Advice on buying a wooden boat

[becq]

I was planning to buy GRP, but have come across a small wooden day sailor that appears to be in very nice condition, recently painted topside, and antifouled. a small amount of varnishing work is already required.

My questions are as follows
1. How long should the boat remain in the water each year?
2. Is she (shoal draft) better in a drying mud berth, or deep water?
3. What is the realistic average time between painting and varnishing? Is it constant touch ups as you go, or does it require yearly painting and varnishing. I appreciate that this can depend on weather and exposure, but would like to get some real life views before I commit.
4. What are the major weak points in small wooden boats that I should be aware of?

I appreciate that wooden boats are more work than grp, but any advice would be very useful/helpful before I commit to a purchase.

 

[maby]

My advice is to talk a very good friend into buying it - then you can sail it as often as you want and stand on the pontoon with a pint in hand, pointing out all the places where he's "missed a bit" while varnishing it.

 

[Tranona]

Bit of a piece of string question. A lot depends on the method of construction and condition when you start.

1 Remaining in water. Depends on construction and how quickly it dries out when out of the water. Clinker built are usually better left in water as long as possible, carvel, if strongly built are more tolerant. However our winters are usually damp so boats stored outside with a cover and over earth tend to survive well.

2 Either, although a mud berth for winter is arguably better than taking ashore.

3 Modern paints last more than one year, so if the paint on the hull is sound and does not crack with drying out you might get up to 3 year's between recoating. Varnish is more difficult and the best investment is a cover for the whole boat, or at least the cockpit when the boat is not being used. Personally I would remove all the varnish and recoat with a modern breathable coating such as International Woodskin, which will last at least 5 years without major work.

4. Rot, broken ribs, loose fastenings.

Hope this helps.

 

[PhillM]

1. How long should the boat remain in the water each year?

We keep her in as much as possible. Only take her out for annual maintenance. When we were in the re-fit stages, about 5 months was about as long as I would tolerate. Allowing anything more and the yard would be trying to kidnap her for summer work (which they always like).

2. Is she (shoal draft) better in a drying mud berth, or deep water?

I prefer a marina. Walk ashore makes the maintenance easier. I also find that a very sheltered marina like Ocean Village keeps the paint work in better condition, than the ones on the Hamble that get more tide and so make more use of her finders (which run the paint off).

3. What is the realistic average time between painting and varnishing? Is it constant touch ups as you go, or does it require yearly painting and varnishing. I appreciate that this can depend on weather and exposure, but would like to get some real life views before I commit.

I have tended to repaint the topsides every year, but (see above re sheltered marina) can now make them last 2 years.

Underwater, every year. Its a good idea to have a good old poke around every year anyway. Catch problems early and you save a lot of time, work and money.

Decks - touch up every year and re-do every 3.

Varnish, 6 coats every year min. Miss it or rush it and you have to go back to bare wood and start again.

I did a full refit over three winters. Since then its been mainly touch up. The some of the varnish will need to go back to bare this summer and the decks will be redone this

4. What are the major weak points in small wooden boats that I should be aware of?

Depends on the boat.

What are you looking for? How much do you want to pay and how much are you thinking of spending to do her up?

 

[srm]

Way back in the 1950's and 60's nearly all small boats were of timber construction. It was normal practice to remove the masts and store them ashore for the winter. Car parks around the harbours were often used, so boats were lifted out in late sept / oct and had to be back in the water for Easter and the start of the visitor season.

Practical sailing books from the immediate pre and post war periods may be of help as they were written for boats of wood construction. I am thinking of Hiscock's Cruising Under Sail, Uffa Fox annuals, and such ike.

 

[jwilson]

If a small to medium sized wooden boat is in good condition maintenance is a bit more time-consuming than with GRP but quite do-able as long as you expect to work on the boat for a couple of weeks a year: either 7 solid weekends or a solid fortnight.

Let it slip though, or start off with a boat with problems, and all bets are off .......

Keeping up a GRP boat in good order also takes time and effort (or money).

 

[Capt Popeye]

Humm, might suggest that a Well constructed boat built out of Good suitable timber will last many many years, plus endure a lot of use, wear and some neglect along its way.

BUT.

If one is considering buying a Yacht built out of timber, then the often required paint and or varnish finish will probably entail lots of work plus money spent on her.
A working boat which probably requires less 'top class finish' than any Yacht will be quite cheap to maintain by comparison.

Any boat made from Ply would or might give rise to early problems, whereas 1 1/2 or 2 inch spruce or larch will endure a very long time.

Often a timber boats fastenings will give way and require re fastening before the timbers give way.

Taking on a Timber Constructed boat is a challenge, probably the worst scenario is to let the Boat dry out ashore with a hot sun and drying wind blowing through her, she might then result in a complete re caulking task, when there was not such a task in the first place.

Its often said that a timber boat deteriorates faster when not afloat and not working that it does when worked often, as the salt water regularly wets her planking and her decks especially with a sailing boat which often heels.

If to buy, ahh, that's a question that needs real thought and experience and observation to answer

 

[becq]

Thanks for all the replies.

She is carvel construction, pitch pine on oak.

Ideally I want to put her on a mooring, I appreciate the PhillM's comments about a marina being best for paint, but if she came ashore February til April, would that be a good time to do the necessary painting/varnshing? I like the idea of Tranona's Woodskin. but would that mean taking all the varnish off, back to bare wood? The varnish is in quite good shape.

She is out of the water still, the planks still look to be tight, but some of the top sides paint is starting to crack slightly at the edges of the planks. There is a manual bilge pump, so when launching, how long might it take for the planks to seal, and do you need an electric bilge pump, or is it best to stay close by and manually pump the bilges for a couple of days, allowing enough water into the bilges to speed up the sealing?

 

[Capt Popeye]

Thanks for all the replies.

She is carvel construction, pitch pine on oak.

Ideally I want to put her on a mooring, I appreciate the PhillM's comments about a marina being best for paint, but if she came ashore February til April, would that be a good time to do the necessary painting/varnshing? I like the idea of Tranona's Woodskin. but would that mean taking all the varnish off, back to bare wood? The varnish is in quite good shape.

She is out of the water still, the planks still look to be tight, but some of the top sides paint is starting to crack slightly at the edges of the planks. There is a manual bilge pump, so when launching, how long might it take for the planks to seal, and do you need an electric bilge pump, or is it best to stay close by and manually pump the bilges for a couple of days, allowing enough water into the bilges to speed up the sealing?

Crikey, with that construction she sounds to be substantial, so suggest look for major rot areas in decking and where rain water would lay undisturbed. As she is ashore the boat will not benefit from discharging rain water over side due to wave actions, so see if there is a run off for any rain, ie, sloping backwards etc.
Suggest that the paint peeling on stop side planking is a sign that she is drying up, allowing the caulking to perhaps flake as well. Thrusting a long pointy thing into the caulking and planking thereabouts will tell if its soft enough to worry about, or not.

You might be well advised to find a traditional surveyor or boat builder who being used to timber construction will be able to estimate any real problems in her hull and decking for you.

Re the taking up, well suggest that in order for her to take up as quickly as possible she should be encouraged to settle lower in the water than her waterline which should mean that her planks above the mean w/l get wetter quicker than would normally be the case, which is a good thing.

 

[pmagowan]

Don't worry about it. A bit of annual maintenance, 5 yearly substantial maintenance and all will be fine. Covers are great for reducing labour. Nothing in a wooden boat is irreparable so don't worry too much about rot unless the whole thing is a sodden mess. I patch my topsides paint every season where it is damaged, same with varnish and then every 5-6 years do a major paint job and revarnishing. I leave her at a marina all year which makes for easy access but causes more wear from rubbing fenders etc. You can repair almost anything on a wood boat with a small toolkit of hand tools and a few scraps of wood. Varnish looks much nicer than all the alternatives so only lazy people don't do it .

 

[PhillM]

What sort of boat is she?

Caravel should not have caulking as they planks are glued and edge nailed together. At least mine is.

Mine is 7/8th mahogany. Caravel is harder to replace a plank but nowadays with the materials available, fairly easy to fix.

 

[pmagowan]

What sort of boat is she?

Caravel should not have caulking as they planks are glued and edge nailed together. At least mine is.

Mine is 7/8th mahogany. Caravel is harder to replace a plank but nowadays with the materials available, fairly easy to fix.

Carvel is simply planks edge to edge. The method of fixing is irrelevant as far as I am aware. My boat is carvel with wooden splines and through fastened to the ribs. Many are caulked. Repair is easy generally because single planks, or even parts of planks, are easily removed and replaced.

 

[PhillM]

Carvel is simply planks edge to edge. The method of fixing is irrelevant as far as I am aware. My boat is carvel with wooden splines and through fastened to the ribs. Many are caulked. Repair is easy generally because single planks, or even parts of planks, are easily removed and replaced.

As with most thing boat there are multiple answers, all correct

See this link and read down to the modern section. Note my 1961 Cheverton is of the glued and nailed variety.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carvel_(boat_building)

 

[pmagowan]

As with most thing boat there are multiple answers, all correct

See this link and read down to the modern section. Note my 1961 Cheverton is of the glued and nailed variety.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carvel_(boat_building)

I am aware of the method of building strip planked carvel hulls (in fact I am planning one with composite construction) but that does not change the fact that carvel is simply the style of building with edge laid planks. The method of fixing is irrelevant and includes splined, caulked and edge nailed as well as glued and I am sure some other methods.

 

[becq]

I have had an opportunity to go and view the boat again.

Overall the boat looks very clean and tidy. The build is definitely carvel, the planks do not seem to be caulked, or epoxied. I am told that they are fastened with copper.

On closer inspection, I had a chance to inspect the bilges thoroughly. The top of the long iron center board casing / keel is very rusty in the bilges. Most of the exposed bolts are showing rust, and under the paint, there is a good 2-3mm depth of rust along most of its length. Forward of the iron casing the keel is bolted through a large thick plank (unsure of name), and this is showing signs of cracking around the rusty bolts. I can also see some rust weeping through the antifoul underneath the boat at the keel/centreplate joint.

Is this serviceable, or does it sound like the keel needs to come off, be cleaned up and re-attached? I get the impression that a surveyor might say this.

Any thought much appreciated.

 

[pmagowan]

I have had an opportunity to go and view the boat again.

Overall the boat looks very clean and tidy. The build is definitely carvel, the planks do not seem to be caulked, or epoxied. I am told that they are fastened with copper.

On closer inspection, I had a chance to inspect the bilges thoroughly. The top of the long iron center board casing / keel is very rusty in the bilges. Most of the exposed bolts are showing rust, and under the paint, there is a good 2-3mm depth of rust along most of its length. Forward of the iron casing the keel is bolted through a large thick plank (unsure of name), and this is showing signs of cracking around the rusty bolts. I can also see some rust weeping through the antifoul underneath the boat at the keel/centreplate joint.

Is this serviceable, or does it sound like the keel needs to come off, be cleaned up and re-attached? I get the impression that a surveyor might say this.

Any thought much appreciated.

Dont worry too much about rust in the bilges. Wooden boats have damp bilges in general and metal rusts but it tends to be very slow once there is a coating on it. I am not sure I understand your description though, is there a lifting keel or is the rust simply on the line between the wooden keel and the metal keel ballast. If this part looks too dodgy it may need droped and reseated which isn't a massive job on this size of boat. However, if you do this it may require spliting the keel bolts and then replacing them (in mine they go right through and out the bottom). They are often faired into the keel in a small hole and are easy to find as the metal makes a metalic sound whereas the hole makes a dull sound as you tap it with a hammer. You simply scrape out the filler and knock the bolt out from the top.

It is not unusual for some damage to the timbers in the boat which is often caused by expansion pressure. Wood is very strong even when partially crushed and mostly it is fine. It is easy though to repair if you are concerned. I suspect you are talking about the keelson. If it is a problem you can simply scarf a new bit in. Release the bolt and either laminate up a new bit or scarf a bit in and then do up the bolt again.

Copper fastenings are traditional in wooden boats. Planks normally have some caulking if they are not splined but you wont be able to see it as the planks should be tight on the inside radius. Most of the time it is sound and you dont need to worry too much. My boat has a number of broken ribs that I have not got round to repairing but it is nothing spectacular. These boats are always way over-engineered because they are often made using traditional scantlings rather than modern, built to a cost, strong enough but not too strong, principles.

If the boat looks sound and feels sound it likely is sound and will do for a long time to come. With a bit of work you could have it better than new!

 

[becq]

Thanks for the reply. Everything else that I can see looks very maintainable, was just a bit unsure about all the rust in the bilges.

It is a long shoal keel, with a centreplate and iron casing attached to keel. I assume that this iron casing for the centre plate also provides all the ballast for the boat as well. It is the top of this ballast that is showing some weeping. The centre plate cover that is bolted down in the bilges that is showing all the surface rust, along with the bolts.

So do these bolts go all the way through this casing, wooden keel and the iron ballast, with a nut in a recess at the bottom of the keel, and faired in?

I guess it is a case of having the boat propped up with the keel hanging so that you can get access to all the bolts. Is it best to replace a few bolts each season, rather than all at once? I guess these bolts will need to be made to order, is there any preferred material ie stainless steel?

 

[pmagowan]

I have little knowledge of that type of keel. My keel was a simple long keel with iron ballast keel. My bolts went the whole way through and were galvanised steel. I replaced like with like when I dropped some but I only dropped a couple, one at a time, to check that they were in good nick. If you intend to check the seal between the ballast and the keel then you need to drop the whole lot and drive wedges in to seperate the two with my type of keel. I suspect yours is similar but a bit different. Don't be afraid of rust but there is no harm trying to get things back to as good as new when you first get a boat. Then you get to know the real strength of these things.

 

[becq]

Yes there is a slot on the ballast to allow a centre plate to swing down. I realise now that this iron centre plate casing allows the plate to swing up into the boat. There are approx 15 bolts either side of the casing, some larger diameter. I guess the larger diameter are keel bolts that run down through the keel, the smaller ones are possibly just to seal the casing from water ingress, but I am not sure how long these would be, they are spaced approx 3 inches apart, so doubt they go too deep.

I can see now that this casing might be difficult to re-seal (if leaking), as access on both sides is extremely limited without removing the engine and a large part of cabin and bulkhead.

I might have to make another visit, and talk to someone in the boat yard.

 

[Sniper]

Is there a centre plate case extending up and into the cabin as well as a slot in the iron ballast keel? This will have bolts around its lower perimeter which go right through the keelson/keel/ballast keel (probably!). Is the case made of steel, in which case it will be easier to seal than a wooden centre plate case, which are notorious difficult to keep leak free due to the 'working' of the structure.

There may not be a case; some boats have a small centre plate which is contained entirely within the external ballast keel. Whatever arrangement there is, a key component which can give trouble is the pivot bolt. These can be extremely difficult to access and remove but they must be kept in good condition to avoid serious problems.