Spyro
Well-Known Member
Also consider that in 5 years time it will be 40 year old boat. Quite a milestone, what will it be worth then?
About to buy my first boat, but what's a good offer?
- Thread starter jvardy
- Start date
jvardy
New Member
I am somewhat amazed; so many responses in less than a day and a half! I really appreciate everyone's input, it's been a great help shaping my thoughts.
@jonic
I think this is my biggest challenge: is the boat fairly priced?
I have previously looked at two other boats in great detail: a Grand Soleil 42 (Frers) and a Scanmar 40. Both have had a serious amount of work done to them since their purchase around 3 years before, with paperwork showing around £25.000 worth of bills.
In both cases, I found out what they were listed for before the current owners bought them. The difference between the listings was:
- Scanmar: was £70.000 3 years ago, now listed for £75.000
- Grand Soleil: was £80.000 three years ago, now listed for £70.000 (down from £80.000)
So in one case, with £25.000 spent on it, the listing is £5.000 more than three years ago.
In the other case, £25.000 spent on it and the listing is down £10.000 from three years ago. And they dropped that £10.000 in less than three months after listing it.
This is what makes it hard for me (us?): is a boat actually listed fairly? In the case of the GS, I think not. The current broker from the Grand Soleil by the way has since then asked me a few times whether I am still interested.
So if I translate the above experience to the Sigma, it seems to me to be listed on the high side. That's why I am looking for people who can say: on average this is what it should probably be worth in x condition. Then at least when negotiating, I know what I am paying for the boat and what I am paying for my heart. I understand that I might end up paying more than market value if I really want to own it for this season, but I'd prefer to be aware of just how much.
By the way, I really liked that Scanmar 40 you sold 2 years ago. That was pretty much the package, with all its offshore gear.
@Bumbulum, Quandary, Jac, and others: thanks for your input. I think my approach will be to acknowledge their improvements but provide a basis for my (likely lower than expected) bid highlighting the average price of current listed Sigma 41's and the Atlantic circuit it has done. Also adding that I can purchase with cash on hand and transfer it at any date. I'll put effort into it so that they understand it's a serious offer, not meant to offend. I've figured where my stop value lies.
@jonic
I think this is my biggest challenge: is the boat fairly priced?
I have previously looked at two other boats in great detail: a Grand Soleil 42 (Frers) and a Scanmar 40. Both have had a serious amount of work done to them since their purchase around 3 years before, with paperwork showing around £25.000 worth of bills.
In both cases, I found out what they were listed for before the current owners bought them. The difference between the listings was:
- Scanmar: was £70.000 3 years ago, now listed for £75.000
- Grand Soleil: was £80.000 three years ago, now listed for £70.000 (down from £80.000)
So in one case, with £25.000 spent on it, the listing is £5.000 more than three years ago.
In the other case, £25.000 spent on it and the listing is down £10.000 from three years ago. And they dropped that £10.000 in less than three months after listing it.
This is what makes it hard for me (us?): is a boat actually listed fairly? In the case of the GS, I think not. The current broker from the Grand Soleil by the way has since then asked me a few times whether I am still interested.
So if I translate the above experience to the Sigma, it seems to me to be listed on the high side. That's why I am looking for people who can say: on average this is what it should probably be worth in x condition. Then at least when negotiating, I know what I am paying for the boat and what I am paying for my heart. I understand that I might end up paying more than market value if I really want to own it for this season, but I'd prefer to be aware of just how much.
By the way, I really liked that Scanmar 40 you sold 2 years ago. That was pretty much the package, with all its offshore gear.
@Bumbulum, Quandary, Jac, and others: thanks for your input. I think my approach will be to acknowledge their improvements but provide a basis for my (likely lower than expected) bid highlighting the average price of current listed Sigma 41's and the Atlantic circuit it has done. Also adding that I can purchase with cash on hand and transfer it at any date. I'll put effort into it so that they understand it's a serious offer, not meant to offend. I've figured where my stop value lies.
jvardy
New Member
Yes Spyro, this struck me today as well: is there a cliff at which point boats start to devalue faster? I've been looking at early to mid 90's boats (Grand Soleil 42, Scanmar 40, Malo 116, Sweden 41). I'd have to save up a little longer and each of them has at least one big ticket item waiting to be replaced in its near future (worn out teak deck, old Volvo 2003T, 20 year old sails, ancient instruments).
That is what makes this Sigma attractive: less expensive and no obvious big investments anytime soon (pending survey of course). But yes, 40 years? Does it start to matter more? Again, I know this is not a house I am buying, the experience and pleasure is the return on investment, but I still want to make a sensible choice.
Skylark
Well-Known Member
Personally, I’d stop dithering and offer the asking price, subject to survey. That process should flush out any major issues, worthy of negotiation.
You’ve said that it’s in good nick, ticks all of the boxes and has had the big ticket items replaced. So what’s your problem? You’ve also correctly stated that it’s not a house and that pleasure and experience is the payback. A few thousand pounds here or there is prettt insignificant over a lifetime of boat ownership.
The other boats you’ve mentioned need money (and time) spending on them.
My limited experience of buying a second hand boat is that “dogs” either don’t sell or sell for less than their asking price. Good boats, those worth buying and requiring little to no fettling, sell fairly quickly and at/near the asking price.
You’ll kick yourself if your cheap offer is rejected and the boat gets sold to someone else. You may also gain the tag of time waster via the network.
I just don’t get this Del Boy process of buying and selling a boat. It’s refreshing to read how some posters on here are improving the professionalism of Brokerage.
You’ve said that it’s in good nick, ticks all of the boxes and has had the big ticket items replaced. So what’s your problem? You’ve also correctly stated that it’s not a house and that pleasure and experience is the payback. A few thousand pounds here or there is prettt insignificant over a lifetime of boat ownership.
The other boats you’ve mentioned need money (and time) spending on them.
My limited experience of buying a second hand boat is that “dogs” either don’t sell or sell for less than their asking price. Good boats, those worth buying and requiring little to no fettling, sell fairly quickly and at/near the asking price.
You’ll kick yourself if your cheap offer is rejected and the boat gets sold to someone else. You may also gain the tag of time waster via the network.
I just don’t get this Del Boy process of buying and selling a boat. It’s refreshing to read how some posters on here are improving the professionalism of Brokerage.
A lot of good advice on here already but have to agree with Old Bumbulum in particular. Having a new engine and furler is, in my opinion, a misnomer and owners trying to recoup money spent in a re-fit are being unrealistic. If the boat still had its original 34 year old engine and furler most people would factor in the replacement costs into any offer as with even normal wear and tear they are going to need replacement or at the very least a comprehensive service.
To my mind having a new engine and furler etc just brings the boat back to the original asking (50,000 ish) price and certainly doesn't increase it.
To my mind having a new engine and furler etc just brings the boat back to the original asking (50,000 ish) price and certainly doesn't increase it.
[70521]
Well-Known Member
By the sound of it you have been researching the market for a year therefore will be expert in the market.
You will know how much the boat is worth you based on that research. Make an offer, if it is not accepted walk away. There are lots of boats out there all wanting a buyer.
jvardy
New Member
My problem is summarized in the two other examples I have given. They both needed money spending on them three years before, and £25.000 was spent on them, yet they are selling at or below their previous listing price.
1. Do you think they paid the original listing prices?
2. If spending £25.000 does not influence their listing price, why do you feel a new engine in the case of the Sigma warrants a £15.000 increase?
It's £15.000, I don't know about you but that's not a pittance to me.
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jvardy
New Member
Thanks Sandy, I've probably gone through a thousand+ listings but never bought a boat. At least for a house or a car I can find what they sold for in some register or database. In the case of boats, not so easy. But yes, I think I have enough information to make an offer now.
Skylark
Well-Known Member
I think that you are over thinking it. I don't think that there's a good deal of logic in pricing boats of this era, pre or post big ticket item replacements.
If it's in good nick, has the equipment you want and, just as importantly, gets the thumb-up from family, make an offer. Be prepared to win, be prepared to lose it. If you've looked through a thousand+ listing and identified that this is the one for you, it would be a shame to lose it to someone else.
bbg
Well-Known Member
If it was listed at £50,000 two years ago, I'd be inclined to use that as the starting point. Or even lower if you think it probably sold for less than £50,000. Some work has been done on it, but it has also had the Atlantic circuit that will have made some of the equipment tired.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
If it needed new engine & all the other bits at £ 50K then it was not worth £ 50K to start with. It is an old boat.
If you like the boat offer £46.5k (an odd figure will suggest a willingness to haggle without actually saying so) & see what the result is. If total rejection then forget it.
He has had his £15k's worth of extra enjoyment doing the Atlantic circuit so probably has had enough sailing now anyway.
If the buyer is desperate he may come back with a reduced price & you can start haggling around £50K again.
Do not listen to brokers, They are only one step up from car dealers & estate agents; they want the commission. There are always boats about for those that look.
If you like the boat offer £46.5k (an odd figure will suggest a willingness to haggle without actually saying so) & see what the result is. If total rejection then forget it.
He has had his £15k's worth of extra enjoyment doing the Atlantic circuit so probably has had enough sailing now anyway.
If the buyer is desperate he may come back with a reduced price & you can start haggling around £50K again.
Do not listen to brokers, They are only one step up from car dealers & estate agents; they want the commission. There are always boats about for those that look.
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Nauti Fox
Well-Known Member
Bit unfair really, like any other business there are good, average and bad. I'm pleased to say we had a very good broker (Clarke and Carter, Kent branch) for our last purchase and would definately use them when its time to sell it.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Probably was -- C & Carter sold my boat, but valued it at 60% of the price that the surveyor valued it at---- who said that it was one of the best examples he had seen for some time, no faults at survey!!!
But i agreed the price they put on it & that was that. It was shifted cheap & quick, no haggle, went really quick, no hassle
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doug748
Well-Known Member
No, it's not.
You obviously rate the boat and might be happy to buy it up to 55k. So the only question is what to bid? I would either:
a) Bid 50 sts, to leave some room
or
b) Make a firm bid of 55, subject to survey, and gently make it clear that that is as high as you go. Then get on your bike and look at other stuff.
I prefer b) and in writing, which you can do with a light touch and suggest you are happy to wait for a decision.
Either way I think the owner may be an optimistic sort and (as davidjackson has said) you must be prepared to lose the boat. He may well sell it in two years time for 45k or less, but that does not help you right now.
I speak as one who overpaid for the boat I wanted, it niggles for the first 5 years and then you put it into perspective
Nauti Fox
Well-Known Member
There were several faults with the boat we were looking to buy, the boat was at Chatham, the owner in Yorkshire and was very, very slow in responding, so much so that we withdrew our offer and the deposit was immediately returned. The only other boat we considered had sold so we were left in limbo (it turned up in Chatham a week later 
) and there were none that met our requirements and budget, after a couple of weeks the brokers got in touch again saying the owner had agreed to put things right, and had contracted the work out so we lodged the deposit again.....anyway after another sea trial faults were still there so we made a final reduced offer which the owner accepted. Luckily I was able to rectify most of the problems myself.
This whole process took longer than a house sale, several months, and during that time the brokers always kept us informed and worked hard to reach a good outcome for the owner and us.
) and there were none that met our requirements and budget, after a couple of weeks the brokers got in touch again saying the owner had agreed to put things right, and had contracted the work out so we lodged the deposit again.....anyway after another sea trial faults were still there so we made a final reduced offer which the owner accepted. Luckily I was able to rectify most of the problems myself.This whole process took longer than a house sale, several months, and during that time the brokers always kept us informed and worked hard to reach a good outcome for the owner and us.
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steve yates
Well-Known Member
Not having any experience of boats at these kind of values, you can take my 2p's worth with a pinch of salt.
But then again, I have no emotional attachment nor axe to grind as I have never sold a boat and been annoyed by low offers. (which I expect are a fact of life)
If I was interested in this boat, I would be offering around 45k, I might make a cheeky offer of 40k, but I wouldn't pay any more than 50k.
The new stuff is relevant only in that it makes the boat sellable in the first instance, it's cost has nothing to do with the boats current value, and the owner is dreaming if they expect costs like that can be recouped.
The other thing I would do for perspective, is look at the cost of it's marina berth. Those payments are money pissed away for the owner now as they aren't sailing her anymore. If they are high, he will more incentivised to accept a fair offer. Fair meaning value to others, not what ownership has cost him.
But then again, I have no emotional attachment nor axe to grind as I have never sold a boat and been annoyed by low offers. (which I expect are a fact of life)
If I was interested in this boat, I would be offering around 45k, I might make a cheeky offer of 40k, but I wouldn't pay any more than 50k.
The new stuff is relevant only in that it makes the boat sellable in the first instance, it's cost has nothing to do with the boats current value, and the owner is dreaming if they expect costs like that can be recouped.
The other thing I would do for perspective, is look at the cost of it's marina berth. Those payments are money pissed away for the owner now as they aren't sailing her anymore. If they are high, he will more incentivised to accept a fair offer. Fair meaning value to others, not what ownership has cost him.
Kelpie
Well-Known Member
Like many people we were led to believe that it is a buyers' market and that your first offer should be almost embarrassingly low.
The truth may be different. In the past year we have put in two serious offers on boats, one at 82% of asking price and one at 88%. Neither offer aroused any interest whatsoever from the broker and/or owner. I did somewhat expect a followup phone call but that has never happened, and both offers were pretty much the most that we could afford to pay, so not much point in me picking up the phone to make exactly the same offer. Or is there?
The truth may be different. In the past year we have put in two serious offers on boats, one at 82% of asking price and one at 88%. Neither offer aroused any interest whatsoever from the broker and/or owner. I did somewhat expect a followup phone call but that has never happened, and both offers were pretty much the most that we could afford to pay, so not much point in me picking up the phone to make exactly the same offer. Or is there?
pagoda
Well-Known Member
We sold our 1988 boat in 2017 - for a realistic price- and she found a new owner fairly quickly. 10% discount - fine by us. She was in good nick and ready to go.
We looked at numerous (?15)) boat for our replacement. Some were dogs, some in fair order. Two of them are still on the hard for sale -at minimally altered prices from the end of 2017. We are baffled - do the owners have NO idea of how to present a boat? The answer is yes. Many lose interest totally and hang on to un-realistic prices.
Ultimately we bought our next boat in Kiel. Nice people , good boat.
We looked at numerous (?15)) boat for our replacement. Some were dogs, some in fair order. Two of them are still on the hard for sale -at minimally altered prices from the end of 2017. We are baffled - do the owners have NO idea of how to present a boat? The answer is yes. Many lose interest totally and hang on to un-realistic prices.
Ultimately we bought our next boat in Kiel. Nice people , good boat.
Concerto
Well-Known Member
When I was looking for my current yacht I was shown a boat that was priced at £21,000, but the agent said the owner would accept £17,000. I valued it at £12,000. Later I found it had been on the hard at a marina for over 3 years. Some 3 years later it was finally sold. Unfortunately the cockpit drains had become blocked and the boat filled with water, in the process the engine seized. The price was £4,100. It has been renovated and the engine overhauled, now being used and looked after. I hate to think how much it cost to keep the boat aashore, probably in the order of £12,000 to £15,000, because the owner wanted a sale at an unrealistic value.
