Advice sought…

[PhillM]

I love my little, old and slightly down at heel boats. But the family has never shown much interest, even in a med flotilla. But now have a partner who sails with me. She is hardy enough to cope with the lack of (almost everything) in my Coribee. But I can see a time coming when we will want a 32-footer with all mod cons. Come that time, it is most likely to be a modern production boat, unlikely to be new but I would not hesitate to pick up a well cared for 10+ year old example. IF the pension stretched to it, new would be lovely too!

 

[doris]

The Jeanneau 409 the OP suggested is the epitome of the desirable modern family coastal cruiser. Neat package, sails well, easy to handle, comfortable for 4 -6 people to live on for weekends or longer holidays. Easy (if not cheap) to berth as most marinas are geared up to this size range and there is a plentiful supply (relatively) of boats les than 20 years old at all price levels from £50k upwards.

Having bought a three bed two bath 409 a few months ago I would echo that sentiment.
Sails very well, very comfortable and ticks all the boxes.
If the OP wants to have a look he can pm me.

 

[benjenbav]

Conventional thinking.

We have 'guests', people who have never been on a yacht (there are lot of such people - its not so unusual), We don't attempt to take then to our swing mooring. Josephine and pick them up at a nearby pier - if you can moor in a marina berth - what's so different to coming alongside, securing, and taking your guests aboard. The only rule is - take your shoes off, or wear appropriate footwear. A couple of kayaks (we carry 2) entertains the younger guests (or your children) - cannot carry kayaks on a yacht....?

Most popular yachts - not everyone is within that group, some buy outside the norm. I don't see the OP as 'most people' - when I visit UK marinas I don't see an absence of 45-50 yachts - there seem plenty who are not 'most people'..

The OP said - forget budget - later he might declare what his budget is and then we can talk reality - today he wants options.

Jonathan

In defence of my conventionality I might perhaps explain my family. We have two mentally disabled adult daughters who live with us. They’re both physically able but can’t be left alone. Leaving my wife to supervise both of them in a marina whilst I fetch the boat from a mooring is not going to add to the attraction for my wife who has never been a keen sailor. And ferrying everyone and their gear out in a dinghy is not going to work well.

Budget is the least of my worries. I just want to make the whole thing a pleasant experience for the disinclined and the disabled… and also for me.

Maybe, even probably, the whole idea will fail to fly. But I would like to get back in a boat and not singlehanded whilst my family stay at home. So, as ever with boats, compromises will need to be found.

 

[ashtead]

Your circumstances might introduce particular needs but in reality when you start looking at what I would term the 11 to 13m segment within a certain profile the choices are actually relatively limited if seeking a monohull.
You don’t say the age but maybe I can assume say post 2010 until say 2018?
First the Hanse and Bav - as a former Bav owner when looking we found newer ones rather stark below but should you be interested in seeing a Bav at sea etc the u tube site of Polaris (a 46 though) sailing the Scottish waters might be worth a view and might appeal -very spacious below
The Hanse like us has the advantage of self tacker as do new other Moody -clearly a deck saloon moody 45 might help being one level for family needs but pricey/high freeboard.
Otherwise a Dufour would be worth a look -some have linear galleys and huge fridges which might appeal. I would be looking at size of headroom in stern cabins-do you bash your head when you sit up in bed for example?
Otherchoices might be a look are a Saare ,moving upwards to a arcona or xc42 plus of course the usual hallbergs (fine if plus force 4) Malo and Najad. If looking for a stable platform,cosy cabin though I might be tempted by a nauticat 43 if older? I discount an island packet or the sP equivalent packet even with self tacker due to keel . I am also not mentioning a nice southerly 42 r/s type as again not many seen but you might be lucky . Likewise a rustler 42 discounted given layout below even if well crafted etc.
My present choice if upgrading on basis an oyster 46 is too large/rare would be a gunfleet 43 over Hallberg etc but a saare is certainly interesting if looking
A lot turns on how many cabins/heads you need and if you want/need in mast reefing plus type of keel I guess.

 

[benjenbav]

Your circumstances might introduce particular needs but in reality when you start looking at what I would term the 11 to 13m segment within a certain profile the choices are actually relatively limited if seeking a monohull.
You don’t say the age but maybe I can assume say post 2010 until say 2018?
First the Hanse and Bav - as a former Bav owner when looking we found newer ones rather stark below but should you be interested in seeing a Bav at sea etc the u tube site of Polaris (a 46 though) sailing the Scottish waters might be worth a view and might appeal -very spacious below
The Hanse like us has the advantage of self tacker as do new other Moody -clearly a deck saloon moody 45 might help being one level for family needs but pricey/high freeboard.
Otherwise a Dufour would be worth a look -some have linear galleys and huge fridges which might appeal. I would be looking at size of headroom in stern cabins-do you bash your head when you sit up in bed for example?
Otherchoices might be a look are a Saare ,moving upwards to a arcona or xc42 plus of course the usual hallbergs (fine if plus force 4) Malo and Najad. If looking for a stable platform,cosy cabin though I might be tempted by a nauticat 43 if older? I discount an island packet or the sP equivalent packet even with self tacker due to keel . I am also not mentioning a nice southerly 42 r/s type as again not many seen but you might be lucky . Likewise a rustler 42 discounted given layout below even if well crafted etc.
My present choice if upgrading on basis an oyster 46 is too large/rare would be a gunfleet 43 over Hallberg etc but a saare is certainly interesting if looking
A lot turns on how many cabins/heads you need and if you want/need in mast reefing plus type of keel I guess.

Thanks. I had in mind a target age of boat quite similar to your surmise. I was poring over an Oyster 46 a few weeks ago before concluding that it was just too big a project for me to make it look modern: essentially replace the interior plus rigging plus, plus.

In the 2010 onwards category there’s a lot of food for thought in your comments.

 

[Tranona]

A Bavaria 37 2014 onwards is also worth considering, although not sure there are too many 3 cabin versions around. Same basic design as my 33 and if we had stayed in the Med for family use I would have bought a 37 rather than the 33 which suited my UK single handed use better. Only one loo though, and you might find a 3 cabin with 2 loos more practical, although the 40' tend to be a bit squashed fitting all that in. Bit long in the tooth now but the early 2000s Bavaria 42 hit a sweet spot for a mix of accommodation and performance. It was the second biggest seller after the 34 at the time. I chartered one in 2000 and it was that which took me down the Bavaria route with my 2001 37 which had a similar layout but obviously shrunk a bit!

Lots of boats to look at but you might click with one!

 

[Concerto]

I do not disagree with the advice given so far, however there is one modern feature I am not keen on - big hull windows. These are becoming the biggest warranty problem for owners of yachts and motorboats. The nice clean look of no mechanical fixings is the problem. Hulls flex and large windows that are just bonded in comes under massive strain and the seal becomes broken. A couple of years ago I was chatting with the Fairline agent for the South of France and my comments are based on his experience with hull windows. Maybe I am just being pedantic but if they are having problems with new boats, what is going to happen in 10 or 20 years time?

 

[benjenbav]

I do not disagree with the advice given so far, however there is one modern feature I am not keen on - big hull windows. These are becoming the biggest warranty problem for owners of yachts and motorboats. The nice clean look of no mechanical fixings is the problem. Hulls flex and large windows that are just bonded in comes under massive strain and the seal becomes broken. A couple of years ago I was chatting with the Fairline agent for the South of France and my comments are based on his experience with hull windows. Maybe I am just being pedantic but if they are having problems with new boats, what is going to happen in 10 or 20 years time?

Thanks. I also have a nagging worry about flush-fit, bonded hull windows in boats although the modern motorboat styling does feature much larger windows than tend to be seen in sailing boats and, perhaps, that magnifies the issue for the likes of Fairline?

 

[xyachtdave]

OP from what I’ve read in this thread it appears you’re a good skipper, thinking of the ability of your crew and their enthusiasm rather than following the well trodden path of taking them out in foul weather while attempting to tick your hero sailor box and ensuring they never want to go out with you again.

I’d say the boat itself is largely irrelevant, you can endlessly discuss the merits of manufacturer’s build quality but realistically if it’s got enough heads, cabins, living space and goes reasonably well anything will do.

Obviously performance oriented boats tend to have large powerful rigs, are more demanding to sail and have a bit less of an interior but you don’t have to sail them flat out with the max sail plan up at all times so easily manageable.

AWB’s in charter spec are equally as good fun, trying to squeeze every drop of speed from them while passing more expensive equipment is one of life’s little pleasures.

Alternatively take them on a couple of charter holidays somewhere nice every year, just make sure they come back smiling.

 

[benjenbav]

OP from what I’ve read in this thread it appears you’re a good skipper, thinking of the ability of your crew and their enthusiasm rather than following the well trodden path of taking them out in foul weather while attempting to tick your hero sailor box and ensuring they never want to go out with you again.

I’d say the boat itself is largely irrelevant, you can endlessly discuss the merits of manufacturer’s build quality but realistically if it’s got enough heads, cabins, living space and goes reasonably well anything will do.

Obviously performance oriented boats tend to have large powerful rigs, are more demanding to sail and have a bit less of an interior but you don’t have to sail them flat out with the max sail plan up at all times so easily manageable.

AWB’s in charter spec are equally as good fun, trying to squeeze every drop of speed from them while passing more expensive equipment is one of life’s little pleasures.

Alternatively take them on a couple of charter holidays somewhere nice every year, just make sure they come back smiling.

That’s sound (not sure about any assessment of me as good at anything; but I’ll happily accept the compliment). I do think a couple of family charters in similar-type boats would be a good idea before splurging a substantial six-figure sum on a possible white-elephant - viewed through the lens of a non-smiling participant.

 

[ylop]

These are becoming the biggest warranty problem for owners of yachts and motorboats.

A couple of years ago I was chatting with the Fairline agent for the South of France and my comments are based on his experience with hull windows.

Those two statements are not quite the same thing. That sounds like they were Fairline’s biggest problem two years ago. They still fit them so perhaps they’ve found a solution. Does it mean that a 40ft yacht has the same issue? Does it mean all manufacturers have the same issue? I’m guessing not as more and more manufacturers have added them. If we start seeing them added as exclusions to warranty terms then you know there’s a real issue!

Maybe I am just being pedantic but if they are having problems with new boats, what is going to happen in 10 or 20 years time?

Your concern might be right, but it might be misplaced. A window that fails in 3 months was either not installed right of was specified wrong in the first place. A window that has survived 9 years of use and flexing might well be a sign that it will last for the life of the hull. It’s all about the distribution of the failures - the manufacturer might carefully manage that so it all lasts just beyond their current warranty, this sort of thing is suggested in a lot of consumer goods stuff. The difference is that a Yacht buyer is interested in the resale value after the warranty - and if boats suddenly start failing on 2nd owners surveyors will start flagging alarm bells and the resale will plummet, so I think even the built to a budget yachts will not be as likely to fail soon as say your washing machine.

Now, that doesn’t mean I think difficult to replace windows are a great idea - look at any 20 yr old yacht and there is crazing on the windows from UV damage and flush windows in the hull seem likely to get scratched from fenders/pontoons/locks etc and will be a bigger PITA to make look nice again than my windows with half a dozen screws and some mastic.

 

[Neeves]

Now that you have clarified your issues I have to agree with xyachtdave. The only addition to his post and may have been implicit, if not explicit, in his and your comments - you will need a marina berth. I also suspect one of the compromises will be your desire, for a performance yacht - as said any modern yacht will suffice as long as it has 3 berths and 2 heads. These latter will also result in decent internal space and fit out. The bigger the yacht - the more space, obviously, and it will offer a more stable platform

We have enormous windows and the adhesive has not been an issue, at all. The acrylic has cracked, after over 20 years in the Sydney sun, on some which we have replaced but the cracks were never a major issue - more cosmetic than anything. Modern adhesives have come a long long way even in the last 10-15 years. We also have covers on all the windows now, closing the door on the bolted horse, but how effective it will be - we need another 20 years. Its a sort of net fabric, allow one to look our but keeps the sun and UV down.

Your purchase is thus a monohull - which will be partially determined by your budget.

I wish you well

Jonathan

My post crossed with ylop - I think window issues are a red herring. Replacement is not difficult - it just takes time. There are a number of threads on replacement, here is one I started Replacing acrylic windows

 

[benjenbav]

Now that you have clarified your issues I have to agree with xyachtdave. The only addition to his post and may have been implicit, if not explicit, in his and your comments - you will need a marina berth. I also suspect one of the compromises will be your desire, for a performance yacht - as said any modern yacht will suffice as long as it has 3 berths and 2 heads. These latter will also result in decent internal space and fit out. The bigger the yacht - the more space, obviously, and it will offer a more stable platform

We have enormous windows and the adhesive has not been an issue, at all. The acrylic has cracked, after over 20 years in the Sydney sun, on some which we have replaced but the cracks were never a major issue - more cosmetic than anything. Modern adhesives have come a long long way even in the last 10-15 years. We also have covers on all the windows now, closing the door on the bolted horse, but how effective it will be - we need another 20 years. Its a sort of net fabric, allow one to look our but keeps the sun and UV down.

Your purchase is thus a monohull - which will be partially determined by your budget.

I wish you well

Jonathan

My post crossed with ylop - I think window issues are a red herring. Replacement is not difficult - it just takes time. There are a number of threads on replacement, here is one I started Replacing acrylic windows

Thanks for the good wishes and thanks again to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I’m glad I started it; so many good ideas that are helpful to my thought process.

 

[westernman]

In defence of my conventionality I might perhaps explain my family. We have two mentally disabled adult daughters who live with us. They’re both physically able but can’t be left alone. Leaving my wife to supervise both of them in a marina whilst I fetch the boat from a mooring is not going to add to the attraction for my wife who has never been a keen sailor. And ferrying everyone and their gear out in a dinghy is not going to work well.

Budget is the least of my worries. I just want to make the whole thing a pleasant experience for the disinclined and the disabled… and also for me.

Maybe, even probably, the whole idea will fail to fly. But I would like to get back in a boat and not singlehanded whilst my family stay at home. So, as ever with boats, compromises will need to be found.

May be a floating appartment style mobo would be a better bet.
They can usually be totally managed including parking in a marina by a single person.

 

[dunedin]

May be a floating appartment style mobo would be a better bet.
They can usually be totally managed including parking in a marina by a single person.

No reason a 40 foot sailing yacht can’t be managed solo, both underway and in marinas. A bow thruster is preferable, but most modern boats will have these.
A remote control for the bow thruster (and anchor windlass), plus mid rope with loop on end (ideally with bit of hose threaded through to keep open) led to genoa winch and should be fine with a bit of practice.

 

[benjenbav]

May be a floating appartment style mobo would be a better bet.
They can usually be totally managed including parking in a marina by a single person.

Possibly. But there’s that magical moment when you turn the engine off and just sail…

 

[westernman]

Possibly. But there’s that magical moment when you turn the engine off and just sail…

Yes, but the view is better from inside a mobo than from inside a sailing boat.

 

[Wansworth]

Check out my thread Motaboating,Dutchman handles 50 foot motor boat…..Lady Lisalot

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Yes, but the view is better from inside a mobo than from inside a sailing boat.

Except from a cat. Which could tick all his boxes. Am I correct in thinking the OP is a fellow South Islander? If so, the mooring issue can be solved by the charming Helen at Cowes Harbour Commission. Last time I looked, there was space on the cat pontoon at The Folly. However, I don’t wish to be a one trick pony, and views from the windows aside, any modern wide beam AWB of 37’ plus would amply fill his needs.

 

[benjenbav]

Except from a cat. Which could tick all his boxes. Am I correct in thinking the OP is a fellow South Islander? If so, the mooring issue can be solved by the charming Helen at Cowes Harbour Commission. Last time I looked, there was space on the cat pontoon at The Folly. However, I don’t wish to be a one trick pony, and views from the windows aside, any modern wide beam AWB of 37’ plus would amply fill his needs.

Alas, I’ve only ever been a visitor to your shores. My last boat was in Berthon for quite a few years. That I often singlehanded, but it was a twin shaft AquaStar; pretty easy to manoeuvre.