A statement on behalf of the defence

[Twister_Ken]

It has been alleged elsewhere that I may be going soft on the appalling average white boats that pop, like hamburger boxes, out of moulds in various mid-European industrial estates.

To those allegators I wish to make clear that my suggestion that Mister Steve101 might consider such a euroyot was based on the fact that the aforementioned gent has not the sagacity to appreciate that only vessels in the size range he has nominated which should be on his shopping list are the Vancouver 38 (pilot house or cockpit version) or the Rustler 42. Lowering his sights slightly he might also consider the appropriately sized products from our Scandiwegian neighbours, Hallberg Rassy, Malo and Najad but certainly not Swan.

As he appears committed to buying a caravan, he ought therefore to be guided towards what has proven itself, over some time, to be one of the more accomplished caravans on the market, the Benny 411, or its centre-cockpitted sister, the 42cc. It was with this in mind that I made my rather outre suggestion.

In offering this advice, which is worth exactly what Steve101 has paid for it, I in no way subscribe to the theory that BenJenBavs are objects of desire.

As to the suggestion that a Twister is wet (trenchfoot indeed) that can only have been made by some spotty youth who has no idea what a proper bilge looks like, not indeed the difficulty of recovering something which has fallen into it!

And while the Twister may be reluctant to motor backwards in a straight line, she will do so in a graceful arc. The art lies in positioning oneself so that the arc becomes the line you wish to steer, thereby fooling oneself and the specatator into believing that you are in control.

Haruumph.

 

[JeremyF]

Legendary Ken

If only everything in life was a consistant as your opinions, Ken.

Life would be boring if everyone had the same opinion and experience.

Glad you've seen the funny side.

You must be annoyed that upstart Steve101 has stolen the limelight recently. He's at the other end of the scale from you.

<font color=blue>Jeremy Flynn/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif
Dawn Chorus</font color=blue>

 

[Steve101]

Re: Legendary Ken

I shall be offering my opinion as an EXPERT witness later on. For now be warned I shall have partaken of the odd drop of alcohol when I return!

 

[jimi]

Legend or Bender?

Woeful it is to see a recent convert backsliding, here we are concentrating on Stevie babe to ensure he keeps on the straight and narrow and doe'snt succumb to the Babylonish temptations of Sunseeker et al. , Ken repents and joins the main body of the kirk and then promptly sods off again to enjoy(sic) his own brand of twisted sectarianism.

Alas alack and all that, I was hoping that Ken might buy a Beneteau in which case I was really looking forward to him changing his soubriquet to BENDER_KEN !!!!

Jim

 

[zefender]

Re: yes but Ken....

you haven't explained what you were doing on a Legend. Come on Ken, admit it, you were swaying weren't you (and that's nothing to do with the idea of its motion at sea!)

I bet there was thunder and lightening the moment you stepped aboard.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: yes but Ken....

Only once have I been aboard a Legend, which was a friend's boat on the Clyde. It had a perfectly lovely microwave oven and combination TV/VCR, but bugger-all forestay tension, which meant that going to windward we were embarrased by small children sailing bath tubs.

The best bit about the trip was getting near enough to a nuclear sub for the MOD police boat to slap it down into third gear and come scooting across towards us. We tacked when they were about 50 yards away, as if we hadn't noticed them. You could almost sense their disappointment that we weren't going to do a Greenpeace, so that they could belabour us with their rubber truncheons.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: Legend or Bender?

>Ken might buy a Beneteau<

Pigs might fly

(err, hang-on, what about police helicopters?)

 

[nicho]

Evening Ken, notice from your bio you do not state the make of your boat - for all of us poor foolish and unfortunate individuals who have had the timerity to buy something modern from France or Germany, perhaps you can enlighten us! Cheers

 

[Twister_Ken]

Make - well the GRP was moulded by Tylers, and the fit out was done by Hartley Marine of Hoo.

Both now gone,

But the class (in both senses of the word!) is a Twister

Check http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/h38502.htm for details (not my boat, which is nicer than the one shown there!)

 

[Ohdrat]

I in no way subscribe to the theory that BenJenBavs are objects of desire.
I wouldn't class the Jens with the Bens and Bavs .. they're better than those caravan classes (yes I mostly agree with you) Especially the sunfizz models.. really quite impressive sea keeping and sailing qualities and really seamanlike layout too

 

[Jeremy_W]

That's more like it Ken. Normal service resumed. I was half expecting you to start praising linear galleys!

 

[Ohdrat]

nicho.. its a Twister.. hence his nickname.. they're superb boats .. long narrow and with serious seakeeping and windward performance.. oh and the long keel.. and yes I am extremely envious

 

[nicho]

Thanks for the reply Ken - I'm sorry, I'm fairly new to this sailing lark, and I've never heard of any of the moulders/yards/component suppliers that contributed to the assembly of your boat. I'm sure it's a fine vessel, extremely seaworthy and suits a very experienced sailor as yourself. I would however in no way go on the offensive to try to denigrate your pride and joy, even though it is probably not to the tastes of many other people who buy boats. So why do so many experienced guys such as yourself enjoy having a dig at such people as myself who prefer more modern boats, and get what we consider to be excellant value for money. Such boats incidentally that many thousands of others must also enjoy owning, and who find the product more than acceptable, indeed a joy to own. For sure there are boats that will take care of us better in a really bad weather situations, but I would estimate some 98% plus of boat owners will never find themselves in such dire situations, and are happy to put up with the quality deficiencies to be found in production boats to be able to own a smart modern boat that does just the job we want it to. I run a new Mercedes and an equally Vauxhall Astra. The Merc is of superb quality, the Astra less so. However, the Astra serves its purpose very well, and I for one would never try to put down otherowners of these perhaps more run of the mill cars - it's what they have chosen. I can afford to spend much more than the £70K I am spending on a Bavaria 36. I buy it fully aware of what it is and its imperfections, but for our cruising needs it is fine. With the three "dreaded" Manufacturers you and others bang on about selling many thousands of boats every year, who has hold of the wrong end if the stick?

After many years of running expensive motor cruisers, I am new to the sailing thing, and I have received a lot of fine advice on this forum from those such as yourself that are vastly more experienced that myself, but please stop insinuating we are a bunch of idiots who really don't know what we are about. Or are you really softening the line a little as has been suggested! Cheers Ken, and best wishes.

 

[tcm]

My garden is a bit vauxhall, and I have an equally vauxhall back gate.

 

[Twister_Ken]

This is going to sound like bullshit, but I\'m sincere. Honest

Nicho,

Such a well argued p-o-v deserves a considered response and not my normal tongue-firmly-in-cheek nonsense. But before I begin, let me say I've never got the sense behind trying to compare boats and cars. Maybe that's just because I get no pleasure out of cars - for me they are tools (to be avoided whenever possible) without souls.

Boats are different. Boats should have souls. Some do, others don't. Where that soul comes from is, I suspect, primarily from the passion and pride of the people that design and build them, and that soul is sustained and enhanced by the good feelings the boat engenders in those who later sail in her. But the boat itself also creates soul of its own, by the exemplary way it behaves in storm and calm, by the way light catches it so that it catches your heart, by the way it creates joy.

When I had the privilege to take a close look at Flica II, a William Fife 12 metre from 1938 (some pix at http://www.flica.de/season2002.php) she brought tears of joy, she took my breath away, she enriched my life.

Now, not for one moment would I dispute that a modern benjenbav (and Dufour, Hunter Legend, Dehler, Gibsea, Elan, Hanse, etc) is not an adequate sailing machine in most conditions that she is likely to be sailed in ) but I cannot sail one and find in her any soul. She will not touch my heart (and I've sailed enough of them to know that's true for me). She will not gve me back something in return for what I give her.

That's the emotional side of my concerns about modern mass production yachts. It's similar in some ways to drinking your coffee out of a craftsman potter's mug, rather than a machine made one. It goes beyond a question of function and becomes one of not necessarily beauty but visual and tactile wholeness.

So, having got that over with, my other real point of criticism of the modern yacht is that their design and build comes from the inside out, rather than the outside in. Accommodation is a prime driver in euroyot design because the builders know that the 'living space' experience is what clinches most deals. and so they attempt to recreate a lightly marinised version of the home. Which, at anchor in a sheltered creek or tied to a marina is admirable.

But a boat is not, like a home, a creature of the land. it is (should be) a sea bird. She should be designed from the outside-in to fit the sea, to ride the wind and in doing so to delight the eye. She shouldn't, because of her high topsides (headroom), broad beam (living space) and flat bottom (headroom from bow to stern), try to batter the waves into submission. She should swoop and soar and ride the waves in co-operation with wind and water.

She shouldn't, when pressed by a gust of wind, dig in her broad backside (two aft double cabins) and lever her rudder out of the water so that she rounds up and shakes the wind like a dog with a rat. She should just heel a little further, put her shoulder into the wave, let a little water slither along the side deck, and hold her course.

She shouldn't when anchored or moored, slap down every ripple with her transom (bathing platform with a shower), creating a noise that keeps her crew awake. She should rock and bob slowly to the rhythm of the ripples, cradling her crew.

She shouldn't, when asked to heave to, behave like a nervous horse, bucking and swaying and refusing to settle. She should accept the pause gracefully, bobbing like a cork over the waves while keeping her attitude and position steady.

The inside-out philosophy of the modern mass market yacht doesn't create a well tempered, well mannered thoroughbred. Rather it creates an industrialised seagoing quasi-home, which is often unsympathetic with its environment.

That's why I don't like them.

 

[Guest]

Ken, we had two Twisters one after the other. Great boats. We still point them out to this day. All the best.

 

[Guest]

Re: This is going to sound like bullshit, but I\'m sincere. Honest

..brought tears to my eyes.

Agree with your sentiments and would prefer a Twister, Vertue, Stella etc., to those modern plastic things (a lot cheaper as well!). Luckily there are still a lot of people around who appreciate the qualities of classic yachts just as with classic cars.

 

[Guest]

Re: This is going to sound like bullshit, but I\'m sincere. Honest

Ken,
A few months ago I would have thought you were off your trolly, putting up with uncomfortable etc etc. However on our annual binge of playing yottie we were weather bound in Dartmouth for a few days... We were entertained, most royally, on a wooden gentlemens motor yacht. It had a feel like no other. I think my Moody 38 is great it does everything I ask of it in light winds and in a blow (only in a near gale so far) but the atmosphere of the wooden boat comes back to haunt me. Will I do something about it immediately - no because the Moody is realtively low maintenance BUT my next boat whenever that might be will be wood and if we are both able bodied at that time gaff rigged or if not then a classic motor yacht probably a Silver, complete with bath!!!!

I understand where you are coming from.

Pete

 

[zefender]

Re: Well said

A very nicely crafted, elegant piece of prose. I agree entirely with most of what you say. At issue is whether many people would take such an uncompromising approach to boat design and therefore instead put up with the slamming motion etc because the living conditions down below are so much better in a modern design, apart from the motion itself. I manage happy times with the family just because we can sail about, eat well and enable a soap fan daughter to watch her nightly fix on the TV. It's all about being 'fit for purpose'. Your purpose is very singular (and there's nothing wrong with that). My agenda is a bit broader - but it doesn't make my boat, better or worse than yours - just different.

Time these days, is the enemy of most of us. Anything that makes it easier for me to spend time on a boat, the better. That might mean heating to extend the season, a decent fridge, to minimise grocery shops, proper sized heads with showers - simply making it comfortable enough so that my wife will opt to go to the boat at the weekend, as opposed to Brent Cross. And I quite like it too!

I did find myself agreeing about the 'personality point' at first. But I think it is inevitable that a boat, when alongside so many others that look (or are) identical, seems bland and characterless. Time will tell whether they develop little nuances, as their owners customise here and there. Certainly, in my own case, after a two month trip to the Algarve and back, I felt the boat did develop something of a personality and I increasingly found myself referring to 'her' more as a 'her' than an 'it'. Sure, she did bob and and down a bit, rather violently at times, griped up when overcanvassed - but that's her way. Most of the time, she was tearing along at over 7 knots, having a ball. And when she was parked in the marina, just a flick of the wheel and she did it, as if on autopilot. These boats are very, very easy to live with. And I think that's why euroyot brands have outlived many of the trad yards, now gone. Vive la difference.

 

[Grehan]

Ken

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