Albacore dinghy crews: response, please!

[Walther]

While Dancrane has doubtless long since purchased his boat, this thread has a lot of misinformation that may deter other potential Albacore purchasers. Below are my comments as a current Albacore sailor.

“The Albacore ... is also very unforgiving, which forces skillbuilding. Keeping the hull flat is very difficult; the boat seems to want to roll about 5 degrees from vertical before it settles down.” Gross exaggeration.

“The sail area of the Albacore is way too large for a crew of two with no trapeze. Even a crew of three can have a hard time controlling the rig, especially upwind.” Again, this is nonsense, The Albacore was designed to function well in both light and heavy wind conditions. Any competent dinghy sailors will be able to maintain control in up to 20 kts.

“Attempting to gybe an Albacore with the centreboard down will almost definitely turn it over in a most spectacular way.” Raising the centreboard whilst sailing downwind is pretty standard practice in most/all dinghies, I would have thought.

“One look at an Albacore is all that is needed to see that it is a very old design. The boat has seat tanks separate from the gunwales, which is a design that has been mostly forgotten on newer boats.” This is correct.

“The tanks are too small for the volume of the hull, so the cockpit fills up with hundreds of litres of water during a capsize.” More exaggeration.

“On some hulls, such as those made by Ontario Yachts, the centreboard trunk allows water to come back in while it is being bailed.” Ontario Yachts’ version of the Albacore is not exactly the epitome of the class, and hasn’t been manufactured in decades. Most were made to a price point for the Royal Canadian Sea Cadets.

“The Albacore is not a good boat, by any measure. It is fast, in fact, it is rated as faster than a Laser, but keeping the big rig and unstable hull under control is difficult.” No, no, no. He makes it sound like you have to be some sort of Olympic athlete to sail an Albacore reasonably well. That is simply untrue.

“High winds make an already fussy boat very deadly. The fear while sailing it is what makes it so exciting.” Yet more hyperbolic nonsense. The Albacore is not “fussy”, let alone “very deadly”. It’s actually quite well mannered, though it’s not a keelboat and balance is important (like most other dinghies).

I understood that Canadian Albacores are routinely sailed with a trapeze; and I read that this actually lessens rig tension overall. I only mentioned the trapeze because it would seem to be a cure for the exhausting hike which the standard Alb requires in a breeze.

(1) Canadian Albacores are certainly not routinely sailed with trapezes. Probably you are confusing them with the CL-16 (Canadian-made unlicensed Wayfarer clone), which has an untapered mast and is available from its manufacturer fitted with a trapeze.

Ignore that review. Many of the comments on that review, plus the rest of the website it came from, leads me to the conclusion that the guy does not have a clue what he's talking about.

An Albacore is dangerously fast, but the 29er is perfect?? The Laser needs a trapeze if the sail goes any bigger than standard?? (Rooster 8.1 take note!) The Alberbarge is over ragged, however 420s aren't any good because if your crew goes out on the wire in light winds they end up in the water. And gybing a dinghy in a blow with the plate down results in a swim...no **** Sherlock!

The Internet is a wonderful resource for information, but you also get drivel like this.

+1

I don't know what experience the guy has but most of his comments are laughable. The Albacore is a very easy boat to sail in comparison to most other racing dinghies. It is far less work to sail upwind in strong winds than many other boats and is faster than almost all other non-trapeze dinghies in these conditions. It's also fast in light winds too and it's no more unstable downwind than any other dinghy. I can only believe he either has very limited abilities or is comparing an Albacore with an undercanvased cruising dinghy.

^^^ THIS ^^^

 

[Motor_Sailor]

Learnt to sail in a Swordfish (pre-cursur to the Albacore) in Malta during the 60s and then had my own Albacore in Dover as a teenager during the early seventies. I wasn't very big and sailed with one or two teenage friends all along the south coast and over the channel most weekends to France and along to Holland during the summer holidays. Sometimes used to go in company with the kids from Dover college who went over in Fireflies accompanied by a teacher on his own in a sailing navy whaler.

Always thought of them as good sea boats and certainly never turned it over in hundreds of offshore miles. It's an old design, but not sure if that makes it a bad design. Certainly never found it a handful in heavy going.

 

[Kukri]

It’s an accurate description of my Uffa Fox International Fourteen except that she has no deck at all, has smaller bouyancy tanks, a much more complicated rig, a wooden mast, a huge spinnaker and is even twitchier.

The sail areas and spar lengths are interchangeable, but the Alb is a foot longer. The hull is a foot shorter but both are standard Fox shape with a few tweaks.

But (a) I know she was built eighty years ago to be sailed by very rich very fit young men and
(b) that’s why we sail her with a Firefly main and jib...

 

[Cantata]

I haven't read all this thread, but.....
I had 4 Albs during the 1970's. I loved the boat. We had a hot fleet at Herne Bay, second only to Grimsby and we did beat them at one Nationals. Sailed all through the winters on a lake too.
Yes they were hard work in a blow, but very rewarding. Yes you could de-power the rig - lots of sail and rig controls to do it. No they didn't fill right up on a capsize. They were a great sea boat on the choppy waters of the Thames Estuary, and conversely they were very sensitive and fast in light airs.

 

[Greenheart]

While Dancrane has doubtless long since purchased his boat, this thread has a lot of misinformation...

Let's be clear, most of the negative comment about the Albacore came from the original article, which was not a product of this forum.

I always liked the look of Albacores very much and wanted to be told whether one might make a good little cruiser, especially with non-standard systems to aid singlehanding.

Canadian Albacores are certainly not routinely sailed with trapezes. Probably you are confusing them with the CL-16 (Canadian-made unlicensed Wayfarer clone)...

I was only quoting another source which had said that some Albs in Canada had trapezes...I assumed, for more powerful righting. Seemed like a good idea to me - I'm not restricted by racing rules.

All academic anyway, as I started the thread six years ago and bought an Osprey three months later.

 

[LittleSister]

I have been thinking about rebuilding an Albacore as a simple cruising dinghy.

This will invite a chorus of "Buy a Wayfarer or a Wanderer" but my thought process is that the Albacore is a very light boat, and much easier to manage off the water.

I would go for a gunter lug rig, so that the spars come into the boat as you reef, and so that she won't capsize if you try to sleep aboard with a tent.

Is this mad?

Minn, did you ever build your Albacore cruiser? (And no, it is not mad, just pleasingly eccentric!)

 

[Kukri]

Minn, did you ever build your Albacore cruiser? (And no, it is not mad, just pleasingly eccentric!)

No; things flowed down a different path because of the EISCA auction which resulted in a rescue puppy in the shape of an Uffa Fox 14, which fills the Albacore shaped space, and then we got a camp cruising Squib. And the Red Monster...

 

[Greenheart]

A few times each year it occurs to me how crazy I am, singlehandedly hauling the hefty Osprey in and out of the water. The obvious (to me) alternative is the 70kg Tasar, which Bethwaite designed partly to prove that a lightweight boat which a man and woman can handle, could be as exciting as more complex and demanding designs.

But I'm reminded that for performance, the Albacore is a kind of 'old unbeatable'. The Tasar is about the same length as the Albacore; the mainsail and jib of both boats are exactly the same areas, and neither was designed to benefit from a spinnaker or trapeze...

...however, the Tasar is a massive 40kg lighter than the Albacore (hence much easier for me to haul out); it employs a swivelling mast for superior aerodynamics, and a fully-battened mainsail...so I'd expect it to be, as the marketing claimed, "light years ahead"...

...but the ratings show it's barely 2% faster than the ancient Albacore. Of course, the Tasar is also a long way from modern nowadays, but I can't think of any 21st Century designs either, of similar size, sail area and simplicity, that embarrass Uffa's Albacore.

 

[Iain C]

Remember the ratings are a very rough guide only, rely on returns from clubs (something the RYA struggle with), can be heavily skewed by the skill of the sailors, and are VERY heavily skewed by the conditions on the day. For example on a light day a Flying Fifteen can be faster than a Fireball, especially if there's some slop around. On a really windy day, a well sailed Fireball is pretty much unbeatable on handicap. On a light day, you might as well go to the pub instead of sailing a 12' Cherub, even a modern twin wire big rig item. But on a really really windy day, there's almost nothing on the water that will keep up with an old '97 rules single wire small rig Cherub which suddenly becomes insanely, blisteringly, illogically fast downwind, I have personally clocked north of 25 knots in one of these. And even the mighty 49er can be beaten VMG dead downwind by a poxy Laser on a light day...we're sailing the angles with the crew on the foredeck going backwards and forwards and gybing that huge kite and popping mainsail battens, whilst the Laser just points at the mark, reverses the flow over the mainsail and sails dead downwind. I would hazard a guess that in flat water and big wind a Tasar will rinse an Alberbarge, which just happens to be quite fast indeed in big waves that would have many other dinghies slamming or going through the waves rather than over them.

 

[lw395]

The Albacore has more waterline length.
I'm surprised it has the same sail area, I'd suggest checking that its nominal main area isn't mesured as a simple triangle.
They are quite different boats. An Albacore with a typical Tasar crew in it would be slow in a breeze, and a Tasar with a typical Albacore crew in it would be a dog in light weather.
I've never sailed either, but raced a fair amount against both, but rarely at the same time.
Don't read too much into the PY numbers. For the smaller classes they are easily skewed by the varying standards of fleets and the mix of fleets around the country. In 1961, the Albacore rated about 3% faster than an Enterprise, it's now 7% faster, which has improved more?

 

[Greenheart]

Thanks gents. I accept that PY has many flaws, but as a non-racer, I haven't much else to measure boats' relative performance by.

...even the mighty 49er can be beaten VMG dead downwind by a poxy Laser on a light day...we're sailing the angles with the crew on the foredeck going backwards and forwards and gybing that huge kite and popping mainsail battens, whilst the Laser just points at the mark, reverses the flow over the mainsail and sails dead downwind.

That's pretty amazing to reflect upon; but don't those light conditions encourage the 49er sailors to point dead-downwind themselves, perhaps goosewinging the gargantuan kite and using their longer waterline to pass the Laser?

I'm surprised it has the same sail area, I'd suggest checking that its nominal main area isn't measured as a simple triangle.

I looked at various sources online, including measurement rules, which I doubt were calculated from boom length and mast height.
They all seem to concur...
Albacore rules say maximum jib area is 3.31sq m...nearly 36sq ft. Every source I've looked at says the mainsail is 90sq ft.
The Tasar's jib can be either 33sq ft or 38sq ft, according to fabric, but the mainsail again is a shade under 90sq ft.

 

[Iain C]

That's pretty amazing to reflect upon; but don't those light conditions encourage the 49er sailors to point dead-downwind themselves, perhaps goosewinging the gargantuan kite and using their longer waterline to pass the Laser?

No, not really. With a huge prebend and two sets of swept back spreaders, the niner main won't go out very far anyway. I am talking about seriously fluffy conditions here...we're twin wiring in under 10 knots and the game changes hugely. Asymmetric skiffs like that are simply not designed to sail DDW.

 

[Greenheart]

Thanks for that Iain...how little I know...

Makes me really wonder what a strange, ill-conceived, hybrid beast my Osprey will be, with two asymmetrics, an adjustable length bowsprit, two spinnaker halyard-sheave heights, plus full symmetric kite and pole as well. :biggrin-new:

 

[lw395]

No, not really. With a huge prebend and two sets of swept back spreaders, the niner main won't go out very far anyway. I am talking about seriously fluffy conditions here...we're twin wiring in under 10 knots and the game changes hugely. Asymmetric skiffs like that are simply not designed to sail DDW.

Even in lesser asy boats, in very light airs, you accelerate in the puffs and then sail into your kite in the lulls.
It can be frustrating. The boat still goes OK for a boat of its size, but gets nowhere on handicap.

 

[Iain C]

Even in lesser asy boats, in very light airs, you accelerate in the puffs and then sail into your kite in the lulls.
It can be frustrating. The boat still goes OK for a boat of its size, but gets nowhere on handicap.

^This. I far prefer to accelerate into the pub in such conditions...

 

[rwoofer]

A few times each year it occurs to me how crazy I am, singlehandedly hauling the hefty Osprey in and out of the water. The obvious (to me) alternative is the 70kg Tasar, which Bethwaite designed partly to prove that a lightweight boat which a man and woman can handle, could be as exciting as more complex and demanding designs.

But I'm reminded that for performance, the Albacore is a kind of 'old unbeatable'. The Tasar is about the same length as the Albacore; the mainsail and jib of both boats are exactly the same areas, and neither was designed to benefit from a spinnaker or trapeze...

...however, the Tasar is a massive 40kg lighter than the Albacore (hence much easier for me to haul out); it employs a swivelling mast for superior aerodynamics, and a fully-battened mainsail...so I'd expect it to be, as the marketing claimed, "light years ahead"...

...but the ratings show it's barely 2% faster than the ancient Albacore. Of course, the Tasar is also a long way from modern nowadays, but I can't think of any 21st Century designs either, of similar size, sail area and simplicity, that embarrass Uffa's Albacore.

Absolutely spot on. It is surprising how it performs given that something like a Tasar has such a complex mast and so much less weight. The Albacore is actually a light dinghy for it's size and barely any heavier than an RS400. It feels a bit heavier on the water as it has so much rocker in comparison to modern designs. I love mine, but sadly with my growing family it is not getting enough use, which means its up for sale (unused boats just seem to decline quicker than used ones!).