Advice on VHF please

[gunman]

OK, first let me say that this is a subject which I know little about. I've spent the past few days researching and have visited a couple or chandlers today for advice, (which got me nowhere, fast!) so I have tried, honest!

My situation is this, my boating to date has been mainly on inland waterways with the odd trip to the sea for a bit of fishing, never really more than a mile offshore. My boat is a 17ft fast fisher with a 60hp outboard and recently we have been visiting a few fishing marks which are 2-3 mils off. A few years ago I bought a cheapish handheld vhf for emergency use which I have never yet to use, however the auto squelch seems to be faulty now and it's just playing white noise when you switch it on and it doesn't ever stop.

It's time for a new\decent vhf now. I've been debating over handheld\fixed and the advantages of both. I asked the first store today and was told that the fixed would be better for me as handheld was "line of sight so fixed had more range". When I asked "isn't all vhf line of sight?" I was told "erm, yes". I started to ask about where and how to fit a fixed antenna but quickly learned I would only get more confused as what he was saying made no sense at all.

So I thought I'd ask you guys who use such things. I've been considering the icom M25 handheld unit. I mainly ( for the time being ) go no more than 3 miles out. My fishing grounds are no more than 10 miles from Belfast and no more than 3 miles from Donaghadee (sorry, should have said, I'm from N. Ireland). In time, there is a possibility of me getting the courage to take a day trip to Scotland, which my GPS has told me is 15 miles from where I've been fishing. For this I think I'd possibly go for a fixed unit, but lets not get ahead of ourselves!

I only carry the vhf for emergency, but I've been thinking about it and I will do a vhf operators course in the spring (can't see any local being run any time soon). I want to do this right, so any advice you can give me for now will be well received. Will a handheld be sufficient for my current use? As my boat doesn't have a high structure to mount my antenna, will a fixed give me much more usage over a handheld? My antenna can't really be more than about 1m higher than where a handheld would sit anyway as I mount my handheld behind my screen.


I know the best option is going to be a fixed with a waterproof handheld in a ditch bag, but budget doesn't quite stretch to that just now, that's why I was thinking of gong for the handheld for now, then at a later date going fixed and stepping the handheld down to a backup\ditch unit.

Thanks

 

[Lon nan Gruagach]

One thing is the antenna itself, you will have a higher gain for a fixed antenna than a hand held, so its not just height that is a factor.
Having said that, looking at your location and considering your proposed expedition to Scotland... Have you had a look at the number of boats out there? Looks like a motorway to me. A hand held will be able to reach someone.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Fit a fixed one. The antenna can be up to 2.4m long, whatever looks sensible for you boat. It's not just the antenna height, a handheld transmits as 5 or 6 watts, a fixed set is 25 watts. Or, 5 miles ish on a good day with the handheld and about 25 with a fixed set.

 

[gunman]

I possibly have over thought (or researched) this one. I've read a lot about the 25w making little difference as it's still line of sight and the height of the antenna being the greatest factor. As for high gain, from what I can tell that's a bad thing on a small boat as when it pitches\rolls the narrower band will limit range.

There's so much conflicting info out there.

Edit - PaulRainbow, you're right, there's a lot of boats out there.

 

[Biggles Wader]

You could buy both.A cheap used fixed set(there was one on here for £40 recently)and a cheap Cobra hand held for £50 new.Belt and braces:encouragement:

 

[jac]

The Icom is a good unit. However, as you rightly say, the real choice is between HH and Permanent.

Line of sight for a HH will be no more than 5 miles but could be increased to maybe 20 miles if the receiving aerial is high. The other key consideration though is transmission power. A HH will usually be limited to 5 Watts. A fixed unit will output 25 Watts.

Finally a fixed installation will invariably have a better aerial which also boosts your range.

If i had to choose, I would go for the fixed installation. It will cost a little more and take time to install. ( I assume you have suitable batteries) but if it came to really needing it, you will be glad to know you had the full installation.

That said, a decent HH should meet your immediate needs so if you want the quick fix, buy the HH. Whichever you do buy, get a DSC set, with GPS. That way you can just push a button to send an automated distress including your position.

 

[KAL]

Go fixed. 25w vs 5w is no contest...and definitely do the vhf course and exam. You'll learn a lot and know what to do if it all goes pear-shaped. There are cheap fixed sets available, but definitely go DSC.

 

[gunman]

The Icom is a good unit. However, as you rightly say, the real choice is between HH and Permanent.

Line of sight for a HH will be no more than 5 miles but could be increased to maybe 20 miles if the receiving aerial is high. The other key consideration though is transmission power. A HH will usually be limited to 5 Watts. A fixed unit will output 25 Watts.

Finally a fixed installation will invariably have a better aerial which also boosts your range.

If i had to choose, I would go for the fixed installation. It will cost a little more and take time to install. ( I assume you have suitable batteries) but if it came to really needing it, you will be glad to know you had the full installation.

That said, a decent HH should meet your immediate needs so if you want the quick fix, buy the HH. Whichever you do buy, get a DSC set, with GPS. That way you can just push a button to send an automated distress including your position.

I would like to go for a half decent fixed set in time. I have been looking and the dsc with built in gps seem to start at £200 and up. I could go for a cheap fixed for now, but them, it won't really be the fixed unit I want in the long run. As to a second hand unit, is there an issue of a a previous owner having an MMSI associated with it?

Presently I have 1 12v battery fitted which operates the engine and all equipment. The engine does have a charging circuit and the capacity of the battery is way more than necessary so I've never had any issue. I know I could fit a split charge system but this may be overkill on this size of a boat with electrical equipment limited to nav lights, navigation and comms equipment.

The longest journey I will be making is 18 miles, so in theory I will never be more than 9 miles from either port. To be honest though, this is something I have in mind and I have a lot of safety kit to sort out before I'd take it on so it's not really in the near future.

 

[lpdsn]

HH VHF reception varies a bit. I sometime can't get Belfast VTS on Ch12 from out in the Lough. It works about 90% of the time at beacon 12.

If it's just for emergencies, I believe the Coastguard have transmitters at Orlock Pt and on Black Mountain so you should get reception from those off Donaghadee. Might be worth giving them a quick ring at Bangor to confirm. You can also ask them about the Scottish side. I always seem to find the weather forecast on 10 the clearest when over there but I'm not sure that transmitter is as far south as Galloway, so not sure how well it'd pick up a HH. Bangor control that too these days

Liverpool Coastguard also have a transmitter on Snaefell - I've picked that up as far north as Arran and as far south as Dublin (assuming that's still the one used for weather forecasts on 86 - I suspect Holyhead use it too). Albeit that's with a masthead aerial.

Generally, both Standard Horizon and Icom are very good brands. When I replaced my fixed set with SH the reception improved dramatically with the same aerial and cable. Had an issue with the Icom HH but they were very good about repairing it free of charge even though it was four years old. It normally stays in the grab bag and it's a Cobra HH I use generally, despite being cheap that isn't too bad at all but I'd rate the Icom better.

 

[ShinyShoe]

I possibly have over thought (or researched) this one. I've read a lot about the 25w making little difference as it's still line of sight and the height of the antenna being the greatest factor. As for high gain, from what I can tell that's a bad thing on a small boat as when it pitches\rolls the narrower band will limit range.

OK so squaring power, probably doubles range, all other things being equal. So if your 5W Handheld reaches 5miles (good luck with that) you can hit 10miles with a 25W on the same antenna.

There's so much conflicting info out there.

Yip.!

High Gain... - so simplest way t think of this is the antenna is a concentrator that takes a signal sent in all possible directions (like a sphere) and says - no point sending signal straight down or up as you are trying to talk to other boats etc that are somewhere on your horizon... How much you squeeze that sphere into a donut shape the more power you can get that way.

Height of mast makes a massive difference. Almost certainly the biggest factor. The earth is a curve so at some point you have to send through earth to get to someone or you shoot the signal off the end of the world. The higher the mast the better your chance of travelling further as you avoid the curve.

If you have your VHF at 5ft above the ground, then in theory your signal only travels 2.7miles to the horizon. If the other guy has his at 5Ft you can skim the horizon and so get 5.5miles - the commonly quoted 5 miles for HH VHF!. Thats without waves etc messing things up.

So lets say you attach a VHF antenna to the cabin roof of the Fast Fisher. Generally I'd say a fast fisher roof is about 5ft from the boat deck. Lets assume you go with a modest 3ft Antenna (hopefully not too gainy to allow for wobbly boats) and put it on a 2ft stainless pole that might double as a light pole. You just doubled your antenna height (purists will argue where on the antenna you measure to). That would mean talking to a HH at 5ft instead of being 5.5 miles you get 6.6 miles.

Now lets assume you are talking to Belfast CG. I don't know what height the mast is. HMCG refuse to tell us what height they transmit from. Lets assume its 100ft above sea level you can in theory get Belfast 15miles away. You **may** hear them that far away but you'll find they struggle to hear you with a 5W transmission on a rubber duck antenna on a wobbly boat with wind behind you. With 25W on a half decent antenna you'd be fine.

As said there are plenty other boats around to hear you and re-transmit. Actually its not the open water that would stress me, its the close to shore where cliffs etc block the range.

The fixed kit will do DSC (and so could a HH but I suspect budget means not!) - DSC gives you the magic red button. It will reach ranges you can't reach by voice if you are stuck!

You talk about a ditch bag - where are you ditching to? If you are in the water or sitting in a raft your antenna height just dropped more.

What electrics and electronics do you have. You need a battery for a fixed unit. You need to consider if the loss of battery is the reason you need a VHF! What if your antenna gets hit by the big wave that shorts the battery and kills the engine?

Finally your fixed antenna will always be the height you install it. Your handheld will be 5ft with you stood transmitting, but if on say your waist belt its now 3 ft, and not great to hear over the engine...

 

[PaulRainbow]

I would like to go for a half decent fixed set in time. I have been looking and the dsc with built in gps seem to start at £200 and up. I could go for a cheap fixed for now, but them, it won't really be the fixed unit I want in the long run.

Do you have a plotter or GPS on the boat ? If so, you can usually transmit the GPS data from that to the VHF. If not, still buy a decent DSC set and add GPS when you can afford it.

Look at Standard Horizon DSC fixed sets.

 

[ShinyShoe]

I would like to go for a half decent fixed set in time. I have been looking and the dsc with built in gps seem to start at £200 and up. I could go for a cheap fixed for now, but them, it won't really be the fixed unit I want in the long run. As to a second hand unit, is there an issue of a a previous owner having an MMSI associated with it?

Yip! MMSI would identify the wrong boat. So lifeboat is looking for a 50ft Yacht with Red Sails and ignores small white fast fisher at anchor...
Reprogramming MMSI is a deal job usually which will cost ££. Unless its a bargain I have my doubts!

 

[ShinyShoe]

I would like to go for a half decent fixed set in time. I have been looking and the dsc with built in gps seem to start at £200 and up.

Look at SH GX 1700 - should find one for < £160.
Or a SH GX 1300 for ~£100. Seperate GPS Unit. I'd pick up something for $15, but it would be 5V and then need charging circuits.
Antenna c.£40 I think.

Presently I have 1 12v battery fitted which operates the engine and all equipment. The engine does have a charging circuit and the capacity of the battery is way more than necessary so I've never had any issue. I know I could fit a split charge system but this may be overkill on this size of a boat with electrical equipment limited to nav lights, navigation and comms equipment.

Yip. And if the sh17 is hitting the wind turbine - switch everything else off and wait 10 minutes. You'll almost certainly get enough juice for the red button to work.

The longest journey I will be making is 18 miles, so in theory I will never be more than 9 miles from either port. .

But that assumes the "port" is where you are radioing. If it is you may be trying to talk HH to HH...

 

[gunman]

You talk about a ditch bag - where are you ditching to? If you are in the water or sitting in a raft your antenna height just dropped more.

What electrics and electronics do you have. You need a battery for a fixed unit. You need to consider if the loss of battery is the reason you need a VHF! What if your antenna gets hit by the big wave that shorts the battery and kills the engine?

Finally your fixed antenna will always be the height you install it. Your handheld will be 5ft with you stood transmitting, but if on say your waist belt its now 3 ft, and not great to hear over the engine...

I know, this is also a consideration I've had. What if there's an electrical fire? How will a fixed unit work then? I think the only real "safe" option is both HH and fixed. I realise that if I'm in the water with a hand held that the range is seriously reduced, but then the range of the fixed will be less if the boat is on fire or sunk! I don't expect to be able to talk to Belfast coastguard from 10 miles out whilst floating in the sea, but maybe being able to talk to a rescue boat 1/2 mile away would be useful. Whether this would work or not I have no idea.

I can't see how a wave hitting the antenna would kill the engine. The power for my instruments is fed directly from the battery via a main fuse of course then through individual fused circuits, not fed from my ignition switch and the live feed from the engine circuit. The outboard has it's own stator and doesn't even need a battery to run. Only shorting the kill switch to earth will stop it surely, barring other engine failure of course?

 

[jac]

I know, this is also a consideration I've had. What if there's an electrical fire? How will a fixed unit work then? I think the only real "safe" option is both HH and fixed. I realise that if I'm in the water with a hand held that the range is seriously reduced, but then the range of the fixed will be less if the boat is on fire or sunk! I don't expect to be able to talk to Belfast coastguard from 10 miles out whilst floating in the sea, but maybe being able to talk to a rescue boat 1/2 mile away would be useful. Whether this would work or not I have no idea.

I can't see how a wave hitting the antenna would kill the engine. The power for my instruments is fed directly from the battery via a main fuse of course then through individual fused circuits, not fed from my ignition switch and the live feed from the engine circuit. The outboard has it's own stator and doesn't even need a battery to run. Only shorting the kill switch to earth will stop it surely, barring other engine failure of course?

You can overthink this though. What if the boat was struck by lightning and fried all the electronics. Should you keep a third VHF in a faraday cage to protect it.

 

[jwilson]

If I was in a single-engined boat 3 miles from land I'd rather have a second small engine than the best radio in the world.......

 

[gunman]

If I was in a single-engined boat 3 miles from land I'd rather have a second small engine than the best radio in the world.......

What would make you think I don't have one? I have an aux engine, 2 separate main fuel tanks and spare fuel for the aux in a separate can. I also carry a pair of paddles, even though I don't see them being of much use in the sea. I don't see how that relates to my question about vhf?

 

[skipmac]

First, I've had a few different brands over the years but by far the best, most reliable has always been Standard Horizon. Have a fixed unit on my 19' open power boat that's 35 years old and still perfect. Another benefit to SH models, they seem to have the best sound and speakers, a definite positive as my ears get older and hearing deteriorates.

Yes VHF is line of sight but power does come into play. You will definitely reach other stations at a greater range with a fixed unit, especially anyone with a high antenna like sailboats, CG, etc. But a handheld does have the benefit of working independently. If something happens and you lose all engine power and batteries a handheld could save your bacon, or at least keep you from floating around for a day or so until someone gets close enough to hear you screaming. :ambivalence:

Another benefit to handhelds, you can get SH units (and others to be honest) that are submersible and will float.

Maybe you can catch a leprechaun and trade the pot of gold for a set of radios, one HH and one fixed.

 

[ShinyShoe]

I know, this is also a consideration I've had. What if there's an electrical fire? How will a fixed unit work then?

Probably as well as the flat battery in the HH that you don't use routinely either!

I think the only real "safe" option is both HH and fixed.

Actually a PLB + Fixed unit probably gives a better mix of functions. With the third bit of kit being a HH VHF.

I can't see how a wave hitting the antenna would kill the engine.

You don't read enough Daily Mail - its always a "Freak Wave" that causes all issues... That 20m wave that ruins your antenna will also get water in your engine air intake and then it will die.

If I was in a single-engined boat 3 miles from land I'd rather have a second small engine than the best radio in the world.......

Does depend on the conditions you operate in (bad weather may make both engines not the answer to your problem) and any other risks you perceive (medical emergencies etc).

 

[gunman]

First, I've had a few different brands over the years but by far the best, most reliable has always been Standard Horizon.
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?464129-Advice-on-VHF-please/page2#ELzdMJDvl85bHI5X.99

That's good to know. I had read a few reviews and icom seemed to be well liked. I'm sure they are good units as well.

OK, so I have decided to go for a fixed unit due to the advice on here. I will probably go for a HH as well, maybe the icom, maybe a SH.