Birdseye
Well-Known Member
Unusual, likely, practical, possible - but ugly certainly.
adapting to getting older
- Thread starter Birdseye
- Start date
Unusual, likely, practical, possible - but ugly certainly.
Serin
Well-Known Member
Because I am not suitably equippped
Serin
Well-Known Member
Re: Single-masted Ketch
Thank you for this. I enjoyed it. Sensible fella, this Sponberg! I enjoy all the benefits he mentions and a few more besides. Sail balance is one. The autopilot is pretty much redundant. She is much kinder to her crew than most sloops I have sailed in. And steering balance is another. The mizzen is great for offsetting the bow windage with an unfriendly wind direction when at close quarters and will also hold her into the wind when I am hoisting the main. It's a good short or single handed rig.
And we had lots of thumbs up signs last weekend as we swept along with the mizzen staysail set. That's a pretty powerful sail.
She's not very fast, not very close winded and not very glamorous (although she is a good looking boat) But for all that, I wouldn't swap her for a sloop.
Thank you for this. I enjoyed it. Sensible fella, this Sponberg! I enjoy all the benefits he mentions and a few more besides. Sail balance is one. The autopilot is pretty much redundant. She is much kinder to her crew than most sloops I have sailed in. And steering balance is another. The mizzen is great for offsetting the bow windage with an unfriendly wind direction when at close quarters and will also hold her into the wind when I am hoisting the main. It's a good short or single handed rig.
And we had lots of thumbs up signs last weekend as we swept along with the mizzen staysail set. That's a pretty powerful sail.
She's not very fast, not very close winded and not very glamorous (although she is a good looking boat) But for all that, I wouldn't swap her for a sloop.
Poey50
Well-Known Member
Ex-Comfort fabric conditioner bottle - best is the one with a handle - is the male sailor's friend. Wide necked for those early hours of the morning half-awake fumbling pees and, for the first six months, a lovely smell of fresh linen when the bottle is re-opened.
Well-named!
Well-named!
doug748
Well-Known Member
You are a rum currant that's for sure.
Your overtaking anecdote was a fine example of the genre. And your choice of Eventide and Bavaria display an admirable consistency of thought.
Still not entirely convinced you should be inviting comparison with Starlights though.
dunedin
Well-Known Member
One point regarding this aspect of the effort of de-rigging and re-regging each year, I wondered why you didn't simply stop doing this to save the effort?
Keeping the rig in place (and the boat afloat) arguably saves wear and tear, as well as a huge amount of effort. And per Tranoma's principle on another thread, even if you think winterising extends boat life (which I don't), this would only be aiding a future owner in many years time so why let this get in the way of your enjoyment now.
I would have thought wintering afloat (perhaps in Tarbert or Ardfern if the fresh water in Crinan could cause freezing issues) and getting somebody to do a quick rig check aloft would be pretty simple and effective (either the yard at Ardfern or bribe a lightweight Topper racer from Tarbert SC to go up the mast for you).
brian eiland
New Member
Re: Single-masted Ketch
Speaking of a mizzen staysail, you might also appreciate this observation of mine from long ago:
[url]http://www.runningtideyachts.com/sail/[/URL]
"Conventional booms excessively flatten the foot of the mainsail, and are often oversheeted, contributing significantly to the leeway forces. I once had a copy of a test on a Morgan 41' Out Island ketch , where upon removing the mainsail, the boat lost only 1/2 knot of speed, but cut its leeway in half (from 11 to 6 degrees). A staysail was then rigged between the masts in place of the mainsail, and the boat regained 1 knot of speed while retaining its decreased leeway."
Speaking of a mizzen staysail, you might also appreciate this observation of mine from long ago:
[url]http://www.runningtideyachts.com/sail/[/URL]
"Conventional booms excessively flatten the foot of the mainsail, and are often oversheeted, contributing significantly to the leeway forces. I once had a copy of a test on a Morgan 41' Out Island ketch , where upon removing the mainsail, the boat lost only 1/2 knot of speed, but cut its leeway in half (from 11 to 6 degrees). A staysail was then rigged between the masts in place of the mainsail, and the boat regained 1 knot of speed while retaining its decreased leeway."
Last edited:
brian eiland
New Member
That old retired Navy guy had some substantial handicaps he was having to work around in order to continue his pleasure sailing 'vice'. He wanted something totally self tacking, and he wanted the halyards available to him all near the helm. And remember this was QUITE a number of years ago, when some of today's equipments were not available.
I think it is pretty eloquent for what it accomplished.
Serin
Well-Known Member
Re: Single-masted Ketch
Thanks again - this is all very interesting. I would certainly recognise some of these statements from my own experience. We re-rigged the boat 9 years ago (new masts, sails and standing rigging) and opted for a semi loose footed mainsail (boomed, but with only tack and clew attached) and that has proved a success, eliminating that flattening effect.
The staysail is cut mainly for reaching (fine to fairly broad) but I have moderate success with a smallish cruising chute in its place for running. Still experimenting with that.
Ketches are fun!
Thanks again - this is all very interesting. I would certainly recognise some of these statements from my own experience. We re-rigged the boat 9 years ago (new masts, sails and standing rigging) and opted for a semi loose footed mainsail (boomed, but with only tack and clew attached) and that has proved a success, eliminating that flattening effect.
The staysail is cut mainly for reaching (fine to fairly broad) but I have moderate success with a smallish cruising chute in its place for running. Still experimenting with that.
Ketches are fun!
Tranona
Well-Known Member
I was not inviting any real comparison, other than remarking on an actual fact that on the 10 miles or so we sailed on that afternoon there was no difference in speed.
The only other valid comparison is in the subject of this thread where owners and others who sail them report that they can be hard work and the cockpit layout is not good, which is very different from the Bavaria.
My choice of boats, just the same as my choice of cars (Morgan and C Max diesel) reflects the fact that I think deeply about what I choose to buy and own this disparate things because they were chosen for different purposes. The consistency is in the rational thought that goes with the choice.
Don't expect for one minute others would necessarily make the same choice, but even you might have to admit that if you wanted an easy to sail mid 30s' cruiser for your dotage a modern boat such as a Hanse, Bavaria, Jeanneau etc would meet that requirement better than many other boats. You only have to sit on such boats at the boat show and listen to what the typical real buyers are looking for to understand that.
Birdseye
Well-Known Member
Got to say Tranona, that your choice of a mass production boat is totally at variance with your choice of a Morgan. One is about as standard as you can get, the other is a complete oddball with obsolete suspension and brakes. Whats more they leak.
You are full of contradictions.
You are full of contradictions.
Fr J Hackett
Well-Known Member
Best description of driving a Morgan I heard was "it's like a 3 legged pig on ice"
Quandary
Well-Known Member
Three reasons, probably none of them too logical
Habit, probably the strongest, the boatyard is right in front of our house, something I always lusted for when I used to have to drive for nearly an hour only to arrive in heavy rain. I used to winter in Cairnbaan when BW used to offer free storage and craneage there including cradles, less than 5 miles away but at least 5 degrees colder. I also have yet to find a yard that does things as well as I do, I fell out with Ardfern over that very issue.
The yacht had a saildrive and a folding prop, the prop anodes in particular were only good for about 8-9 months.
The third was, as you suggest, an irrational desire to maintain the boat in pristine condition As for keeping the mast up, when she was being commissioned at Largs I slept on her ashore the night after the mast went up, there was a summer 'gale', the vibration through the hull convinced me that a boat with the mast up sitting in a cradle on a hard surface would eventually shake its keel off.
(A fourth factor was cost, the double lift plus storage here works out at less than £200, hard to resist a bargain like that, and as secretary of the Club I need to be about the yard anyway.)
However you are right, I now know that I should have kept her and paid out for all the things I liked to do myself, winters would have been awfully long though.
Serin
Well-Known Member
I prefer to take the masts out every second year, so that I can inspect everything closely. The bosun's chair is another thing that tends to lose its attractions as the years creep by. I think it's well worthwhile to do this. Last year, for example, I found
a crack in one of the spreader brackets holding the cap shrouds in place. That was replaced, of course. I also like to make sure the bottle screws are in good condition and greased, any corrosion in the light fittings is dealt with etc.
This spring I was congratulated on the condition of the standing rigging by a very experienced professional rigger I had engaged to help me with a specific issue. He told he could always tell the difference between boats whose rigging had been maintained in this way and those whose masts were rarely removed. Given the requirements of insurers these days I think it's probably a good investment.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
No contradiction at all. I try to make purchases as a result of a rational analysis of what I expect to get out of the purchase.
So, the Morgan is a toy for limited use. A substitute if you like for a vintage roadster that I can neither now afford to buy, nor want the upkeep. Low maintenance, totally reliable, and last week when I picked it from the dealer after its annual service was offered more for it than I paid new in 2003.
The Bavaria is the answer to a requirement to own a decent size cruising boat that is easy to sail single handed and requires minimum maintenance for the 5-10 years that I hopefully still have left to sail. so far going exactly as planned. nothing has gone wrong with it and maintenance has been one lift for a wash costing £60.
So, as I said earlier, no contradictions, just horse for courses.
doug748
Well-Known Member
You are not above a little sniping yourself. Post 72 sums it up, you seem to be regressing into phantasy.
You have to accept that other people will look for things in a boat that a Bavaria cannot supply. It's not hard, 99% of contributors on here never mention their own arrangements, or try to engineer arguments, it would be great if you could find a way to join them.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
You clearly do not read all the praise that some on here heap on their boats! - often justifying their decision to buy old fashioned designs - and even claim that they are by definition "superior".
Of course people look for other things in boats, however it is clear that new boat buyers look for different things than those who buy older boats. What is wrong in explaining why one makes a particular decision? That is surely what buying is all about - trying to match your purchase to your requirements?
If you recall, this thread is all about adjusting to old age and still keeping sailing. There are different ways of achieving this and buying a new(er) boat (not just a Bavaria) that is smaller, lighter to handle, easier to manoeuvre and low maintenance is one solution. That is the one I have adopted and I am passing on my experience.
awol
Well-Known Member
As the poster who first mentioned a Contessa 32, though I don't think I eulogised about (sic) it - just mentioned a 3rd party comparison with what I thought was a neat pun, I apologise unreservedly.
Serious question - can anyone actually scale the top-sides of a Bavaria 33 from a dinghy or does the stern ramp have a remote control?
Serious question - can anyone actually scale the top-sides of a Bavaria 33 from a dinghy or does the stern ramp have a remote control?
Scotty_Tradewind
Well-Known Member
We 'pootle' very comfortably thank you and not too slowly!
In a F4-5 we regularly are up in the top 6knots and mid 7's.
In a choppy sea we plod on through it in similar comfort.
With an adapted rig and sail plan to redistribute the forces we can now sail upwind with minimum weather helm.
We can sail down wind in a F6 with reefed twin genoas without a huge amount of rolling and saw 8-9 knots crossing Biscay last June.
We get closer to the wind than many others do sailing close hauled.
We are as comfortable port hopping and marina berthing with a bow thruster as any other boat and the purchase price is far below most awbs.
Mrs S says we could do with a 'tad' more space!!
As already mentioned, the Winchrite helped immensely with a dodgy shoulder recently.
Due to a stable boat with large side and fordecks, having all lines other than sheets at the mast is not such a problem, yet!
I have fitted a mainsheet system with either 3:1 or 6:1 ratio, which enables us to pull the main in, all the way even when hard pressed.
S.
Last edited:
doug748
Well-Known Member
We 'pootle' very comfortably thank you and not too slowly!
In a F4-5 we regularly are up in the top 6knots and mid 7's.
In a choppy sea we plod on through it in similar comfort.
With an adapted rig and sail plan to redistribute the forces we can now sail upwind with minimum weather helm.
We can sail down wind in a F6 with reefed twin genoas without a huge amount of rolling and saw 8-9 knots crossing Biscay last June.
We get closer to the wind than many others do sailing close hauled.
We are as comfortable port hopping and marina berthing with a bow thruster as any other boat and the purchase price is far below most awbs.
Mrs S says we could do with a 'tad' more space!!
As already mentioned, the Winchrite helped immensely with a dodgy shoulder recently.
Due to a stable boat with large side and fordecks, having all lines other than sheets at the mast is not such a problem, yet!
I have fitted a mainsheet system with either 3:1 or 6:1 ratio, which enables us to pull the main in, all the way even when hard pressed.
S.
I don't doubt any of it.
It should be noted that the quotation was not mine but was taken from another post, with the intent of showing I was not very impressed with it.
