to cushion the final impact. still a bit scary.
Newer boats of my type have 250kg cast iron keel and are lifted by a manual trailer winch. A fiend had a swing keel which he drove with an electric trailer winch seemed quite success. Don't be tempted to try more than 4 purchase tackle the friction just gets too much IMHO. good luck olewill
My TS has a vertically dropping 100kg keel It is raised about 1.3 metres to get the bottom of the keel inside the flat bottom of the hull. It has a 4 purchase rope lift that then goes to a halyard winch. yes it is a pain to lift the keel. It is also incline to jamb when I paint it with a/f so needs to be dropped fairly smartly. The halayard winch makes slipping the rope easy. Fortunately the water in the case tends to cushion the final impact. still a bit scary.
Newer boats of my type have 250kg cast iron keel and are lifted by a manual trailer winch. A fiend had a swing keel which he drove with an electric trailer winch seemed quite success. Don't be tempted to try more than 4 purchase tackle the friction just gets too much IMHO. good luck olewill
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
a worm drive winch does not need a brake.
They will give a good ratio & if you only raise & lower it infrequently then use an electric drill to work it. Just ensure that it is well greased
We had such a winch on the club gantry & whilst masts on 33 ft boats are not as heavy as your keel we have to lift a long way.
We can just stick a battery powered electric drill on the square socket on the drive & up she goes- albeit slowly due to the 50:1 gearing
They will give a good ratio & if you only raise & lower it infrequently then use an electric drill to work it. Just ensure that it is well greased
We had such a winch on the club gantry & whilst masts on 33 ft boats are not as heavy as your keel we have to lift a long way.
We can just stick a battery powered electric drill on the square socket on the drive & up she goes- albeit slowly due to the 50:1 gearing
dgadee
Well-Known Member
A friend who has a TS240 (which has a hydraulic hand pumped system for the lifing keel) has just installed a 12v pump. He presses a button and the keel lifts, presses a button ... Quite impressive and useful given that he's getting on in life.
ex-Gladys
Well-Known Member
My previous boat was the first Anderson 26 which had a manual hydraulic system to raise the keel. It was 300 pump strokes from down to up... But the keel was 900 lb and lifted by 4'. Next owner replaced the system with an electric winch, but last I heard had had the keel "welded down".... Ruining a good boat...
Seajet
...
Larry,
are you sure the A26 keel weighed that much ?
I rather think not, or the 22 ( whose ballast weight I think you are confusing it with ) could have an electric winch; it can't, at least not practically.
The 2 boats have different approaches, because raising the keel on a boat over about 25' becomes an engineering problem.
The 22 raises the whole keel complete with ballast bulb on the end,
the 26 has most of the ballast in a permanent stub on the hull, with a relatively light keel acting through a slot in it.
I have heard of the boat with a now fixed keel, what a shame; I share your frustration.
If she was the actual first boat we test sailed her with Malcolm White.
I've sailed on a few 26's, impressive boats; a friend picked up a semi-derelict one as a sort of ' barn find ' and is restoring her to an incredibly high standard, trouble is it's taking up too much of his retirement - at this rate someone else will get a spiffing boat...
Sorry for thread drift, Jumbleduck !
are you sure the A26 keel weighed that much ?
I rather think not, or the 22 ( whose ballast weight I think you are confusing it with ) could have an electric winch; it can't, at least not practically.
The 2 boats have different approaches, because raising the keel on a boat over about 25' becomes an engineering problem.
The 22 raises the whole keel complete with ballast bulb on the end,
the 26 has most of the ballast in a permanent stub on the hull, with a relatively light keel acting through a slot in it.
I have heard of the boat with a now fixed keel, what a shame; I share your frustration.
If she was the actual first boat we test sailed her with Malcolm White.
I've sailed on a few 26's, impressive boats; a friend picked up a semi-derelict one as a sort of ' barn find ' and is restoring her to an incredibly high standard, trouble is it's taking up too much of his retirement - at this rate someone else will get a spiffing boat...
Sorry for thread drift, Jumbleduck !
ex-Gladys
Well-Known Member
Yep, positive, it wasn't just a plate it was a profiled casting or whatever about 4" thick at maximum chord... and the PO had had it dropped out to replace the roller at the front of the slot. The jack that did the lifting was a 4tonne lorry jack working on a pair of double blocks with the whip attached to the keel. The exercise of lifting the keel was hard work!
I had a few conversations over the years with the guy with the "barn find"...
I had a few conversations over the years with the guy with the "barn find"...
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Why ? Seems like a sensible option to me. Will not affect sailing performance. Gets rid of the need for lifting tackle in an ageing boat.
So long as the owner has a cradle or trailer for it ( there are perfectly adequate trailer for boats of this size with a keel) then it seems to me to be a very good idea
If trailing is not a problem and if on a deep water mooring I cannot see the point of lift keels.
As for mud larking - I cannot see the point of that either so perhaps I am biased
Seajet
...
Daydream Believer, what exactly do you think lift keel assemblies do to 30 year old ' ageing ' boats then ?
The Anderson 26 was specifically designed for a lift keel, and was good at it; ther eare loads of fin keelers around, any berk can design them !
It's a common misconception that lift keels are for creek crawling; not unless it's a place you already know well it isn't, as there's not much difference between running into an old tesco trolley, Morris Minor etc, at 4'6" or 2' in my case.
The benefit comes with moorings closer to shore, drying but cheaper, and on trips one can tuck into shallow places either to get a vacant berth or more shelter from a blow.
One example in my case is the Folly Pontoon upriver from Cowes; the deeper Eastward side is often rafted 6 deep, but I can go on the Westward side, afloat all the time but with no chance of rafting, in fact it's prohibited on that side.
Same in Bembridge and a multitude of shallow harbours.
The Anderson 26 was specifically designed for a lift keel, and was good at it; ther eare loads of fin keelers around, any berk can design them !
It's a common misconception that lift keels are for creek crawling; not unless it's a place you already know well it isn't, as there's not much difference between running into an old tesco trolley, Morris Minor etc, at 4'6" or 2' in my case.
The benefit comes with moorings closer to shore, drying but cheaper, and on trips one can tuck into shallow places either to get a vacant berth or more shelter from a blow.
One example in my case is the Folly Pontoon upriver from Cowes; the deeper Eastward side is often rafted 6 deep, but I can go on the Westward side, afloat all the time but with no chance of rafting, in fact it's prohibited on that side.
Same in Bembridge and a multitude of shallow harbours.
Seajet
...
Hi Larry,
I have a lot of the original paperwork on the A26 ( only recently put on the new website in my signature, inc a letter sent to A22 owners re ' The philosophy of the new boat ' which you may find of interest ).
However a quick look only gives overall displacement, not ballast, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that one !
I was with Bob when he went to see that boat, one of the most surreal experiences I've ever had...
Adamastor
Well-Known Member
A 56' Simonis-Voogd cat I was involved with the build of had a bog-standard 30mm hydraulic steering cylinder coupled to a non-feedback helm pump on each centerboard. The foils were like huge 505 boards, but they could be raised and lowered underway by turning a crank on the helm pump. For more gentlemanly sailing (normal practice) they could be electrically operated by an electric autopilot pump. A pair of valves allowed the foils to flop down if one wanted to drop them whilst stationary, and an emergency crossover allowed either pump to work either foil in case of emergency.
12 years on the system was still as good as day zero when she was launched.
12 years on the system was still as good as day zero when she was launched.
maxi77
Well-Known Member
Certainly a properly designed and installed hydraulic system should last for ever. I always thought thereewas an element of feedback in a steering handpump, afterall such a pump is just a motor in reverse. The systen you describe sounds good, as a balance between the volume of the pump and the diameterof the operating wheel can be adjusted to cope with the load. Electric pumps would be ideal but may outsrip the power available in a small boat.
rgarside
Well-Known Member
I have just replaced the Dutton-Lainson electric winch on my Parker 275. The Dutton-Lainson winch is not really suitable for use in the marine environment, and maintaining the bearing that seizes is not practical without complete dis-assembly of the winch. The system I have replaced it with is hydraulic, with a ram driving a 4:1 purchase. The Parker 275 keel is 320kg, and 8mm Dyneema seems to work fine. There is more about the new arrangement at these two links:-
http://www.parkerseal.org.uk/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=1852#post52498
https://www.dropbox.com/...hKggF0-0qXN0dLK90ma?dl=0
The system so far is working just fine.
http://www.parkerseal.org.uk/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=1852#post52498
https://www.dropbox.com/...hKggF0-0qXN0dLK90ma?dl=0
The system so far is working just fine.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
What an absolute pain having to raise & lower the keel every time you want to moor or get under way. I have seen the damage to some boats where they have grounded at anchor & i would not want to risk a boat like an Anderson for that/. A bilge keeler in calm waters yes perhaps. If the anderson grounds it rolls over a bit & the hull is exposed to damage
Personally i would want to moor in a decent depth- as do most of my mooring holders- first question I often get from them is how much water will i be in
the spce taken up by winches etc is a pain & the keel still has to be lowered to paint so if one has not got a trailer or cradle then it has to go in a gantry so apart from actual towing the lift keel is not such an advantage.
I do know of boats ( granted not andersons) where the keel has dropped out the bottom of the boat. Better fix it once & for all.
But to each his own &I am not knocking the anderson i would not let the lift keel detract from what is quite a nice little boat for its size
Seajet
...
Daydream Believer,
yes it's a real pain lowering the keel, all of 10 seconds effort free winding a handle - she's self righting with it up BTW.
My boat grounds twice a day and has done for 37 years, seems OK so far - have of course done it at other places too; we stay more upright than the twin keelers in mud.
If running unplanned into something hard there's a tufnol shock absorber at the rear of the keelcase, and the keel is shaped for this; most fin keelers would be inspecting for up impact at the top of the trailing edge; I know as I've had one and inspected it for this.
If the Anderson dries on sand yes she'll roll up to 20 degrees but the bilges are reinforced.
The keel winches don't take much room, unless you're Jumbleduck; have you seen inside a Hunter 490 ?!!!
For winter storage I and many other A22 owners ( + owners of other lift keelers who have asked nicely ) put the boat on high trestles, allowing keel maintenance and keeping off casual thieves; I supply the plans for these free to owners association members, they take about 3 weeks evening work and about £300 materials, and are flat for transport at ends of season.
The ' quite a nice little boat for it's size ' currently counts Master Mariner ship Captains with decades experience, and Ship Pilots, among us pleb owners, maybe they know something or maybe were just having an off day.
yes it's a real pain lowering the keel, all of 10 seconds effort free winding a handle - she's self righting with it up BTW.
My boat grounds twice a day and has done for 37 years, seems OK so far - have of course done it at other places too; we stay more upright than the twin keelers in mud.
If running unplanned into something hard there's a tufnol shock absorber at the rear of the keelcase, and the keel is shaped for this; most fin keelers would be inspecting for up impact at the top of the trailing edge; I know as I've had one and inspected it for this.
If the Anderson dries on sand yes she'll roll up to 20 degrees but the bilges are reinforced.
The keel winches don't take much room, unless you're Jumbleduck; have you seen inside a Hunter 490 ?!!!
For winter storage I and many other A22 owners ( + owners of other lift keelers who have asked nicely ) put the boat on high trestles, allowing keel maintenance and keeping off casual thieves; I supply the plans for these free to owners association members, they take about 3 weeks evening work and about £300 materials, and are flat for transport at ends of season.
The ' quite a nice little boat for it's size ' currently counts Master Mariner ship Captains with decades experience, and Ship Pilots, among us pleb owners, maybe they know something or maybe were just having an off day.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Note: I am 6'4" tall and, as Alexander McCall-Smith might put it, traditionally built.
Seajet
...
rgarside,
I'm intrigued; what Dutton Lainson winch did you have that was ' unsuitable for the marine environment with a bearing that seizes ? '
Genuine question, as the winch on the A22 is galvanised throughout and has no such bearing; yes I've had to replace mine once but in 37 years hard use I think that pretty good.
They also gave spectacular customer service, when I ordered a new winch they told me which ship it was coming over on and sent me progress updates !
Clearly you must have a very different model.
Seajet
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Jumbleduck,
the chap we met once with a 490 in St Peter Port ( having sailed the 70+ miles solo with unmodified mainhatch and no electrics ) was a big guy too.
He then borrowed my pilot books & charts ( he was outward bound, we were on the home leg ) and went all around the Iles Chausey - where such a boat is very well suited compared to a deep keeler -and North Brittany.
Being an Oliver Lee type owner, he of course returned all my stuff when he got back. :encouragement:
