a "small" problem with a Volvo D3

[BartW]

have alway's been very happy and exited about my pair of VP D3-190 's. about the behaviour and the reliability.
now I am punished for my enthousiasm.

end october last year, had a "fuel system" warning light after a long trip.
After this trip boat was delivered at Volvo service, for this problem and for yearly winter maintenance.
Volvo service discovered (with the Voida service computer) a "known" error message on both turbo's of both engines. TWO Turbo's were replaced under warranty and winter service was done.

a week later I was out for a trip and after a few hours cruising again a warning light: "fuel system error."
this engine wouldn't start immediatly after a stop.
finally it did start up again, but still with the fuel "warning" light on.
(yellow light= service needed but you can continue to run)

dropped the boat at volvo service, and they discovered on this engine that a fuel supply hose clip, was not well fixed, and also the fuel cocks were not of a decent quality, so that air was sucked in to the fuel system, so they also replaced both fuel cocks.
Volvo service could not test the boat under load (boat was on the trailer), but we all expected that source of trouble was found and cured.
I payed for that repair without any discussion, as it was a engine installation (Karnic) related problem.

Around X-mas
another trip, after 5 minutes at cruising speed: yellow light "fuel system error"
after 5 more minutes: red light "fuel system error" and reduced RPM to 1900RPM. (save home mode of the engine)
We were in a group and continued the trip on one and a half engine,
one engine at 1800 RPM and the other engine at 3000 RPM, cruising around 18to 20 kn in stead of normal 25-27kn.
after 40 minutes cruising, we stopped for a lunch pauze,
When we wanted to restart the cold engines, the one with the error didn't start up, so we cruised all the way back home on one engine, (app 12kn)
dropped the boat at Volvo service.

13 january: Volvo service discovered a problem with Common Rail pressure sensor and C R Pressure safety valve (had opened due to overpressure), parts had te be ordered and waiting.

20 january: before fitting new valves, they decided to test all fuel injectors, and discovered a faulty injector, parts had to be ordered and waiting.

I gave them 2 more weeks for repair and testing, as I was bussy with other things and out of the country for a while.

11/2 Volvo service admidded that, while unfitting and refitting the fuel injectores that something went wrong mechanically, "something must have been falling in one cylinder" and discovered a very loud mechanical noise when running the engine.
After discussion by them with Volvo Benelux, decision was made to replace the complete engine block, waiting for a new block from Sweden.

18/2 at this moment they are changing all add-on parts: alternator, turbo, injectors, ....(?) from the old to the new block,
repair should be finalised tomorrow, next week at the latest (if nothing else shows up).
Have not spoken directly with the engineer in charge sinds 11/2,
but the "boss" promissed me one year additional warranty on the new block, and write this on paper,
all this is done under warranty as my 2 year warranty expires in may.

now,
Ofcause I am really concerned about future reliability of this engine,
Yes I will test this very profond when the repair is finished (the Volvo engineer asked to join me with the Voida computer)

Although something went wrong while doing service (thats human) I am very pleased with the people from Volvo service center in Belgium, they are really concerned to make it all work, and gave me honest feedback (as far as I am aware ofcause)
but on the other hand I am really concerned about eventual problems in future with this engine, especially the fact that you can loose big part of a season due to such problems.

what should I insist as additional security against future problems,
both technically, and legally ?
any advice is welcome.

 

[Chris_d]

Sorryto hear of your problems, I would seek some more competent engineering advice though. To change two turbos because of a "error message" just sounds wrong and subsequent attempts to fix the problem seem to be a bit hap hazard. Your service guys sound keen but maybe not up to the job.

 

[aquatom]

It seems very strange to need two new turbos due to a fault on one engine. Although the Vodia tool is very usefull for diagnosing faults it should not be seen to give correct diagnosis of faults. All the Vodia tool can do is read data from ecus and sensors and tell you if any are behaving strangely.

There are some engineers/fitters who are all too happy to spend others money yours or Volvos by blindly fitting parts.

The high preshure fuel sensor is a common problem on these engines but can be tested before being replaced. You are fortunate in having a complete set of proven spare parts on the other engine.

With regards to future reliability the more components you have on an engine the more chances of things going wrong. My advice is to make sure they are regulary serviced by someone who knows these engines. Gone are the days where anybody with a bit of knowhow and a set of tools can work on your engines.

 

[Marsupial]

"11/2 Volvo service admidded that, while unfitting and refitting the fuel injectores that something went wrong mechanically, "something must have been falling in one cylinder" and discovered a very loud mechanical noise when running the engine.
After discussion by them with Volvo Benelux, decision was made to replace the complete engine block, waiting for a new block from Sweden."

the "something must have been falling in one cylinder" bit worries me, sounds like they dropped something into the ecylinder causing the damage, I take it they replaced a "short block" that is a block with crankshaft, camshaft and pistons in which case if they are extending the warranty on the block they are being quite generous with their warranty - it was replaced under warranty? yes??

BUT as regards the fuel system faults I would get a second opinion.

 

[gordmac]

The auto world have "silent recalls" where known (to the manufacturer) faulty stuff is replaced at service without really telling the owner anything, maybe your turbos are something like that. I would doubt the new bits will make the engine any less reliable so from that perspective I wouldn't wory.

 

[BartW]

Sorryto hear of your problems, I would seek some more competent engineering advice though. To change two turbos because of a "error message" just sounds wrong and subsequent attempts to fix the problem seem to be a bit hap hazard. Your service guys sound keen but maybe not up to the job.

Service is done by the major VP service center in Belgium (in Antwerp)you might be right, that they probably have very little experience on D3's, (more on bigger engines and trucks) but the main problem over here is that there are very few boats so very little experience compared to UK f.e.

This service center is officially appointed for Belgium by Volvo Benelux in Holland, and gets full support from them.

The decision to replace both turbo's was taken after discussion with Volvo benelux, as a result of many more error messages found in the logfile of each engine.(only to be seen with the vodia tool.) and a result of a factory decision, on a certain range of D3 engines, and had perhaps nothing to do with the fuel problem.
So after replacing the turbo's, doing winter service, clearing the engines error log file, everything seemed fine, it was only after an hour cruising that new messages came along.

 

[aquatom]

High preshure fuel sensor can cause this and a few other faults. They give erratic preshure readings but stay within opperational tollerances for a good sensor so the vodia tells you that other parts are to blame. As the failure in the sensor gets worse it will go out of tollerance and give a sensor fault.

It sounds very similar to others that have failed in the past.


Glad you are still in warranty. Imagine how much this would have cost if you had to pay for it!

 

[volvopaul]

The whole job seems to have erupted from poor build quality and not really a volvo fault.

As the fuel system has allowed air to enter the fuel lines form the tank, the m prop valve has been boucing on and off its seat for most of its life allowing a massive fluctuation in fuel pressure in the common rail, its hould remain constant but as air is mixed with fuel under high pressure it cannot do that, so the injector also fails, in my opinion volvo have been very good about it when really the builder is at fault.

Remember these engines are tested for hundreds of hours on a simulated test bed, its when they are fitted and not plumbed in correctly these problem occur.

As for the turbos, the variable vane system does not like soot and poor quality fuel, when the vane soots up it partially seizes up and because of this the correct amount of boost made should match the parameters built into the engines ecu, it cannot do that when the boost is either too low or too high, thats why it allows faults occur and for safety reasons it shuts the engine either completely down or to limp mode and allows the built in parameters of the ecu to allow the engine to continue all be it a low power output.

 

[BartW]

The whole job seems to have erupted from poor build quality and not really a volvo fault.

As the fuel system has allowed air to enter the fuel lines form the tank, the m prop valve has been boucing on and off its seat for most of its life allowing a massive fluctuation in fuel pressure in the common rail, its hould remain constant but as air is mixed with fuel under high pressure it cannot do that, so the injector also fails, in my opinion volvo have been very good about it when really the builder is at fault.

Remember these engines are tested for hundreds of hours on a simulated test bed, its when they are fitted and not plumbed in correctly these problem occur.

As for the turbos, the variable vane system does not like soot and poor quality fuel, when the vane soots up it partially seizes up and because of this the correct amount of boost made should match the parameters built into the engines ecu, it cannot do that when the boost is either too low or too high, thats why it allows faults occur and for safety reasons it shuts the engine either completely down or to limp mode and allows the built in parameters of the ecu to allow the engine to continue all be it a low power output.

thank you Volvo Paul, your comment seems perfectly right, and completely in line with some technical comments I got from the engineer in charge.
The only thing to regret is that "air" in the fuel line can create such massive consequences, and there is no "detection" for this happening.

Fully agree on Volvo's service support, until now I am more then satisfied !

nevertheless one small remark on the Volvo buyld quality; we had another hose clip not tight enough, the one of the raw water pump hose from the engine, coming loose during cruising in summer, hose came off, and almost sinking the boat. Luckyly discovered right in time,
So that ended happy and well !

thanks for sharing your comment !

 

[BartW]

The auto world have "silent recalls" where known (to the manufacturer) faulty stuff is replaced at service without really telling the owner anything, maybe your turbos are something like that.

yes they are

. I would doubt the new bits will make the engine any less reliable so from that perspective I wouldn't wory.

Thats what Volvo also told me, "you almost have a new engine with 0 hours on the counter."

thank you for posting

 

[ReneJK]

Bart,
thanks for the report , I am sorry this all happened while we were with you (hope we didnt jinx it !) and I will be checking all hose clips and ensuring they're all tight when we get our boat next month !

-Rene

 

[BartW]

Bart,
thanks for the report , I am sorry this all happened while we were with you (hope we didnt jinx it !)

for you no blame !
but one question, I believe you have a spare prop,
or even if you don't, can I have your prop for a try-out ?
With the right prop size, I believe my boat will go on to plane with a single engine, so if it works I will buy one for spare in case I need to run the boat on one engine.

 

[ReneJK]

Hi Bart
testing my prop is not problem .. but which one do you need ? left or right ?
you have 2 engines and I assume one is normal and the other counter rotation ?

I'll send you an e-mail

 

[spannerman]

The Volvo engineers don't sound very competent, any yellow light and fuel problem message should alert the mechanic to a lack of fuel to the engine either because of blocked filters or airleaks, either way it triggers a fault as the MPROP valve doesn't tolerate fluctuations in fuel supply very well.
There is no such thing as too much fuel being supplied to the pump inlet so any fuel fault code or message has to mean its a lack of fuel which as Volvopaul says can generate a host of other problems.
I've had this many times on D6's and the first thing I do is check the fuel pipe connections and then change the filters problem solved!, only had one where it was the MPROP itself.

 

[BartW]

The Volvo engineers don't sound very competent, any yellow light and fuel problem message should alert the mechanic to a lack of fuel to the engine either because of blocked filters or airleaks, either way it triggers a fault as the MPROP valve doesn't tolerate fluctuations in fuel supply very well.
There is no such thing as too much fuel being supplied to the pump inlet so any fuel fault code or message has to mean its a lack of fuel which as Volvopaul says can generate a host of other problems.
I've had this many times on D6's and the first thing I do is check the fuel pipe connections and then change the filters problem solved!, only had one where it was the MPROP itself.

Hey spannerman, thanks for your comments,
I gave only summerized information and also didn't get all technical facts yet, so it is difficult to comment on the competence of the engineers, but we know there was permanent communication with VP Holland and Sweden.
But your technical comments are perfectly in line with what we got from the engineers.

Ofcause the fact that the engine block is damaged during repair is a concern, about this I have a question that you perhaps can answer.

The enginer mentioned about difficulties to remove the fuel injectors due to corrosion between the injectors and the alu engine block.
He spoke about potential damage on the engine block while unscrewing the fuel injectors. (I still have to asc full explanation on that)

Fact is that these engines have been in a very salty environment:
- the air inlet to the engine compartment is on the back of the boat, just above the swim platform, so salt water spray may come in with the air supply (has to be modified re the engineers advice)
- last season we had a salt water hose coming loose, so a lot of salt water in the bilge, reaching the bottom of the engines, and splashing everywhere. (everything was flushed with still water the same day)

do you think this has major influence on the engine block corrosion ?
f.e; can we expect difficulty's when injectors on the second engine need replacing ?

 

[Latestarter1]

Engine troubles

Spannerman and Volvopaul are putting you on the correct track.

Suggest you ask if dealer asks Volvo to fund a complete installation review including sea trial once work is done. Unless your vessel meets Volvo installation criteria problems will surface again.

You have received poor technical support, consider this, every day over 40% of the total population of 7.5 to 12 tonne trucks in Europe that is DAF, IVECO and MAN go to work with 99.9 reliability. Until two years ago Mercedes Sprinters and all IVECO Daily vans about 65 % of all European vans, what do they all have in common, the Bosch CP3 pump with exact same MPROP valve. This is robust technology. Except in marine applications generally non manufacturer compliant fuel filtration. This should show up if proper installation review is carried out.

Sooting up of Garrett style swing vane VG turbos is an industry wide issue. They love to work, however light load part throttle operation causes a buildup of soot which jams the vanes, it has been a headache at VAG for years.

Scenario; Retired couple purchase economical diesel Golf and tickle it along at peak torque (where engines makes most soot) vanes start to stick at low mileage, when they do try a little 'tight wire' boost pressure sensor says enough and engine de-rates. Sales rep or white van man who is always beating their engine to within an inch of its life never see a problem. Walk into a VAG service dealership and techs think nothing of stripping and cleaning up a Garrett VG turbo with a Scotch Brite pad and brake cleaner.

Engines with Garrett swing vane turbos positively NEED some occasional pain to keep the vanes from sticking.

Sticking injectors, yes Bosch common rail injectors do have a habit of becoming tight in their hole ask any MB or IVECO tec, I doubt if there is any connection with being in a marine envioment, once again I would again question technical competence of the guys on the spanners.

 

[BartW]

Thank you latestarter for taking time to comment

Suggest you ask if dealer asks Volvo to fund a complete installation review including sea trial once work is done. Unless your vessel meets Volvo installation criteria problems will surface again.

in a way this has been done, this same engineer discovered the poor diesel fuel hoses and fuelcocks and replaced them. At the same time he discovered the wrong diesel pre-filters were fitted (I believe they were 10µ in stead of 2µ)or something like that.
The same engineer asked to join me with the vodia onboard, during a sea trial after the repair

Engines with Garrett swing vane turbos positively NEED some occasional pain to keep the vanes from sticking.

I would again question technical competence of the guys on the spanners.

Oh don't worry about that,
the boat is used a lot, 300hrs in two seasons, and very often tortured with scuba divers on board with their stuff, cruising at 30kn+

perhaps you're right about the competence (or experience) of the engineers, but I believe it is the best I can get in a cirkle of 200km distance, here in this boatengine technician dessert.
At least he does an effort to make things right, and is open about what happened !

but again, thank you for some usefull comments

 

[rlw]

Hi Bart,

if you need a really good tech I would recommend Mulder Motoren
http://www.muldermotoren.nl (ask for Peter) or alternative call volvo benelux direct and ask for a recommendation on your engine. I did that many years ago and was pointed in the right direction.

I know the guys you are referring to. Very helpfull but still on their learning curve for the hands on engineering of marine engines I think.

Regards

Rob

 

[BartW]

Hi Bart,

if you need a really good tech I would recommend Mulder Motoren
http://www.muldermotoren.nl (ask for Peter) or alternative call volvo benelux direct and ask for a recommendation on your engine. I did that many years ago and was pointed in the right direction.

I know the guys you are referring to. Very helpfull but still on their learning curve for the hands on engineering of marine engines I think.

Regards

Rob

Hi Rob, Thanks for your advice, will keep it in consideration. best regards

 

[AntonW]

Tying all the bits up

I think Pual and Spannerman were bang on. Air entry into fuel system causes fuel hammer which causes MPROP Valve failure pressure sensor failure and emergency pressure release valve failure. Imagine getting hammered at over 20,000 psi. Everthing is supposed to be nice and smooth. Turbo control lever would be nicely siezed by salt wate spray as they are at the back of the engine, air filter would also soaked and blocked as well as turbo and engine getting a salt water gargle. Sterndrive powersteering ram is there too and could seize. Spray injectors with anti sieze grease so that they can come out when needed. (Steel, alloy and salt water are not good mix). Spray steeing ram with same stuff if fitted. Sort clean air supply. Fuel is already done so you should be good to go.

Anton