Advice sought…

[benjenbav]

I’ve owned boats for much of my life; sail and latterly power. Quit a few years ago but now thinking about it again.

I’ve looked longingly at some beautiful older craft but the interiors are always rather Spartan and won’t encourage my family to sail.

Would be largely fair weather with no blue water passage making.

So I turned my thinking on its head and started working from the priorities of wanting something new-ish with 3 cabins, an airy and comfortable saloon and the ability to control the rig single-handed from the cockpit. Probably in-mast furling and the ability to shade the cockpit with a Bimini.

I don’t know the difference in build quality between Jeanneau (Sun Odyssey 409 - looks interesting), Bavaria, Beneteau, Hanse and the many others that I haven’t named and that’s where I’d welcome guidance.

I have looked at a few Hallberg Rassy, Najad types and I’m sure they’re beautifully put together but maybe over engineered for my needs and the interiors look too traditional, although - I’m sure - very fit for purpose.

Please don’t worry too much about budgets or locations; those are issues for another day.

And thanks in advance for any suggestions or comments.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Hi M, as you may know I have recently bought two new boats, both Bavarias. IMHO the brand has got the balance right at that end of the market, cheaper than the French alternatives, better designed and better put together. I’m making this comparison based on various friends boats, Croatian charters and UK school boats which inevitably were Dufours, Beneteau and Jeanneau.

Friends have Najads, Hallbergs and Oysters, yes fair enough with gorgeous interiors but 3x the cost or more. Lovely if you have the funds.

So if I was in your shoes I’d look at Bav first. The three-cabin Bav Cruisers around 38-41 ft would fit your bill. In-mast main, modest headsail maybe self tacking, electric winches. New cruiser laminate sails. Upgrade the bogs to electric Tecmas. As good as anything for your needs IMHO.

I hope you get something sorted.

Graham.

 

[Tranona]

There is not a lot to choose between them as the 4 are all attacking the same market. Hanse and Jeanneau tend to sell themselves as a bit more performance orientated and you see less of them with in mast, although many Hanses have selftacking jibs. You don't say what age/budget, and while broadly the quality is fairly constant over say the last 25 years, earlier Hanses up to say 2008 were a bit more rustic. On the other hand Bavarias hey day was up to about that time. From 2008 after the financial crash sales of all new boats dropped dramatically and some builders particularly Bavaria struggled for a few years adapting their ranges and production processes to the new environment. Some of their boats in that era were less than good. However when the market came back post 2012 or so all builders had strong ranges, although lower sales compared with 10 years earlier mean less boats on the market now.

I bought 2 Bavarias new, a 37 in 2001 and a 33 in 2015. The first timne I did not look at others much because the boat was used for charter and was excellent . Strong, reliable but a bit rough round the edges. The 33 was for my retirement and was in a different league. I looked closely at all the obvious competitors and it was the best on just about all criteria. Well designed and engineered, put together nicely in a "machine" way. Everything worked and was virtually trouble free in the 6 years I had it.

One of the positive things about buying a used modern boat is that they come so well equipped that there is rarely any sign of owner "improvements". This particularly true of electrics and electronics. Engines are either Volvo or Yanmar and pretty bomb proof, likewise rigs and hardware which come from much the same small group of makers - Lewmar, Lofrans, Selden, Harken, Rutgerson etc. You find much the same gear on the premium boats. Their premium is partly from design but mostly from the y way they are put together and finished. Does not always lead to a trouble free boat though!

Good luck with your search. Look at as many boats as you can - you will soon see the similarities and differences and form your own view of what is important to you.

 

[KeelsonGraham]

You’re in luck. The Southampton boat show is only weeks away. It’s the ideal opportunity to compare manufacturers side by side.

Looking round some of the new boats from big name manufacturers last year, I was shocked by the poor quality of the interiors. Soles with wide, uneven joins and Ikea-like cabinetry with almost no fiddles. In short, cheap floating caravans.

Of course, what you can’t tell by boat show window shopping is the thickness and stiffness of the hulls and the quality of the fittings such as the thru-hulls. In the past I heard some worrying tales from delivery skippers about how much some of the mass produced models would bend and flex in a swell. Not sure if this is still an issue.

That said, the Elans always caught my eye.

 

[Sandy]

I have a Gib'Sea and it sounds like it might fit your list. Although I am not a fan of in mast furling. A bimini can be added at any time - I'm adding a cockpit enclosure next winter.

 

[benjenbav]

Thanks.

Many years ago a survey I had on a French-built boat went to town on the light construction, very different to the British designs of the day. I bought the boat anyway and kept it for six years of untroubled ownership.

But it’s very helpful that the initial responses from several experienced posters whose views I respect deeply isn’t an unequivocal, “You didn’t ought to buy one of they modern mass produced French/German things”.

My most likely use scenario is going to be UK based, either West Country (England) or perhaps West coast of Scotland. I’ve been everywhere in the Solent and it’s all too crowded. The Med is too hot for my liking, ditto anywhere else the sun shines regularly and logistically it’s easier for me to look after a boat in the UK than elsewhere, which rules out Scandinavia, a region that otherwise appeals to me.

So, I think I will begin by focusing on those makes mentioned above at around 40ft+. Comfort and convenience for family use in the waters mentioned is critical. The search may naturally evolve or, perhaps, fizzle out, but it’s a starting point.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Sounds good. My view on the so called Ikea interiors, and comparisons to caravans, is that these interiors are designed by and large for the demands of the Med and Caribbean charter market, where abuse and neglect might well be expected, but survival of weeks at sea in the roaring 40s is not. Your view of the finishes used may vary, but the spacious and adaptable layout makes living on board with family or friends an easy task. Light, airy, visually appealing, easy to use and clean, well equipped. They do work well as floating caravans….! And for the use cases mentioned, that is entirely fit for purpose.

 

[claymore]

Perhaps book yourself into a Priory for a week or two until this current petit mal passes?

 

[Neeves]

Ben,

If you don't want to be restricted by budget think multihull. If you sail, or intend to sail, with those who prefer a flatter environment (which includes many) the stability of a multi cannot be ignored.

Depends what you look at but if you, personally, have a need for speed, eating up the miles and don't mind waiting for weather windows then the 'floating caravan' still applies - but this one has the performance of a Porsche.

Jonathan

 

[benjenbav]

Perhaps book yourself into a Priory for a week or two until this current petit mal passes?

Shhhh. I only just got out. I think they’re still looking for me…

 

[benjenbav]

Ben,

If you don't want to be restricted by budget think multihull. If you sail, or intend to sail, with those who prefer a flatter environment (which includes many) the stability of a multi cannot be ignored.

Depends what you look at but if you, personally, have a need for speed, eating up the miles and don't mind waiting for weather windows then the 'floating caravan' still applies - but this one has the performance of a Porsche.

Jonathan

It had crossed my mind!

But... We don't have quite so much space in UK as you do, in Australia. Also, I really wouldn't know where to start in terms of what to buy.

 

[benjenbav]

Sounds good. My view on the so called Ikea interiors, and comparisons to caravans, is that these interiors are designed by and large for the demands of the Med and Caribbean charter market, where abuse and neglect might well be expected, but survival of weeks at sea in the roaring 40s is not. Your view of the finishes used may vary, but the spacious and adaptable layout makes living on board with family or friends an easy task. Light, airy, visually appealing, easy to use and clean, well equipped. They do work well as floating caravans….! And for the use cases mentioned, that is entirely fit for purpose.

Tbh, floating caravan is a pretty good summary of what I think I want. Or maybe a pleasant apartment with a view of the sea that can be changed from time to time.

 

[ylop]

Tbh, floating caravan is a pretty good summary of what I think I want. Or maybe a pleasant apartment with a view of the sea that can be changed from time to time.

you’ll get a better view from a modern cat! Expensive and higher “storage” costs but they serve this need well.

 

[Neeves]

I don't know about the UK but we have swing mooring, we cannot justify the costs of a yacht club marina nor a private marina and use a swing mooring. Moorings in Sydney are on the basis of yacht length, so our 38' cat which has roughly the same volume as a 45/50' Bav simply costs the same as a 38' Bav. Even a 50' Bav does not have our deck space nor 2 queen berths and 1 double, shower that would put to shame many we see in apartments and can make an average of 10knots over 100nm (without spilling the coffee) and with only 1 on deck.

But my post was simply to suggest you might broaden your horizons. Tris might be equally applicable - think outside conventional.

Jonathan

 

[Tranona]

Swinging moorings for cats of the floating apartment type are rare in the UK - as are big cats in general. This is because of the high cost of purchase of modern cats and high cost of running them - berthing, haulouts maintenance etc and a boating environment where their qualities are not valued so much. Not surprising they are more popular as charter boats in warm places or cruising liveaboards.
Just as an example, try getting a visitor's berth for 40' cat in any south coast marina!

 

[Neeves]

Swinging moorings for cats of the floating apartment type are rare in the UK - as are big cats in general. This is because of the high cost of purchase of modern cats and high cost of running them - berthing, haulouts maintenance etc and a boating environment where their qualities are not valued so much. Not surprising they are more popular as charter boats in warm places or cruising liveaboards.
Just as an example, try getting a visitor's berth for 40' cat in any south coast marina!

Some marinas in Oz, primarily those built 'recently' specifically cater for multihulls with wide berths Mackay Marina Village – No Place Better!.

Marinas cost....whether you are a mono or multi.

That's why I'm keen on anchors and anchoring.

I have not made the comparison but I carefully measured a Bav 48 and our 38' cat (I was given the drawings) and basically they have the same windage and weight (if you remove the keel of the Bav - no jokes needed). The suggestion might be that a 38' cat has a similar value to a 48' mono - or am I being too simplistic? I know its crude - but its crude to compare a 40' Bav with a 40' Hanse, including their interpretation of a Moody.

In Oz there are a surprising number of 48' monos - suggesting that people still have money but preferentially buy monos over multis, despite similar costs? - though there are an increasing number of cats (often bigger than our 38' (which is now at the bottom end, in terms of size - in Australia).

I surmise there is a reluctance to accept multis - as not 'proper' yachts but yacht purchasing patterns have moved to larger vessels and the cost issue may be partially historic (and lack of lateral thinking)..

One factor in the change in purchasing patterns (at least in Oz) is that wives love them - which answers part of the question raised by the OP.

I'm not denying any cost differences - but the OP said ignore a budget in his early search.

We migrated from racing a X99 hard and successfully and had Josepheline built over 20 years ago. I miss the heel of the X-99 but though it was a demanding yacht to race we never hit 21 knots nor could average 10 knots - and be a floating caravan on which we could live in 21st century comfort. We can sail Josepheline as a crew of 2 (meaning 1 on deck - the other is off watch or baking the bread) - it would be impossible to do the same on an X99 or drive a Bav 48 hard with just 2 - again answering the OPs needs.

Not everyone lives on the south coast, of the UK ......

Jonathan

 

[V1701]

How enthusiastic are the family? Get them involved/enthused as much as you can...

 

[Tranona]

Look on Yachtworld and you will find virtually no Cats for sale in the UK. There have been none built here other than the odd few liveaboard types for the last 15 years or so. The typical smallest Cats built in Europe are 40'+ and even a 20 year old example sells for £200k+ in the Med (mostly ex charter).

The most popular size range for boats in the UK in recent years is 35-42' and £200k will buy you a very good modern AWB towards the top of that size range. As I said earlier, Cats just do not suit our environment. There is not the space to berth them, nor "cheap" moorings. They are at their best in parts of the world where things are less congested, the sun and water are warm and there is demand for lots of accommodation either for liveaboard or holiday in a short length.

The Jeanneau 409 the OP suggested is the epitome of the desirable modern family coastal cruiser. Neat package, sails well, easy to handle, comfortable for 4 -6 people to live on for weekends or longer holidays. Easy (if not cheap) to berth as most marinas are geared up to this size range and there is a plentiful supply (relatively) of boats les than 20 years old at all price levels from £50k upwards.

 

[benjenbav]

Some marinas in Oz, primarily those built 'recently' specifically cater for multihulls with wide berths Mackay Marina Village – No Place Better!.

Marinas cost....whether you are a mono or multi.

That's why I'm keen on anchors and anchoring.

I have not made the comparison but I carefully measured a Bav 48 and our 38' cat (I was given the drawings) and basically they have the same windage and weight (if you remove the keel of the Bav - no jokes needed). The suggestion might be that a 38' cat has a similar value to a 48' mono - or am I being too simplistic? I know its crude - but its crude to compare a 40' Bav with a 40' Hanse, including their interpretation of a Moody.

In Oz there are a surprising number of 48' monos - suggesting that people still have money but preferentially buy monos over multis, despite similar costs? - though there are an increasing number of cats (often bigger than our 38' (which is now at the bottom end, in terms of size - in Australia).

I surmise there is a reluctance to accept multis - as not 'proper' yachts but yacht purchasing patterns have moved to larger vessels and the cost issue may be partially historic (and lack of lateral thinking)..

One factor in the change in purchasing patterns (at least in Oz) is that wives love them - which answers part of the question raised by the OP.

I'm not denying any cost differences - but the OP said ignore a budget in his early search.

We migrated from racing a X99 hard and successfully and had Josepheline built over 20 years ago. I miss the heel of the X-99 but though it was a demanding yacht to race we never hit 21 knots nor could average 10 knots - and be a floating caravan on which we could live in 21st century comfort. We can sail Josepheline as a crew of 2 (meaning 1 on deck - the other is off watch or baking the bread) - it would be impossible to do the same on an X99 or drive a Bav 48 hard with just 2 - again answering the OPs needs.

Not everyone lives on the south coast, of the UK ......

Jonathan

How enthusiastic are the family? Get them involved/enthused as much as you can...

Not at all keen. That’s why I stopped sailing before. But times change and they might be more enthusiastic with a decent level of comfort. Suffice it to say a swinging mooring might be a bridge too far.

 

[Neeves]

Not at all keen. That’s why I stopped sailing before. But times change and they might be more enthusiastic with a decent level of comfort. Suffice it to say a swinging mooring might be a bridge too far.

Conventional thinking.

We have 'guests', people who have never been on a yacht (there are lot of such people - its not so unusual), We don't attempt to take then to our swing mooring. Josephine and pick them up at a nearby pier - if you can moor in a marina berth - what's so different to coming alongside, securing, and taking your guests aboard. The only rule is - take your shoes off, or wear appropriate footwear. A couple of kayaks (we carry 2) entertains the younger guests (or your children) - cannot carry kayaks on a yacht....?

Most popular yachts - not everyone is within that group, some buy outside the norm. I don't see the OP as 'most people' - when I visit UK marinas I don't see an absence of 45-50 yachts - there seem plenty who are not 'most people'..

The OP said - forget budget - later he might declare what his budget is and then we can talk reality - today he wants options.

Jonathan