Additional Genoa car for heavy weather jib

[stranded]

Few years ago when having some work done I asked the good people at Berthon about fitting additional cars on the existing Genoa tracks so we could easily use the hw jib when needed. They came back with a long explanation why my simple idea couldn’t be done but they had a more complicated (and much more expensive) solution…

I said thanks but no thanks, and since then changed family circumstances have clipped our wings and we have prioritised comfy cabin space for guests over carrying extra sails.

So I haven’t thought about it since, can’t remember what the problems were, and so am back to thinking surely a simple solution is possible, even if not absolutely optimal.

The (as new and unused I think) hw jib would be hanked on to the existing and recently renewed inner forestay and stowed in a bag on deck for quick hoist when needed. It would be used as an alternative foresail for upwind work, the genny would be furled. So I would like to add manually adjustable cars at the forward end of the long genny traveller track, with sheet tails tied off out of the way on the granny bars. The existing genny cars never need to go that far forward, and as far as I can see could continue to be used as now with the existing traveller control lines perhaps tweaked to minimise chafe past the new jib cars. When using the hw jib the genny cars would be pulled fully aft and out of the way - the hw jib lines would then need to use the genny winches.

What is there about this plan that is so bad that it can only be resolved by the pros at a cost of many many pounds?

 

[geem]

Few years ago when having some work done I asked the good people at Berthon about fitting additional cars on the existing Genoa tracks so we could easily use the hw jib when needed. They came back with a long explanation why my simple idea couldn’t be done but they had a more complicated (and much more expensive) solution…

I said thanks but no thanks, and since then changed family circumstances have clipped our wings and we have prioritised comfy cabin space for guests over carrying extra sails.

So I haven’t thought about it since, can’t remember what the problems were, and so am back to thinking surely a simple solution is possible, even if not absolutely optimal.

The (as new and unused I think) hw jib would be hanked on to the existing and recently renewed inner forestay and stowed in a bag on deck for quick hoist when needed. It would be used as an alternative foresail for upwind work, the genny would be furled. So I would like to add manually adjustable cars at the forward end of the long genny traveller track, with sheet tails tied off out of the way on the granny bars. The existing genny cars never need to go that far forward, and as far as I can see could continue to be used as now with the existing traveller control lines perhaps tweaked to minimise chafe past the new jib cars. When using the hw jib the genny cars would be pulled fully aft and out of the way - the hw jib lines would then need to use the genny winches.

What is there about this plan that is so bad that it can only be resolved by the pros at a cost of many many pounds?

We have twin forestays, both with furlers. 130% genoa on the main forestay and a working jib on the inner forestay. We have a set of cars on the tracks for each sail. We have twin turning blocks for the jib and genoa so the sheets are permanently rigged back to the cockpit for each sail. One reefing lines goes down the port side, the other down the starboard side. Works perfectly

 

[Supertramp]

You should be able to do it.

I have similar to the system you suggest. One long track on deck, two cars, the forward one used for a Solent stay jib and the aft one for furling genoa. No control lines for cars - push stud to lock/release.

You would need to check that the sheeting angle to the track was OK for your smaller jib, and that the business of changing sheets on the winches is manageable (I have a double return turning block to take two sheets). When not in use the sheet is hanked out the way ready for use.

You could change your genoa car to a manual adjustsbut only if the lines don't work with the forward car.

 

[stranded]

You should be able to do it.

I have similar to the system you suggest. One long track on deck, two cars, the forward one used for a Solent stay jib and the aft one for furling genoa. No control lines for cars - push stud to lock/release.

You would need to check that the sheeting angle to the track was OK for your smaller jib, and that the business of changing sheets on the winches is manageable (I have a double return turning block to take two sheets). When not in use the sheet is hanked out the way ready for use.

You could change your genoa car to a manual adjustsbut only if the lines don't work with the forward car.

Thanks ST - i feared I was going to have to wrestle with sheeting angles - not something I really understand. I need to work on that, but am I right in thinking for the sake of a quick and dirty check of the possibilities this week that the sheeting angle is a theoretical line from tack of the sail to the car (rather than the actual angle of some part of the sail, which in our case with our genny seems to be more limited by the shrouds and the high cut clew which means we can’t bring the car too far back without the whole top of the sail twisting open)? I think we could do better with the hw jib, particularly if we sheet inside the shrouds.

 

[William_H]

Essentially you need to set up the HW jib for beating to windward. All else will be usable off the wind. So yes sheet inside shrouds. I would suggest using simple saddle bolted to deck with backing plate underneath to take a pulley for sheet. Now the question is just where in fore and aft to locate the saddle?
This would best be determined by hoisting the sail with wind a bit aft of close reached. The sheet needs to pull the leach down and foot out in roughly similar loads. Use your foot to adjust in light winds. Then luff the boat to see which part of sail luffs first. Top luffs, sheet further forward to tension leach. Bottom luffs first sheet further aft. Sorry you probably know all this having towable pulley on track for main jib. Anyway perhaps location not quite as critical as above may seem. In the end you can also adjust the apparent sheeting point by adjusting the length of the strop of the HW jib. ie raise it equates to moving sheeting aft. (obviously you don't want it too high)
I would suggest taking sheets of HW jib down the side of the cabin to a reachable (from cockpit) position via guide pulleys or even dead eyes. (not tied to granny bars). Most important is to use the sail enough to be confident when weather goes bad. ol'will

 

[Roberto]

This is what I use. The block sending the sheets coming out of the car to their winches is exactly aligned with the track, so the forward sheet would interfere/chafe with the back car. The ring can be pushed on the side of the car when not in use and the regular genoa sheet passes normally through the three rollers of the car. I usually do not go tacking or trimming sails every five minutes so I find the friction ring ok.
It takes a bit of measurement as it is important for the ring to be as tight as possible to the car, otherwise at every tack it would oscillate wildly and risk breaking everything all around.
Some more pictures here:
Rinvio scotta fiocco addizionale su garrocci

 

[MontyMariner]

surely a simple solution is possible, even if not absolutely optimal.

Deploying a HW sail suggests you are going upwind, so your boom vang isn't in use.
Disconnect it from the boom, attach a snatch block and use that as your HW sheet car.

 

[Supertramp]

Thanks ST - i feared I was going to have to wrestle with sheeting angles - not something I really understand. I need to work on that, but am I right in thinking for the sake of a quick and dirty check of the possibilities this week that the sheeting angle is a theoretical line from tack of the sail to the car (rather than the actual angle of some part of the sail, which in our case with our genny seems to be more limited by the shrouds and the high cut clew which means we can’t bring the car too far back without the whole top of the sail twisting open)? I think we could do better with the hw jib, particularly if we sheet inside the shrouds.

I would do as ol'will says and try it, moored up or while sailing first. Start with the car well forward and see how it looks. I would be looking for roughly equal angles between the leach and foot to the sheet. My cars lead outside all my shrouds which makes it easier but you should be setting it up for close hauled sailing and as already said a custom strop is easy to make and a lot cheaper than new leads.

And you won't trip over it...

 

[Refueler]

Cannot see anything wrong with having twin cars on the track .. makes sense in fact.

I can remember talking to a 'rigger' from a well known brand .... saying I was going to sort out barber haulers etc to get a better set to my genny ... he went on and on about why I should change my genny tracks etc etc, .... that BH was not good idea ....

Yeh well !!

 

[Fr J Hackett]

The only problem I foresee is sheeting angle for windward work in strong winds you will need to have a narrower sheeting angle than is likely to be obtainable at the front end of the Genoa track.

 

[Refueler]

The only problem I foresee is sheeting angle for windward work in strong winds you will need to have a narrower sheeting angle than is likely to be obtainable at the front end of the Genoa track.

If the wind is strong enough to warrant using such a sail - would it not be that sheeting in close hauled is not such a desired option ?

A barber hauler from mast base / kicker with small block on that sheet would sort that anyway .. only PITA then is transferring it from one sheet to another ....

 

[Fr J Hackett]

If you are sailing in those conditions trying to make to windward fanning about with a Barbour hauler ( I did think about it, for a second or two) is the last thing you want to be doing. However if sailing off the wind then it wouldn't be a problem it's just a limitation.

 

[Refueler]

If you are sailing in those conditions trying to make to windward fanning about with a Barbour hauler ( I did think about it, for a second or two) is the last thing you want to be doing. However if sailing off the wind then it wouldn't be a problem it's just a limitation.

Barber haulers are actually easier to use than many imagine .. lead the tail back to cockpit ..... the windward BH - you take in the slack so it doesn't wrap with sheet round mast .. Leeward working BH is set from cockpit ...
If you tack ... then what was the leeward is left - what was windward is then set as needed ..... if set well - BH will not mess with mast or kicker .. and will set ok on next tack.

Just a matter of using and getting used to it.

But as I already said - and your post now literally is in similar ball-park - in heavy weather its unlikely you will be close hauling in so hard !

 

[flaming]

The only problem I foresee is sheeting angle for windward work in strong winds you will need to have a narrower sheeting angle than is likely to be obtainable at the front end of the Genoa track.

Actually the reverse is normally true, and in stronger winds you need a wider sheeting angle, not a narrower one.

We use a lot of inhauler on our J1 and J2, but once we're on the J4 (which would be the equivalent of this HW jib) the inhauler is completely off.
There are 2 reasons for this. Firstly as the windspeed increases the amount the apparent is pulled forward by your boat speed decreases. And then there's simply the fact that in strong winds and resultant waves you simply need to sail a bit freer to make better progress.

 

[William_H]

Close to C/L sheeting angle or outboard further is a good question. Not easily answered. It is the equivalent of close sheeted boom versus boom out. Obviously off the wind you want it out. To get best close hauled sailing angle you want it in. But as said if bashing against waves you might want to sacrifice closeness to wind for power to drive forward. So perhaps not too close but the sail is smaller so closer might be better. I saw some years back 100fters at Hobart. Had a relatively small jib, sheet running through a low friction eye on the end of what might be described as a barber hauler but vertical down to an athwart ship track. Track made sheeting point adjustable close or out and barber hauler line gave adjustment to get sheeting angle in to sail correct. So some people think sheeting angle to c/l is important.
You can get a similar effect by having sheet sheave adjustable fore and aft buit closer to c/l then have barber hauler able to haul sheet outboard for wider angle. Good for running or reaching.
I think however that OP needs a simple solution suitable for hard on the wind rough water. ie closer to c/l than big jib but not too close. ol'will

 

[stranded]

Thank you all - if I've learned one thing from these fascinating exchanges, it’s how much I have to learn.

Genny track is on the coach roof so hopefully narrow enough to get a useful angle with the help of barber haulers. With a solid screen + sprayhood most of the time, probably the biggest challenge is going to be adjusting them from the cockpit - which I am very attached to when the going gets tough. I could though just for testing perhaps repurpose the pole up and jib halyards - would the mast base give a good (enough) lead? I don’t quite understand Monty’s point about using the disconnected vang - I am assuming that means using the mast fitting rather than the vang itself? - I’m going to have a good look at that too. There are also a couple of massive padeyes wide on the side decks which I’ve never figured out what they are for - I guess not this though as they would give an even wider angle?

 

[William_H]

Perhaps no need for barber haulers just use track on cabin top. If track is long enough and you an afford additional jib sheet cars. Or fit saddle to cabin top further forward for HW jib. ol'will

 

[Refueler]

Thank you all - if I've learned one thing from these fascinating exchanges, it’s how much I have to learn.

Genny track is on the coach roof so hopefully narrow enough to get a useful angle with the help of barber haulers. With a solid screen + sprayhood most of the time, probably the biggest challenge is going to be adjusting them from the cockpit - which I am very attached to when the going gets tough. I could though just for testing perhaps repurpose the pole up and jib halyards - would the mast base give a good (enough) lead? I don’t quite understand Monty’s point about using the disconnected vang - I am assuming that means using the mast fitting rather than the vang itself? - I’m going to have a good look at that too. There are also a couple of massive padeyes wide on the side decks which I’ve never figured out what they are for - I guess not this though as they would give an even wider angle?

Coachroof tracks ??

Then go for it - forget about barber haulers .. vang attachments .... fit those cars and enjoy !

 

[Roberto]

There are also a couple of massive padeyes wide on the side decks which I’ve never figured out what they are for - I guess not this though as they would give an even wider angle?

Probably for the spinnaker guy blocks.

 

[flaming]

Thank you all - if I've learned one thing from these fascinating exchanges, it’s how much I have to learn.

Genny track is on the coach roof so hopefully narrow enough to get a useful angle with the help of barber haulers. With a solid screen + sprayhood most of the time, probably the biggest challenge is going to be adjusting them from the cockpit - which I am very attached to when the going gets tough. I could though just for testing perhaps repurpose the pole up and jib halyards - would the mast base give a good (enough) lead? I don’t quite understand Monty’s point about using the disconnected vang - I am assuming that means using the mast fitting rather than the vang itself? - I’m going to have a good look at that too. There are also a couple of massive padeyes wide on the side decks which I’ve never figured out what they are for - I guess not this though as they would give an even wider angle?

With tracks on the cabin tops you 100% will not need barber haulers for a HW jib. If you have any issue with the sheeting angle of that sail it will be the other way round, you'll want to open it, not close it.

I think the question of the padeyes would be best solved with pictures.