Newbie - sterndrives or amateur root canal treatment?

[Momac]

Interested please tell us more.

Not very exciting . Boat at the marina was left at its home berth with the legs raised.
Owner went home to order new relays for the leg trim pumps.
Returned a week later to find the stern down . The bellows under tension due to the legs being raised had failed.
Fortunately the water did not enter the living accommodation but water did get into the engine sumps / starter motors/ alternators.

 

[Fire99]

I have an AMT 200 cuddy with a 150 VTEC outboard.

It's freshwater flushed after every trip, the leg is full out of the water with only a third of the transom bracket in the water.

It stays afloat 364.5 days a year.

On the half day it's pulled out on the trailer for a leg oil and engine oil change.

I don't change the impeller annually either as I have sufficient data coming from the engine to determine if it's failing.

Fuel filter is inspected and emptied to check if water ingress but not necessarily replaced annually.

My point is that modern outboards are cheap to service and fuel efficient and are certainly becoming much more popular.

Not many boats for sale at Sibs in the sub 30ft had outdrives either.

I think 40+ knots from the AMT is sporty too....

I'm quite a fan of outboards generally, (My post of experience was more to point out that issues arise with all drive types) and after a fair time of being out of vogue they do seem to be making quite the comeback with much larger boats finding ways to package very large outboards on the transom.

Though (with my tin hat on) I'm sad to see the end of the 2-strokes in larger motors. I thought the Evinrude E-TEC was a cool concept, even if (to me) excessive emission controls did make them over fussy in my book.

I wonder with the advancement of 4-stroke outboard powerheads and the now complexity of car engines which would be the basis of a sterndrive motor, has pushed the outboard drive.. Just riffing here as it is interesting how outboards are certainly on the up again.

 

[Fire99]

An ideal engine for a 20ft cuddy cabin.

But would you want petrol outboard power for a circa 40ft cruiser (which is what this thread is about)? I certainly wouldn't.

Well I have seen the Regal 42 flybridge running triple Yamaha 425hp outboards. They're coming to the 'big boys'...

 

[Greg2]

I met the owner of an older Princess on shaft drive ,based in the same marina as me.
He required a new gearbox. He told me the gearbox had cost him £10k.

But to be fair such instances are rare and in comparison an outdrive is more likely to require major works or replacement than an inboard gearbox.

 

[Grubble]

But to be fair such instances are rare and in comparison an outdrive is more likely to require major works or replacement than an inboard gearbox.

And to be even fairer, outdrives aren't expensive to repair or replace, as spares are easy to come by. Unlike MS 3/4 gearboxes which I'm told are difficult to even find someone to repair them.

Some forumites even keep a spare gearbox in the garage, just in case this very unlikely, super rare event does what super rare events always do and actually happens.

 

[ari]

Well I have seen the Regal 42 flybridge running triple Yamaha 425hp outboards. They're coming to the 'big boys'...

Yup, and bigger. But the question asked was, would you want one here in the UK?

 

[Hot Property]

And what was the average price of those boats at SIBS? Obviously if you have the luxury of being able to afford a brand new boat, you can get one with any kind of drive system you want, but if you are buying second hand, you can only buy the boat that is on the market. You were very lucky to find your AMT200, but still I'm sure it was substantially more expensive than you could have found a similar boat with an outdrive.

You also have to look at the future if you ever need to replace the engine - as I mentioned above, you can get a factory remanufactured 4.3 long block for £4,000 or brand new for £5,000. How much is a new 150hp outboard? £15,000? You can also buy the SEI Mercruiser replacement sterndrives for around £2000 brand new.

In other words, there is no simple answer to which is best - the best one is the one you can find on the market, that you can afford to buy and run.

Yes it was more expensive than the equivalent stern drive boats on the market.

As the boat is on the water constantly the fact I can lift the engine clear is a major bonus.

Additionally, I get a bit more cockpit and storage space with the outboard.

Another benefit is towing. A stern drive 20ft cuddy requires a twin axle trailer which in turn puts the gross weight of the boat/trailer above most family saloons so land rover/ disco territory.

I refuse to buy a 4wd for occasional towing. I use my diesel Mondeo which doubles as my caravan towcar.

I have also applied Silic one which means I just wash off a bit of slime when I service the engine.

It lasted 4 seasons on my last sports cruiser and just needed another coat but I sold her...

Much better than antifoul and I save on lifts/ chocking off too.

It won't suit everyone because you need 20+ knots to keep it clean, but it works for me.

You are right, new outboard boats are expensive, but they will trickle down into the market eventually.

The AMT is Finnmaster quality so I expected to pay a premium.

Honda's regularly last 5,000 hours as well, so as long as they are maintained correctly (which is cheap as chips compared to Volvo prices), I don't expect to have to replace it.

Under £15k you can get a very nice stern drive cuddy, but if kept on the water the maintenance cost will add up...

Having said all that, I've just bought a Maxim 1700 sports cuddy with a 100 Yamaha 4 stroke on a trailer for £8,300 on behalf of my brother and whilst it needs some fettling it's a great first sea boat for him.

 

[Hot Property]

I'm quite a fan of outboards generally, (My post of experience was more to point out that issues arise with all drive types) and after a fair time of being out of vogue they do seem to be making quite the comeback with much larger boats finding ways to package very large outboards on the transom.

Though (with my tin hat on) I'm sad to see the end of the 2-strokes in larger motors. I thought the Evinrude E-TEC was a cool concept, even if (to me) excessive emission controls did make them over fussy in my book.

I wonder with the advancement of 4-stroke outboard powerheads and the now complexity of car engines which would be the basis of a sterndrive motor, has pushed the outboard drive.. Just riffing here as it is interesting how outboards are certainly on the up again.

4 stroke outboards are well developed now and as an example, the 150 Honda VTEC uses the Accord 2.4 litre engine which has sold in the millions.

Mercury are also pretty good, I had a Gen 1 Verado 200 on my 24 ft boat (profile pic).

Supercharged straight 6 - it was addictive.

I've had all sorts of outboards but not an Etec or Optimax.

A friend has and they shift!

But quite expensive and complex so he's now got a Tohatsu 150 (rebadged Honda VTEC)....

I help to organise an annual rally of about 25 sports boats and the ones breaking down are predominantly stern drives I'm afraid...,

 

[Sticky Fingers]

@Colvic Watson would be good to learn what boat or boats you’re looking at. The thread has opened up some interesting views and suggestions.

 

[Greg2]

And to be even fairer, outdrives aren't expensive to repair or replace, as spares are easy to come by. Unlike MS 3/4 gearboxes which I'm told are difficult to even find someone to repair them.

Some forumites even keep a spare gearbox in the garage, just in case this very unlikely, super rare event does what super rare events always do and actually happens.

Yep, I agree and as I said at #4 I am not anti-drives having owned three boats with them but I do acknowledge that they are more likely to give you a bit of grief than shaft drive boats. They can usually be fixed for a price you might not like but can live with but the inconvenience of getting lifts and someone to do the work can sometimes be a bit of a phaff.

Now I’m off to find a spare gearbox to store in the garage…….
.

 

[Grubble]

Under £15k you can get a very nice stern drive cuddy, but if kept on the water the maintenance cost will add up...

Having said all that, I've just bought a Maxim 1700 sports cuddy with a 100 Yamaha 4 stroke on a trailer for £8,300 on behalf of my brother and whilst it needs some fettling it's a great first sea boat for him.

The AMT200 looks like a really nice boat, especially with the ouboard - it sounds perfect for the way you are going to be using it. £8,300 for a 100 HP Yamaha is a bargain- especially if they threw in a trailer and a Maxum - now all he needs to do is find a better hull to put that engine on.

 

[Hot Property]

The AMT200 looks like a really nice boat, especially with the ouboard - it sounds perfect for the way you are going to be using it. £8,300 for a 100 HP Yamaha is a bargain- especially if they threw in a trailer and a Maxum - now all he needs to do is find a better hull to put that engine on.

Ha yes!

This is my brothers first sea boat and coming from the Thames he needs to learn the ropes of high speed boating in company. This is ideal as he can find out what he really wants in a boat and will probably shift it for not much less that he paid for it.

the Yammy is the same powerhead that Mercury used in their 75-115hp engines - the first foray into 4 strokes.

It's a carb 4 cyl unit and I've had 2 previous Mercury 75 versions.

Carbs have been ultrasonically cleaned and there's not a lot to go wrong.

I've owned a Fletcher 19 GTO sports cruiser with a great hull but they are quite rare to find these days.....

 

[oldgit]

This thread still running ?
bit like the MS3/4/5 and its descendants.
MS series was introduced sometime in 1970 and 100s of thousands of them ? are probably still in use today.
Unlike the Devils Anchors they do not require the boat to come out of the water to do servicing or repairs.
Any outdrive boat of the same period fitted with a pair of " Aluminium Handcuffs" will have been out of the water a minimum of 25 times, 25 lifts 25 sets of rubber plus gearshift seals, propshaft seals, rams, steering forks, 25 tins of expensive Trilux A/F.........ad infinitum...
Thats an awful lot money spent on rubber and as for totting up the time spent ashore.
MS Spare Gearbox stories. All of those boxes are or were sitting in the garages of members of my cruising club , they have been there for around a decade ,quietly gathering dust, your outdrives will have been out of the water on at least 5 occasions over the same period.
Have assisted 3 or four boats on our moorings who have have suffered shaft drive gearbox problems, all repairs could of course be done in the water.
To be fair have assisted one boat up to the slings on no less than...lets call it 3 or 4 times , to get the same set of outdrives fixed.

 

[julians]

Any outdrive boat of the same period fitted with a pair of " Aluminium Handcuffs" will have been out of the water a minimum of 25 times, 25 lifts 25 sets of rubber plus gearshift seals, propshaft seals, rams, steering forks, 25 tins of expensive Trilux A/F.........ad infinitum...

The number of lifts is a bit of a red herring isn't it, as any boat kept on the sea is going to need a yearly lift for new antifoul anyway? Unless of course it doesn't go anywhere, in which case the owner would be much better with a caravan.

As others have said, buy the boat that best fits your needs regardless of drive system, ie don't let drive system dictate the boat.

Stern drives are fine, outboard are fine, shafts are fine. Buy whichever best fits your specific set of constraints.

If money was no object (but in reality money is always a consideration) , and the boat I wanted was available with all 3 options (in reality it rarely is) , then I'd choose outboard.

 

[ari]

Yes it was more expensive than the equivalent stern drive boats on the market.

As the boat is on the water constantly the fact I can lift the engine clear is a major bonus.

Additionally, I get a bit more cockpit and storage space with the outboard.

Another benefit is towing. A stern drive 20ft cuddy requires a twin axle trailer which in turn puts the gross weight of the boat/trailer above most family saloons so land rover/ disco territory.

I refuse to buy a 4wd for occasional towing. I use my diesel Mondeo which doubles as my caravan towcar.

I have also applied Silic one which means I just wash off a bit of slime when I service the engine.

It lasted 4 seasons on my last sports cruiser and just needed another coat but I sold her...

Much better than antifoul and I save on lifts/ chocking off too.

It won't suit everyone because you need 20+ knots to keep it clean, but it works for me.

You are right, new outboard boats are expensive, but they will trickle down into the market eventually.

The AMT is Finnmaster quality so I expected to pay a premium.

Honda's regularly last 5,000 hours as well, so as long as they are maintained correctly (which is cheap as chips compared to Volvo prices), I don't expect to have to replace it.

Under £15k you can get a very nice stern drive cuddy, but if kept on the water the maintenance cost will add up...

Having said all that, I've just bought a Maxim 1700 sports cuddy with a 100 Yamaha 4 stroke on a trailer for £8,300 on behalf of my brother and whilst it needs some fettling it's a great first sea boat for him.

I'll try again...

An ideal engine for a 20ft cuddy cabin.

But would you want petrol outboard power for a circa 40ft cruiser (which is what this thread is about)? I certainly wouldn't.

 

[simonfraser]

I'll try again...

An ideal engine for a 20ft cuddy cabin.

But would you want petrol outboard power for a circa 40ft cruiser (which is what this thread is about)? I certainly wouldn't.

yeh, i'd want 2 or 3 outboards on that kida size

 

[ian38_39]

I met the owner of an older Princess on shaft drive ,based in the same marina as me.
He required a new gearbox. He told me the gearbox had cost him £10k.

No idea what happened to them but a boat I have just bought is a 2001 that has had two outdrive legs replaced in 2022. Happy to have new dp-e drives on this. ( out of water for last 12 months) but have had mercruiser and Volvo DP290s on previous boats, one we owned for 12 years. Never had a major issue, just a seal change due to fishing line.
My other boat had shafts and while simpler there are definitely still things that can go wrong, packing glands, cutlass bearings, p brackets etc.
Different boats suit different drives but I wouldn't be put off either.

 

[Hot Property]

I'll try again...

An ideal engine for a 20ft cuddy cabin.

But would you want petrol outboard power for a circa 40ft cruiser (which is what this thread is about)? I certainly wouldn't.

I'd like the option.

If I spent 6 months cruising I'd want diesel on shafts.

If I just wanted to pop down to Colwell bay for lunch at the hut then outboards make sense....

 

[Fire99]

Just a random slight thread drift here but IPS's have become very popular and they add new opportunities for complexity AND leaks from the hull glands.. To me they make sterndrives look like a hammer and chisel by comparison..

It's interesting how many boaters go for another option that adds a lot more complexity and leak potential, in the name of features..

 

[ari]

I'd like the option.

If I spent 6 months cruising I'd want diesel on shafts.

If I just wanted to pop down to Colwell bay for lunch at the hut then outboards make sense....

But if you just wanted to pop down to Colwell bay for lunch at the hut then surely a boat like you have makes more sense still?

My point being, whilst outboards absolutely have their place (your own boat being a perfect example), and yes, Americans seem to love a big long rack of them on the transom of a big boat, they're not ideal for the sort of boat that the OP is talking about in the UK.

Too thirsty (considering UK dock prices for petrol), rather noisy when you're considering a rack of them (compared to a pair of diesels sunk deep into the hull) as they're pretty much in the cockpit with you (the Regal 42 mentioned above has three of them at 425hp each!), and they put a huge amount of weight very high up on the transom. When you get to the size and power needed to propel a 40ft cruiser then that kind of weight needs placing deep in the hull. (Shaft drive is best for weight distribution as it puts them forward as well, but at least sterndrives puts them forward of the transom and low down).

Horses for courses of course, but as you say yourself, if you actually want to go anywhere, rather than just to The Hut (which is the point of a 40ft cruiser for most people), then it's really got to be diesel in the UK.