A thought

[B27]

Most people seem to struggle to use their boats as often as they'd like.
Another restriction, in the form of a weak motor is not going to help that.

There are some people who can match their sailing to what's plausible with e.g. an outboard auxiliary on a small yacht, but they seem to be in the minority.

I've done sailing with no engine and with weak engines, these days it would restrict my opportunities.

The other day, we set off into very little wind, knowing we could easily diesel the whole 40 miles if needed.
As it panned out, we had great sailing for 2/3rds of the distance. Which we would have not had, but for a decent engine.

 

[johnalison]

I think Charlie Stock's and perhaps your own Broads examples show that is not the case.

The other choice, beyond not going out or relying on your engine, is to let the tide and wind shape what you do with the weekend. Instead of saying 'next weekend we'll go to X and back, eating out on Saturday' night, and punching against the wind and tide to get there, you pay closer attention to the tides and to the unfolding weather, and adjust your destination and the timings of departures, where/when one eats and sleeps, etc. accordingly.

I think it's largely a matter of mindset rather than engines. We are so used to a lifestyle where we we can live by the clock and the map, unconstrained by daylight, public transport timetables, geography, weather, tides, etc. We are to some extent prisoners of our unexamined assumptions and habits.

I am certainly not saying that people should not have engines, should not make a reservation in the restaurant at harbour B for Saturday night, just pointing out that it is largely our expectations, rather than the need to be at work on Monday, that makes us so reliant on our engines.

Modern forecasting has made an immense change to cruising generally. It should now be possible to set off for the weekend with reasonable assurance that one’s return trip is assured, but not entirely. I still think that cruising life without an engine is likely to be substantially restricted for the average working sailor. As I hope I have indicated, I am all in favour of a free approach to cruising, in which putting oneself in the hands of the weather gods is a major part. In fact, I like to take a loose view of planning generally. If asked where I am going, I might reply that I was heading for wherever, but how and in what time would certainly not be decided. I have known people who could tell you where they would be each week of a three-month cruise and where and when the crew changes would occur (that’s you, Mike), whereas it was always up to our crew to find us, with no guarantee where they would be dropped.

Our lives are often so ordered that I look to sailing to introduce a random element that we often miss. I get the impression that many coming into sailing are control freaks and want to take this unfortunate character on holiday with them, for which a dirty great engine becomes essential.

 

[john_morris_uk]

It is something of a luxury, an indulgence, to look at the sea, the wind and the sky - and shape one's day accordingly.

One of my pleasures, on going aboard, was removal of my wristwatch.

I wish..! Unfortunately I usually (in the UK) need to know the time of tidal flow or height.

 

[johnalison]

I wish..! Unfortunately I usually (in the UK) need to know the time of tidal flow or height.

Not a problem for me. My tidal calculations are accurate to the nearest couple of hours.

 

[srm]

It is something of a luxury, an indulgence, to look at the sea, the wind and the sky - . . . .

As is owning a boat for private leisure use.

 

[zoidberg]

I wonder if leisure sailors will take to the seas to escape the shear drudgery.... and go sailing without access to stuff..... just to be free from tech.

It's a lot of years back, now, but back in the day when I was a fervent rock-climber and with seven or eight years' experience on Scottish hills, I chose one day to go up into Coire Laggan/Skye without the expected 'bible' of a Routes Guidebook, and just picked out a line up the 2000' bare rockface and, with my mate, just climbed it.

We were reliant on our experience and judgement to make good decisions, which worked out well.

It raises the question - as does RunAgroundHard - of how dependent we've let ourselves become on devices/kit and the decisions of others, while permitting our own skills of judgement to atrophy through disuse.

The prospect of nosing one's way carefully into an uncharted ( unavailable? ) inlet somewhere remote is intriguing.

I'm sure Ould Man Cunliffe would have something to say on the subject.

 

[KevinV]

I wonder if leisure sailors will take to the seas to escape the shear drudgery of a life where AI gives expert opinion at the drop of a hat and go sailing without access to stuff, maybe not even wearing lifejackets, just to be free from tech.

Judging by the speed of uptake of electronic plotters I'm guessing is more likely to be "Navvy, plot me a course from a to b via c, leaving at noon" - then we'll really have no clue where we actually are.

 

[john_morris_uk]

It's a lot of years back, now, but back in the day when I was a fervent rock-climber and with seven or eight years' experience on Scottish hills, I chose one day to go up into Coire Laggan/Skye without the expected 'bible' of a Routes Guidebook, and just picked out a line up the 2000' bare rockface and, with my mate, just climbed it.

We were reliant on our experience and judgement to make good decisions, which worked out well.

It raises the question - as does RunAgroundHard - of how dependent we've let ourselves become on devices/kit and the decisions of others, while permitting our own skills of judgement to atrophy through disuse.

The prospect of nosing one's way carefully into an uncharted ( unavailable? ) inlet somewhere remote is intriguing.

I'm sure Ould Man Cunliffe would have something to say on the subject.

I agree. I’m getting cheesed off with explaining to people that just because there isn’t a little anchor symbol on the chart and it’s not mentioned in a pilot book doesn’t mean you can’t anchor behind that headland or in that cove.

 

[srm]

It raises the question - as does RunAgroundHard - of how dependent we've let ourselves become on devices/kit and the decisions of others, while permitting our own skills of judgement to atrophy through disuse.

Yes, doing a MN electronic nav and radar course at South Shields the instructors used to keep making the point that "the real world is outside the bridge windows". Something that I also found needed to be pushed when teaching / instructing especially once chart plotters came in to use. In the sailing world the equivalent was "you can not skipper/sail the boat from the chart table".

 

[zoidberg]

Yes, doing a MN electronic nav and radar course at South Shields the instructors used to keep making the point that "the real world is outside the bridge windows". Something that I also found needed to be pushed when teaching / instructing especially once chart plotters came in to use. In the sailing world the equivalent was "you can not skipper/sail the boat from the chart table".

"Navigation is done between the ears, not on a chartplotter."

 

[srm]

Someone thinking outside the box seen in Angra today. Not a "recomended" anchorage, but no doubt very pleasant as we are in the middle of the Azores High.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Wonder how many boats have been re-engined with smaller engines than the original fitted? I'd wager tending to zero. These days we can have reasonably powerful engines in our cruising sail boats, apart from bragging rights about the difficulties associated with tiny auxilliary engines what exactly is the point of a gutless engine? Maybe in a pure racing boat where use of the engine is just to get in and out of the marina, but on a cruising boat it's daft to deliberately fit an undersized engine IMO.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I agree. I’m getting cheesed off with explaining to people that just because there isn’t a little anchor symbol on the chart and it’s not mentioned in a pilot book doesn’t mean you can’t anchor behind that headland or in that cove.

Please stop doing this .... it's better when everyone else thinks that there needs to be an anchor symbol or an entry in the pilot book.

 

[johnalison]

Wonder how many boats have been re-engined with smaller engines than the original fitted? I'd wager tending to zero. These days we can have reasonably powerful engines in our cruising sail boats, apart from bragging rights about the difficulties associated with tiny auxilliary engines what exactly is the point of a gutless engine? Maybe in a pure racing boat where use of the engine is just to get in and out of the marina, but on a cruising boat it's daft to deliberately fit an undersized engine IMO.

I am often surprised at the size of engines people will install, such as 18hp in a Centaur. I suppose that modern engines are light enough for weight not to be a factor, but one result is that the engines are often not worked hard enough, especially if motor-sailing is a major factor.

 

[DanTribe]

When I first got a cruising boat in the 1970s, I asked an older club member where he planned to go for his holiday.
He said it depended on the wind once he left the river. Some years west country, some years Holland.

 

[zoidberg]

Quite some years ago, a friend with an 'Antigua' catamaran in Liverpool wanted to 'get some miles in' and asked me to take them ( him/it ) to Spain. Loaded up with twice-baked bread and other cruisie goodies, we headed down river and into Liverpool Bay, where I stuck my finger in the air, looked at the clouds high and low and decided we'd 'go out the North Channel'.... just like the sailing masters of old.

We went round the top of Ireland and out into the Atlantic, all trad nav, until the last mountain tops of Donegal slipped under the horizon..... then turned south. A week of astro,* and 'lead, log and lookout' later, we raised the great lighthouses on the high coast above La Coruna.

Beers beckoned!

* did I mention the whales...?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

When I first got a cruising boat in the 1970s, I asked an older club member where he planned to go for his holiday.
He said it depended on the wind once he left the river. Some years west country, some years Holland.

For us, that is still very much the case. Though it also works in reverse, if there’s a decent easterly, some frantic packing occurs and we’ll head west, in the sure and certain knowledge of Salvation for the return trip.

 

[johnalison]

For us, that is still very much the case. Though it also works in reverse, if there’s a decent easterly, some frantic packing occurs and we’ll head west, in the sure and certain knowledge of Salvation for the return trip.

That is why in many years cruising from the East Coast while I was working, a Channel cruise was always a more relaxing option than the Netherlands. Although the sailing was more exposed, one's return could be almost guaranteed.

 

[dancrane]

So many good points have been made in this thread.

Lyn Pardy: "...no hard and fast schedule."

Even in the UK, there must be plenty of agreeable weather and consecutive days of favourable winds, if you needn't be home after the weekend.

It must be deeply rewarding to rely on one's weather sense and knowledge of tidal streams and anchorages etc., to sail using only wind and tide, gypsying unhurriedly along the coast without running an engine at all, anchoring when it's contrary and seeing a bit of the shore, then making the most of fair winds. I mean, with an engine, for tight spots and emergencies, but voluntarily never treating it as a mindless short-cut.

As far as tech goes, I'm so surrounded by it every day, I know I'll want to clear all but the most basic kit off any boat I buy next. Three-quarters of the charm of sailing for me is the timeless stuff that's never changed. Brokers' boasts of updated electronics and photos of dials and screens are lost on me - I'd rip them out and flog them on the forum. I still want to convert a Corribee to gaff cutter rig. With oil lamps.

But as long as I work, I'll only ever have a few days at a time to go sailing, and far fewer days in weather when I want to be sailing. The dreadful upshot is, I'm concluding that the absolute opposite of the Pardys' outlook makes most sense - a boat driven only by engine or engines. This month I had a close look at a motorsailer I had thought I wanted. It was really nice but with its displacement hull, I'd never have time to get out of the Solent.

All of which makes me wonder why so many of the yachts with retired owners I've berthed near, barely ever seemed to go sailing. Lots of yachts seem to be christened Carpe Diem, but the only 'seizing' is their permanent mooring lines.
.
EDIT: Pardy, not Purdey.

 

[benjenbav]

I am often surprised at the size of engines people will install, such as 18hp in a Centaur. I suppose that modern engines are light enough for weight not to be a factor, but one result is that the engines are often not worked hard enough, especially if motor-sailing is a major factor.

A few days ago I was reading a survey on outboard type and use on the Cornish Shrimper Owners Association website. 5 or 6 hp models being the norm with a few smaller.

One owner had gone for the heady power of an 8hp engine only to find that the tiller would not clear the engine cover.