About to buy my first boat, but what's a good offer?

[jvardy]

After a year of boat hunting I think I am close to joining the ranks of the boat owner. I have found a boat that ticks all our boxes and is in good nick, now the part I have been looking forward to the least has come: submitting the first offer.

I'd value your feedback/tips on what would be a good offer and final offer. I know this is asking how long is a piece of string as it highly dependent on what the owner is willing to accept, and not so much what the value of the boat is but I'd like to at least get a good grip on what a realistic value to arrive at could be. That way if the owner does not want to drop to that, I at least know what amount I am sinking into the boat that I have to accept is not part of the value of the boat (and get my conscience to agree with).

The boat is a 1984 Sigma 41, geared to offshore sailing. Pretty much all of the big ticket items are in good shape (sails, rig, deck, engine, keel). The average price for sale on the internet is between EUR 50.000-60.000. This same boat was on the market for 50.000 two years ago and since then it has had a new engine and furler and done an atlantic circuit. It is now up for 65.000 (down from 70.000).

Would anyone hazard a guess or share experience on what they think is a good value? I don't know if something like soldboats/BUC/NADA would have this model listed, but I'd value if someone would be able to chip in on that.

My guess would be that 55.000 would a reasonable value. I expect it sold for less than the 50.000 it was listed at before and although the owner is probably hoping to recoup most of his investment, most are listed 10.000 less and probably do not expect to go for that anyway. My experience till now is that recent upgrades do not generally raise the price much.

But this is my inexperienced view of it, so I would be grateful for some experienced insights.

 

[Concerto]

Welcome to the YBW Forum and potentially becoming a boat owner.

Boats of this age are plentiful and it is a buyers market. Offer what you think it is worth to you. You shoud have already visited many similar boats so should be able to judge its condition compared to other boats on the market. The owner cam always reject your offer but without knowing why they are selling, it is almost impossible to advise. My advice would be to approach several surveyors and ask them what they think would be a reasonable value. They have more current market transactions than on this forum. You will need a surveyor to check the boat over for faults that may not be visible to your eye. This may adjust any agreed price to cover the cost of repairs.

Best of luck in becoming a PBO (poor bloody owner).

 

[RupertW]

Agree it's a buyers market and don't be afraid to offer what seems silly money below the asking price and even what it was bought for a couple of years before. Also don't take too much into account what boats are or were offered at - we'd all be a lot more knowledgable if we knew what they had actually sold for.

A lot of people will be as interested in the boat going to a good home as the money they get and that emotion can be used (he says rather cynically) and also it's worth understanding the owners position as negotiating with an owner who has a marina bill coming up and is selling out of boats completely is very different to negotiating with an owner who is looking to buy their next bigger boat.

 

[dom]

Every 2nd hand boat is individual: some are money pits, others offer truly excellent value. The former do seem to outnumber the latter.

So, find a boat you really like in that latter category and it might be best to just deal right there, for that is what another prospective purchaser may very well do!

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Make a list of every item you would like to upgrade. Price them up. Double it to account for fitting and subtract that from the asking price. If you still think it's a reasonable ask then offer it.

The boat is worth to you what you are willing to pay for it.

 

[jonic]

It's absolutely not a buyers market at the moment.

We almost sold out entirely last year of older relativley lower priced British boats, mainly because the pound has fallen against the Euro so were inundated with offers from Europeans. Often at asking or very, very close and often with more than one person after the same boat. How that will continue with Brexit is anyones guess!

Always remember the boat belongs to someone who you may need a good relationship with going forward.

Treat them decently, just as you would expect to be treated. The best deal is a fair deal where everyone is happy.

Good luck

 

[Buck Turgidson]

It's absolutely not a buyers market at the moment.

We almost sold out entirely last year of older relativley lower priced British boats, mainly because the pound has fallen against the Euro so were inundated with offers from Europeans. Often at asking or very, very close and often with more than one person after the same boat. How that will continue with Brexit is anyones guess!

Always remember the boat belongs to someone who you may need a good relationship with going forward.

Treat them decently, just as you would expect to be treated. The best deal is a fair deal where everyone is happy.

Good luck

Great time to be building and selling in the UK ;-)

 

[Spyro]

A lot if people will tell you that you will offend sellers by making silly offers. Personally I don't see it myself. I'm selling my yacht just now and if someone makes a silly offer I'll consider it and weigh up all the facts and then either say no thanks or make a counter offer. I won't get offended.
So decide what you would pay then offer what you think you might get it for, take it from there.
Remember though that is a boat that is 35 years old and it seems a bit pricey to me.

 

[Graham376]

Particularly with a first boat, you need a surveyor. Take his advice and you may well be able to reduce the price by more than his fee, depending on what is found.

 

[Spyro]

Particularly with a first boat, you need a surveyor. Take his advice and you may well be able to reduce the price by more than his fee, depending on what is found.

You'd still need to make an offer first, subject to survey. It's a bit of a waste of money employing a surveyor to then make an offer and it's rejected by the seller. As a seller I probably wouldn't authorise a survey without an offer first.

 

[Old Bumbulum]

To my mind assuming a fair starting point of £50,000 plus new engine and furler is most unlikely to make a boat worth £70K on completion, it just doesn't work like that. Maybe the engine and furler did cost £20K but you can't just add that on to the original value. A boat is expected to have a working engine and furler after all.
But a value of £50K + engine + furler - an atlantic circuit is another thing altogether. No way does that add up to the same notional £20K increment after all that wear and tear. An atlantic circuit probably wears out the entire set of running rigging, a third of a set of sails, numerous fittings, much cosmetic stuff...Plus the boat is 2 years older. Given what we know your £55K asessment sounds sensible to me, possibly a bit in the high side.
It is traditional in bargaining to open with an offer that you know will be rejected so as to open a dialogue on what the vendor is minded to accept. He'll go too high, you return with an incresed but still low offer and so on.
What you do need to establish before the start, as in an auction, is your personal stop value and make sure you stick to it.
Given the figures you've quoted I'd pitch in at £45K s.t.s. and emphasise fiunds available and in hand (make sure they are) and see where he stands. Then get a survey and adjust your stop value on the basis of that. Use faults found in the suevey to either adjust his offer down or accept on condition of his fixing the faults.
Remember, a broker is legally required to pass on each and every offer. No one is "offended" at low offers, they just reject them. Usually. You never know, cash in hand and a keen seller and that £45K might just do it. Stranger things have happened.
Good luck!

 

[savageseadog]

The best tactic is to get to know what you're trying to buy, then offer. A survey costs money but an knowledgeable yachtsman will know what to look for, there's always something. You never know, once it's been looked at and some serious problems show up you may not want to offer anything. Assuming you want to proceed I would try an offer at half the asking price with your list of defects in hand. Employ a surveyor after acceptance.

 

[AndrewB]

To my mind assuming a fair starting point of £50,000 plus new engine and furler is most unlikely to make a boat worth £70K on completion, it just doesn't work like that. Maybe the engine and furler did cost £20K but you can't just add that on to the original value. A boat is expected to have a working engine and furler after all.
But a value of £50K + engine + furler - an atlantic circuit is another thing altogether. No way does that add up to the same notional £20K increment after all that wear and tear. An atlantic circuit probably wears out the entire set of running rigging, a third of a set of sails, numerous fittings, much cosmetic stuff...Plus the boat is 2 years older. Given what we know your £55K asessment sounds sensible to me, possibly a bit in the high side.
It is traditional in bargaining to open with an offer that you know will be rejected so as to open a dialogue on what the vendor is minded to accept. He'll go too high, you return with an incresed but still low offer and so on.
What you do need to establish before the start, as in an auction, is your personal stop value and make sure you stick to it.

Good assessment, Bumbulum - the revised asking price is too high.

But unlike others here, I don't appreciate "silly offers". When I'm selling I resent time spent on tyre-kickers, dislike their rationale of picking fault, and even if they do come back with a more reasonable offer by then I'm prejudiced against them.

So don't pitch in too low. In my experience you can read between the lines of what the broker tells you as to what kind of offer will get reasonable consideration. Ask him outright - not forgetting that while the broker may be appointed by the seller and may seem to push you on price, he has a strong incentive to secure a sale and will put equal pressure on the seller to accept your offer.

 

[capnsensible]

All the best with the boat! :encouragement:

 

[JumbleDuck]

But unlike others here, I don't appreciate "silly offers". When I'm selling I resent time spent on tyre-kickers, dislike their rationale of picking fault, and even if they do come back with a more reasonable offer by then I'm prejudiced against them.

I agree. Much smaller boat, of course, but when I had my Hunter 490 up for sale at quite a modest asking price a few years ago I had several people approach me with a "Tell you what, mate, I'll give you two hundred quid and take it off your hands" approach. I wasn't that desperate to sell, so I replied with a polite "Sod off" and decided to keep the boat anyway. She's up for sale again now. No reasonable offer refused, but I reserve the right to laugh and point at unreasonable ones.

 

[Bathdave]

To my mind assuming a fair starting point of £50,000 plus new engine and furler is most unlikely to make a boat worth £70K on completion, it just doesn't work like that. Maybe the engine and furler did cost £20K but you can't just add that on to the original value. A boat is expected to have a working engine and furler after all.
But a value of £50K + engine + furler - an atlantic circuit is another thing altogether. No way does that add up to the same notional £20K increment after all that wear and tear. An atlantic circuit probably wears out the entire set of running rigging, a third of a set of sails, numerous fittings, much cosmetic stuff...Plus the boat is 2 years older. Given what we know your £55K asessment sounds sensible to me, possibly a bit in the high side.
It is traditional in bargaining to open with an offer that you know will be rejected so as to open a dialogue on what the vendor is minded to accept. He'll go too high, you return with an incresed but still low offer and so on.
What you do need to establish before the start, as in an auction, is your personal stop value and make sure you stick to it.
Given the figures you've quoted I'd pitch in at £45K s.t.s. and emphasise fiunds available and in hand (make sure they are) and see where he stands. Then get a survey and adjust your stop value on the basis of that. Use faults found in the suevey to either adjust his offer down or accept on condition of his fixing the faults.
Remember, a broker is legally required to pass on each and every offer. No one is "offended" at low offers, they just reject them. Usually. You never know, cash in hand and a keen seller and that £45K might just do it. Stranger things have happened.
Good luck!

I would broadly agree with this thought process.

Do not get carried away with the sellers 'investment' in the boat since they bought it ...that investment was necessary to allow the boat to do its Atlantic circuit and you (and he) should think if it as ' used up' over the last 2 years ...the boat is old and has done a lot of work in the last couple of years

Much depends on what comes out of the survey, but I would be thinking of £45 -£50k as your final acquisition price.

Jonic makes a fair point that boats are attracative to € purchasers but better involved in an auction than over pay

Your going to be shelling out money hand over fist once you've bought your first boat!!

 

[Quandary]

Sigma 41s are rare but now quite long in the tooth, they were a 'middle of the market' boat in the Moody bracket when new (made by the same builder, Marine Projects) though very well specced in sails and winches for the time, so everything depends on the condition today, if she has been really well cared for and updated you get a lot of boat for the money but she will require a continuation of effort to keep the value, even so she will be worth less the day after you buy her. If you really want her and no other, you could start about 20 -25% below the asking price, indicating that you are close to your spend limit and leave it to the vendor to persuade you why you should be prepared to give more. No one expects to get the asking price no matter what they tell you so be patient and do not take too much notice of the story about the guy flying over from Holland next week end. I have owned several Sigmas though never a 41, (41s were never raced as hard as 33s and 38s), but still I would be surprised to find one today worth £50k.+
Isn't it handy now that we no longer have to do any mental arthmetic converting Euros. probably be even easier next week?

 

[jonic]

Jvardy

Although forums are a great source of info, unfortunately some (often strong) opinions are based on a very small sample of a person's often limited experience. Perhaps one or two sales or purchases in a lifetime.

I have been involved in 100's, maybe even approaching a 1000 yacht sales and I can assure you some people do get VERY offended by poor offers if a boat is fairly priced within the current market. The expletives that come down the phone would make you wince and we are very often instructed POINT BLANK to not deal with that person again - at any price.

If the boat is fairly priced people DO expect the asking price or close.

For sure every deal is different and some real bargains can be had, depending on circumstances and condition, but just be aware of the other side of the coin to the rather lopsided one being presented on this thread so far.

For balance here are some real numbers from some of our sales in a similar price bracket last year:

All sought after British or Scandinavian boats, 40ft or less, often with renewed engines or rigs and all built 80's and 90's:

Asking £69,950

Sold £69,950


Asking £66,500

Sold £65,750


Asking £49,950

Sold £45,000


Asking £89,950

Sold £85,000


Asking £39,950

Sold £39,950


Asking £57,950

Sold £55,000


These are all post survey final figures and all within the last 12 months.


One thing that has been mentioned on here, that is pretty universal, is that a boat will continue to want money (often lots) spent on it!

Good luck and enjoy it.

The enjoyment and freedom of owning your own yacht is priceless.


EDIT - I think I should add for the sake of clarity I am a specialist broker, so I and those like me will have a good feel (and realtime data) of actual market prices. Perhaps private sales will have wider margins due to lack of knowledge of current prices and demand?

 

[jac]

On the point of being offended by a low offer, i think it's all relative. An opening offer 20%-30% below the asking price is probably disappointing to the owner whereas one of only 20% to 30% OF the asking price is probably offensive.


That said, if the boat has been on the market for months. coming up to mooring bill needing to be paid and an owner knowing he is chancing his luck with a high asking price then who knows.

Specifically on this boat, based on what you have said I would concur. If she's done an Atlantic circuit and has a bunch of gear with 10000 miles on the clock then mid - high 40's might be more on the mark.

 

[doug748]

Jonic's post has the ring of truth.

I think some ideas have been formed by looking at distress sales of small, low value, boats often needing remedial work or rebuilding. There is a glut of this kind of yacht, if you miss one there will be another along soon. E Bay also gives a false impression, auction prices are traditionally 25 or 30% below market rates reflecting the buyers increased risk.
Where you have a good, well equipped, boat, made in small numbers with limited availability prices will hold up accordingly.

The OP will know how much he rates the boat, paying a bit too much and sailing this season has got to be better than a bargain in 2021.